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Old 25th November 2012, 12:26   #151
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

While a lot of you may think that the Amaze looks ugly and all manufacturers are coming up with ugly cars, I have one simple question.

Why do you guys think they are doing this?

The answer is even more simpler. It's because that what the customers want. I'm not saying they want ugly looking cars.

Let me elaborate.

A 3.9m long hatch back with a big boot priced at 8-9L is considered expensive and not VFM. Take a 6L hatch, add a boot to it and sell it at the same 8-9L price and suddenly you get a sedan that is VFM. The indian customer wants a sedan but the same customer does not want to pay for a sedan, he/she wants to pay hatch back money for a sedan.

Then you have the government that has decided to give tax benefits for cars below 4m in length, a good 12% benefit that too.

So a manufacturer has to satisfy the following criteria:

1. Has to be a sedan
2. Has to be priced similar to a premium hatch
3. Has to be within 4m to increase profitability
4. Has to have a very comfortable rear seat with good legroom
5. Has to have decent boot space

The result of satisfying all the above criteria is a quirky looking sedan with very short front overhangs, a short bonnet, an even smaller boot area and maximum cabin space.

The only sub 4m sedans you have are the Dzire, indigo eCS and now the Amaze. From the lot, the Amaze looks the best according to me. The Dzire comes second but the very short rear just ruins it for me. The older one was better.

Even the 4m+ sedans like the Manza and Etios don't look all that great. Probably the only sedan that looks even better than the hatch is the Vento but there you have to sacrifice rear space to an extent and you lose the 12% excise benefit since it's above 4m.

So if you look at it, the manufacturers don't have a choice and there's no point blaming Honda or the other manufacturers.

Also, the Amaze looks far more proportional in real life than pics. The pics accentuate the short stubby boot but in real life it's really not that bad.
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Old 25th November 2012, 12:30   #152
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Hey this is great stuff that TBHP got invited to Japan for the first drive of the Amaze. Congrats guys!

Based on the initial impressions about the looks, I kind of like it better then the Brio, it's among the very few car's that look better in it's sedan avatar then in it's original hatch avatar. The dark blue Amaze in the Thai commercial looks really good, probably the colour to buy the car in.

I will hold the opinion about the engine and other parameter's till the final car get's launched but one can already see typical Honda philosophy at work. It seems like an all rounder that does everything decently rather then doing few things excellently.
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Old 25th November 2012, 12:55   #153
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by rattandip View Post
Few things they can surely do
-Provide more features per variant than Dzire, even if its more than 25K difference, IMHO India looks at VFM rather than Cheap products
-Throw in an introductory price, Maruti trick to topple Maruti "apple cart"
-Avoid bulk bookings to ensure it doesn't go in to Taxi segment
Fully agree with "Introductory Price" . Top selling models / huge waiting periods make the OEMs GREEDY!
  • XUV5OO +1.4 lacs Ex-Delhi increased since launch from Oct'11 at 12.9 lacs to Nov'12 at 14.3 for W8 AWD)
  • New Dzire (DDis) started and where it is now (+0.3 lacs increase in Ex-Delhi since Feb'12 at 7.1 lacs ZDI to Nov'12 7.4 lacs ZDI).

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhi.kedlaya View Post
I notice from the 360 degree view of the interiors of the BRIO launched in Thailand that it doesn't have steering mounted audio controls. (source honda thailand website)

Also, unlike the per-production model driven by Viddy, the Thai website shows the AMAZE with the front bumper blackened out just like the BRIO, which looks great IMHO.

Hope Honda changes its plans and gives us steering mounted controls!
Glaring miss if no Audio controls on steering!!Why not when Brio has it even in lower variants? Should give it for India. i noticed on the Brio thread long back that SMA in Brio are NOT BACKLIT unlike in the Swift/City/Jazz.

By the way, can it be that the Alloy design (hate the one on the Thai Amaze), the Bumper being painted Body color, and the Roof Micro Antenna are the 3 exterior differentiation of Diesel variants from the Petrol variants. And since all three things are 'value ups' , maybe Honda uses them to justify more premium on Diesel over Petrol (as compared to other mfgs.)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asitkde View Post
Yes, the creases are there to spoil it for some folks, but I think they go pretty well with the personality of this car, personality as coming through from the pictures and the nicely written review.
To each his own. I liked it a lot! Honda's have never been simple looking, as against Toyota for eg. A unique exterior is key to their designs, and I think that is true for their models worldwide. I also feel that is why Honda's appeal to the young more than to the old (>40-45 yrs age group). If Fluidic is good for everyone; with so many lines; this should be good too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devsoftech View Post
Probably this will be first indian sedan by Honda which is not as aerodynamic as compared to present-past (by external looks). I do not have the official Cx value. Can someone share it
I thought it looked stubby in the pictures. However seeing videos on OD and ACI, in metal the car seems much better in motion/video than in still pics! If people feel new Dzire is sportier, they'll definitely think Amaze as 'sporty' too rather than 'mature'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devsoftech View Post
Think of a Honda Amaze catching fire, or low FE < 15 kmpl - I can see so many unpredictable things that can go bad. Hope Honda understands that and delivers on some of these challenges.
That'd be the end of the beginning of a new era for Honda India. Let's be real and optimistic about reliability and quality, something these Japs are known to be better for than even the other Bigger Jap!

Last edited by Vid6639 : 25th November 2012 at 13:18. Reason: No more than 2 smileys allowed per post. Please read the rules before you continue to post.
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Old 25th November 2012, 13:18   #154
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

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Originally Posted by StarScream View Post
As far as I understand, Honda does not allow their cars to be used as taxis. The maximum I have seen is them being used as hotel-fleet cars and rental vehicles.
Highly doubt this. I think in Bangkok all taxis are Honda/Toyota.

Irrespective of that, I think a great launch. It was about time Honda did something about this. In my opinion this car would be an instant hit.
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Old 25th November 2012, 13:44   #155
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

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Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Not sure if I understood it correctly, how can a manufacturer 'not allow' one of their models to be used as a taxi? If I want to buy a Honda City today and register it as a taxi, is there any rule that would prevent me from doing so?

I thought the reason we don't see Honda cars as taxi currently is lack of oil burner which makes running costs too high when compared to other models. Probably the repair costs too, when compared to Tata. I don't think the company has any say in this though I could be wrong here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pradyblr View Post
Highly doubt this. I think in Bangkok all taxis are Honda/Toyota.

To answer your first question - a quick search on the internet revealed this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicab...y#Philippines:
The popular Honda Civics cannot be used as taxis due to a stipulation in the buyer's contract preventing their use as such.

Secondly, in all my travels around the world, I have never seen or used a Honda cab. I was told the reason is that Honda doesn't sell to taxi fleets. I am not sure of the accuracy of that information.

Your second point could be a valid reason for most countries in Asia but it doesn't hold for North America, which is a predominantly petrol market. And I've never seen a Honda cab in the U.S. or Canada. Also petrol cars are great as CNG cabs right? Again, how many converted Hondas does one see as cabs?

That wikipedia article mentions Honda cabs in Singapore. Perhaps, but they must be very rare because I travel to Singapore often and I've never seen a Honda cab. Hyundai Sonatas and the bug-eyed Mercedes E-Class? Yes. Hondas? No.

I've been to Bangkok once, ten years ago, but again I didn't see a Honda cab. Corollas? by the dozen of all different vintages. Hondas? no.
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Old 25th November 2012, 14:00   #156
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

I fully agree. No point blaming manufacturers for cars like Dzire, Amaze, it is the buyers preferences and govt excise norms that is forcing them to bring out these cars. Our obsession with boot, mileage and cost over safety, engineering, performance is going to result in Internationally acclaimed cars not making their way to India. There seem to be no chance that cars like Golf are going to come to India. The situation may be a bit different in the premium end with Mercedes and BMW planning to bring their A Class and 1 Series hatchbacks. Hopefully things will change!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
While a lot of you may think that the Amaze looks ugly and all manufacturers are coming up with ugly cars, I have one simple question.
Why do you guys think they are doing this?

The answer is even more simpler. It's because that what the customers want. I'm not saying they want ugly looking cars.

Last edited by Vid6639 : 25th November 2012 at 14:53. Reason: fixing the quote tags.
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Old 25th November 2012, 15:54   #157
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Brio Amaze TVC from Thailand:


Quote:
Originally Posted by StarScream View Post
That wikipedia article mentions Honda cabs in Singapore. Perhaps, but they must be very rare because I travel to Singapore often and I've never seen a Honda cab. Hyundai Sonatas and the bug-eyed Mercedes E-Class? Yes. Hondas? No.
OT: We have Honda Airwave and Jazz taxis here in Singapore, but not many in numbers compared to the Sonatas, Merc Es, and Camrys.
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Old 25th November 2012, 16:13   #158
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by asitkde View Post
I find it quite strange that whether a particular car is used as taxi is a huge point of consideration for many. Maximum number of taxis in Germany are Benz, and that does not take anything away from Benz as a brand value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaureanBull View Post
It is the typically Indian mentality of being from an elite class. In germany the cars are bought because of need. In india many people buy cars for show off. They want to be seen as belonging to elite class. That is the reason this particular class does not want to associated with mass movers i.e, the taxis.
absolutely with both of you. Though this is a bit I would like to add my 2 cents.

In the developed world car is a necessity. Here in India a car is a matter of prestige, luxury, status symbol, show off whatever you may like to call it to many. I have observed that people falling in this category are majorly the ones who use their cars once in a while, for weekend errands or for short trips. 99% of the time car is just sitting idle in the parking slot, but they take pride in that. These are the people who buy the car to show off.

People at the other spectrum who use the car for their daily office commute or regular business trips would opt for the most practical car, low upfront cost, lower maintenance costs & the lowest running costs. They don't care for the brand, snob value etc, they need workhorses, which are trustworthy on the road & friendly on the pocket. The Amaze has the potential of being the darling of such people.
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Old 25th November 2012, 17:47   #159
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
So a manufacturer has to satisfy the following criteria:

1. Has to be a sedan
2. Has to be priced similar to a premium hatch
3. Has to be within 4m to increase profitability
4. Has to have a very comfortable rear seat with good legroom
5. Has to have decent boot space

The result of satisfying all the above criteria is a quirky looking sedan with very short front overhangs, a short bonnet, an even smaller boot area and maximum cabin space.
I think given those conditions, Honda has done a phenomenal job. To make a car look like a proportionate sedan within 4 meters is an amazing achievement (no pun intended).

I think the Amaze will be such a runaway success that Honda dealers will be back to their no-discount, snooty ways in no time.
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Old 25th November 2012, 18:13   #160
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
While a lot of you may think that the Amaze looks ugly and all manufacturers are coming up with ugly cars, I have one simple question.

Why do you guys think they are doing this?

The answer is even more simpler. It's because that what the customers want. I'm not saying they want ugly looking cars.

Let me elaborate.

A 3.9m long hatch back with a big boot priced at 8-9L is considered expensive and not VFM. Take a 6L hatch, add a boot to it and sell it at the same 8-9L price and suddenly you get a sedan that is VFM. The indian customer wants a sedan but the same customer does not want to pay for a sedan, he/she wants to pay hatch back money for a sedan.

Then you have the government that has decided to give tax benefits for cars below 4m in length, a good 12% benefit that too.

So a manufacturer has to satisfy the following criteria:

1. Has to be a sedan
2. Has to be priced similar to a premium hatch
3. Has to be within 4m to increase profitability
4. Has to have a very comfortable rear seat with good legroom
5. Has to have decent boot space

The result of satisfying all the above criteria is a quirky looking sedan with very short front overhangs, a short bonnet, an even smaller boot area and maximum cabin space.

The only sub 4m sedans you have are the Dzire, indigo eCS and now the Amaze. From the lot, the Amaze looks the best according to me. The Dzire comes second but the very short rear just ruins it for me. The older one was better.

Even the 4m+ sedans like the Manza and Etios don't look all that great. Probably the only sedan that looks even better than the hatch is the Vento but there you have to sacrifice rear space to an extent and you lose the 12% excise benefit since it's above 4m.

So if you look at it, the manufacturers don't have a choice and there's no point blaming Honda or the other manufacturers.

Also, the Amaze looks far more proportional in real life than pics. The pics accentuate the short stubby boot but in real life it's really not that bad.
Woww.. The most justifiable reasoning I must say...
Would just like to add in a couple of more things within my realm of knowledge and understanding..
- In the manufacturing and production businesses, its mostly about the costs that incur. Considering the Amaze, its a new product wherein most(a major part) of it can be produced with the machinery and equipment already fixed and running for the Brio's. That's a huge cost saving aimed by Honda.
Although not a good narrator of what actually I think, I'll try putting in few words... Now in particular the Amaze..if observed carefully...more of the designing and detailing in the looks department could have been done by changing the front doors as well...what I mean is, they(the designers) get newer and more free space to play around with...the designers I am sure will be be given the task of making things after the front door... Say if they change the front door, they could easily bring in a more distinctive waist line(thereby colliding with the rear door and all the way to the tail lamp just as in the other cars/proper sedans) and make the side profile far more pronounced..They way I feel they(Honda) see it = The cost of making a new front door will be more than that extra sales that they're going to get just because of a better design... what I mean is, if the sales analysts at Honda report that by having few more design tweaks the sales are going to get bumped up by another 'X' units, the question arises if the 'X' extra units are going to make up for the extra costs that are going to be incurred in putting newly designed parts. It's finally the profit they make. Moreover the Amaze is no flagship model for Honda. When dealing with volumes, a few sacrifices will be done.. This is all a personal opinion though!
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Old 25th November 2012, 18:13   #161
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarScream View Post
I think the Amaze will be such a runaway success that Honda dealers will be back to their no-discount, snooty ways in no time.
I distinctly remember the smirk of the salesman, when we asked for free Insurance about 3 years ago, when Honda had a 'segment leader' portfolio. "Saar this is Honda Saar" he told us, and gave us nothing!

On the other hand, thanks to the Diesel dominance, almost all manufacturers give nothing for diesel variants, but are generous if you say 'Petrol'. Honda Amaze diesel would be no different I feel.
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Old 25th November 2012, 20:42   #162
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

I couldnt able to understand why so many people are echoing the engine is "Frugal" and bullet proof reliability. Is this just being Honda tag? This could be their first diesel engine and taken baby steps compared with decades of experience with European counterparts on oil burners.
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Old 26th November 2012, 00:04   #163
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhi.kedlaya View Post
I notice from the 360 degree view of the interiors of the BRIO launched in Thailand that it doesn't have steering mounted audio controls. (source honda thailand website)
Assuming that the interior view provided is that of the highest variant, which usually is the case, Honda seems to have consciously removed this feature from the AMAZE.

On the contrary, steering mounted controls are present on the BRIO sold in India. Looks like this Honda's strategy to differentiate between the City & the AMAZE. Sad!

Also, unlike the per-production model driven by Viddy, the Thai website shows the AMAZE with the front bumper blackened out just like the BRIO, which looks great IMHO.

Hope Honda changes its plans and gives us steering mounted controls!

Folks,

I need to correct a few mistakes here.

1. Steering Audio Controls: Looks like, there are no steering mounted audio controls on the Honda BRIO sold in Thailand. At least, the Thai BRIO brochure doesn't show the presence of such controls. Same is the case with the BRIO Amaze as I reported earlier.

However, the Indian BRIO has 'em. So , no harm in expecting them in the Indian spec BRIO Amaze.

Also, Sid Patankar in this weeks CNB, explicitly mentioned that the steering mounted audio controls would be present. Good news!

2. Color of the Front Bumper: I thought that the front bumper was blackened out in some of pics posted in this thread and the picture shown in Honda Thai Website. However, their brochure (downloaded from their website) seems to show a single color front bumper. Looks bad IMHO. I prefer it much better the way it is on the BRIO hatch.

Viddy,

Firstly, thanks for the wonderful report! Rating the thread a well deserved 5 stars. I have couple of questions to you.

1. Do you have any inputs on the aforementioned points from your discussions with Honda engineers in Japan?

2. You did mention that you weren't allowed to carry your cameras & that all pics were from Honda themselves. How come the three auto shows, viz. Autocar, Overdrive and CnB got to videograph their test drives? They even showed the rear leg space on the show (I was simply blown away by the amount of space Honda has managed to liberate in the rear! Hats off to them).

Strange that you weren't allowed to take pics.

Last edited by naut : 26th November 2012 at 00:08. Reason: Minor Edits
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Old 26th November 2012, 06:13   #164
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
While a lot of you may think that the Amaze looks ugly and all manufacturers are coming up with ugly cars, I have one simple question.

Why do you guys think they are doing this?

The answer is even more simpler. It's because that what the customers want. I'm not saying they want ugly looking cars.
In our country people would rather have an ugly-looking sedan than a beautiful hatch with the same specifications. The Amaze looks far more decent than the dzire. Hope Honda prices it well and offers atleast a 4 year warranty which most manufacturers don't.
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Old 26th November 2012, 07:35   #165
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhi.kedlaya View Post
Folks,

1. Do you have any inputs on the aforementioned points from your discussions with Honda engineers in Japan?

2. You did mention that you weren't allowed to carry your cameras & that all pics were from Honda themselves. How come the three auto shows, viz. Autocar, Overdrive and CnB got to videograph their test drives? They even showed the rear leg space on the show (I was simply blown away by the amount of space Honda has managed to liberate in the rear! Hats off to them).

Strange that you weren't allowed to take pics.
Steering mounted controls were very much present in the Amaze we drove and I don't see why Honda would remove them when it comes to India. It's there on all their models and should be there on the Amaze as well. Honda did not reveal any variants planned and their features list and besides, these usually will be confirmed closer to launch.

Honda did not allow us to take pics but they did provide a cameraman for the TV crew along with their own camera. The TV cameraman probably did not know about the extent of the restriction of interior shots.
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