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Old 3rd December 2012, 12:20   #211
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Looks descent compared to new DZire.
My guesstimate : Amaze will be priced way higher than DZire.

VW Polo 1.2L (P) starts at Rs. 4,74,136
VW Vento 1.6L (D) starts at Rs. 8,50,439
Diff: 4,74,136

Nissan Micra XL 1.2 Petrol @ Rs. 4,86,775
Nissan Sunny XL 1.5 Diesel @ Rs. 8,20,049
Diff: 3,33,274

Honda Brio 1.2L (P) starts at Rs. 4,18,230
Honda Amaze 1.5L (D) will start at? <I'm expecting shocking price from Honda>
Its Honda, Its a Sedan and Its Diesel = $$$!!
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Old 3rd December 2012, 12:43   #212
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post

************************************************** **********************************
Does anyone know how was the 1.5L derived from the 1.6L? How much cost savings on the 1.5 compared to 1.6?
From a manufacturer POV, 1.6,1.5,1.4 do not have much cost difference.
But in many countries of the world(including India), instead of Fuel Efficiency, taxation is dependent on engine size. So keeping diesel below 1.5 would mean lower excise bracket for a small car in India.
So thats straight away a big cost saving for the buyer.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 12:49   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979
From a manufacturer POV, 1.6,1.5,1.4 do not have much cost difference.
But in many countries of the world(including India), instead of Fuel Efficiency, taxation is dependent on engine size. So keeping diesel below 1.5 would mean lower excise bracket for a small car in India.
So thats straight away a big cost saving for the buyer.
I know about the taxation rules, but was trying to understand whether Honda will save a lot of cost if they use the 1.5L in City instead of the 1.6L. City anyway doesn't get the tax exemption since its more than 4m in length. So I really hope they use the 1.6L 118 ps engine in City.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerHead
Looks descent compared to new DZire.
My guesstimate : Amaze will be priced way higher than DZire.

VW Polo 1.2L (P) starts at Rs. 4,74,136
VW Vento 1.6L (D) starts at Rs. 8,50,439
Diff: 4,74,136

Nissan Micra XL 1.2 Petrol @ Rs. 4,86,775
Nissan Sunny XL 1.5 Diesel @ Rs. 8,20,049
Diff: 3,33,274

Honda Brio 1.2L (P) starts at Rs. 4,18,230
Honda Amaze 1.5L (D) will start at? <I'm expecting shocking price from Honda>
Its Honda, Its a Sedan and Its Diesel = $$$!!
No! Whatever products you have mentioned, Honda has another product to compete with those (City). So they will not use Amaze in the same league. Add to it, this is not a full size sedan, and there are lots of cost cutting in it. Indian market definitely will not take kindly to it (if pitched against Vento / Rapid / Sunny etc).

Above all, the primary reason for the car to be under the 4m mark is to avail the tax benefits & a cracker of a pricing. So Honda will definitely get a killer pricing. They should very well have seen the Etios / Liva response inspite of a good diesel engine & Toyota badge. Also Honda has become quite sensible offlate, they should do well.

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 3rd December 2012 at 13:08.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 12:49   #214
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerHead View Post
Looks descent compared to new DZire.
My guesstimate : Amaze will be priced way higher than DZire.

VW Polo 1.2L (P) starts at Rs. 4,74,136
VW Vento 1.6L (D) starts at Rs. 8,50,439
Diff: 4,74,136

Nissan Micra XL 1.2 Petrol @ Rs. 4,86,775
Nissan Sunny XL 1.5 Diesel @ Rs. 8,20,049
Diff: 3,33,274

Honda Brio 1.2L (P) starts at Rs. 4,18,230
Honda Amaze 1.5L (D) will start at? <I'm expecting shocking price from Honda>
Its Honda, Its a Sedan and Its Diesel = $$$!!
Nice Analysis, but you have overlooked the fact that Brio amaze is going to be sub 4m and hence qualifies for lesser duty.

I hate going back to the pricing details again because honda must be paying millions to the sales and marketing departments just to get a sweet price.

But since we indians only love Kitna deti hai and Kitne me mili

i feel you should calculate as follows

brio(p)+amaze(p)+ diesel premium
as amaze is sub 4m, assume a premium of 50K over brio hatch. and then 1lakh diesel premium - we are looking at something like 5.6L upper figure of 6L starting price which looks reasonable isnt it ?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 13:27   #215
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Above all, the primary reason for the car to be under the 4m mark is to avail the tax benefits & a cracker of a pricing.
But the maximum Honda can reduce by the excise duty benefit is Rs 50 - 70K. IMO, Amaze Diesel base version will be priced around 7L.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 13:51   #216
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

I was told 6.0 - 7.0 l ex-showroom by the SM of a major dealership.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 13:54   #217
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Another important thought lingering in my mind. I have not seen this point discussed at all.

We all believe Honda will price the car at a premium to Dzire, because the car has more space & a higher capacity & output engine.

Dzire borrows the MJD from Fiat & pays royalty to them. As far as I know when Maruti renewed the license some time back, Fiat made a better deal in terms of royalty (?). To offset this hike in royalty, Maruti wanted a sub 4m car so that the pricing is still competitive, managing their margins.

Since Honda has their own engine, they don't have to pay royalty to anyone which itself is a big saving. With this in mind, cant Honda undercut Dzire pricing? I guess its very much possible. I see Brio has lesser equipment list than Swift, Amaze is also in similar lines compared to Dzire as per initial reviews from Japan.

************************************************** ************************************

I was doing some analysis on the price points of Swift/Dzire (which we can safely assume as the benchmark in the segments).

Current Prices (Ex showroom, Delhi)

Swift P (D) - 4.47 (5.57) | premium of 1.1L

Dzire P (D) - 4.91 (5.99) | premium of ~1.1L

Swift / Dzire P (D) premium - 44K (42K)

Using the Swift / Dzire price difference above as standard, the below estimation done.

Brio P (D) - 4.10 (5.2L)

Extrapolating with an optimistic 50K for sedan over hatch

Amaze P (D) - 4.6L (5.7L)

************************************************** **********************************

We need to remember that Maruti got this price even after paying the royalty. So its quite possible for Honda to give us this pricing - we will need to see whether they want more premium over Dzire. We also need to keep in mind that Dzire has proper seats etc which will matter more to the Indian customer as these doesnt make anyone feel like a budget car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by romeomidhun

But the maximum Honda can reduce by the excise duty benefit is Rs 50 - 70K. IMO, Amaze Diesel base version will be priced around 7L.
How do we arrive at this price? I have given a calculation above in comparison to Dzire.

Last edited by swiftnfurious : 3rd December 2012 at 13:58.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 14:24   #218
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^^^ the Honda will never compete with dzire on price alone.... there will be a premium for the Honda brand like always. Honda has rationalized prices in India as a last ditch effort to offset diesel mania.

Now that it has an ace up its sleeve, I think there will be atleast a 10% premium over Suzuki.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 14:53   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drsingh
^^^ the Honda will never compete with dzire on price alone.... there will be a premium for the Honda brand like always. Honda has rationalized prices in India as a last ditch effort to offset diesel mania.

Now that it has an ace up its sleeve, I think there will be atleast a 10% premium over Suzuki.
Agree on the premium. But then it has to be at par on feature to feature & then add a premium. If Honda really wanted a premium, why Brio was launched & still priced below Swift? I believe the same might apply for Amaze as well.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 15:39   #220
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Since Honda has their own engine, they don't have to pay royalty to anyone which itself is a big saving.
Nothing comes for free in this world. How about the R&D cost involved in developing this 1.5L engine? They would need to recover this cost as a fraction of the Amaze's price. Thats the choice that any company would have to face - either invest heavily in R&D and recover the costs back in the long term or license someone else's product and pay royalty.

Second approach would suit smaller players who cannot afford R&D or bigger players for a short term till they develop their own stuff. You might get really lucky with option 1 if you develop something cutting edge like Fiat did with MJD. They would have recovered the R&D costs in half the time they might have initially thought.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 16:08   #221
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Note from mod team: Please avoid Quoting entire large posts, readability issues. Thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
But the maximum Honda can reduce by the excise duty benefit is Rs 50 - 70K. IMO, Amaze Diesel base version will be priced around 7L.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I was told 6.0 - 7.0 l ex-showroom by the SM of a major dealership.
Ouch. Dealerships are the last to know Prices! And yes, romeomidhun that's right, but savings of Rs. 70 K is HUGE! People want to save 1K by using 5th wheel as steel instead of alloy, imagin 70 k!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Another important thought lingering in my mind. I have not seen this point discussed at all.

======================

How do we arrive at this price? I have given a calculation above in comparison to Dzire.
You must remember that Swift and Swift DZire are pretty much same from inside in size / boot space, whereas Brio is very small (esp. boot) compared to Amaze. Amaze also has better Rear bench space I feel Amaze will deserve a 90K premium over the hatch. Add to that a 1.1 Lac premium for D. 6.2 lacs - 7.3 lacs is spot on Amaze Diesel. Then DZire will have to undercut Honda.

Also I fear for the Vento/Sunny/Rapid/Scala bandwagon! Badge value of a Honda sedan will damage these already dwindling (in terms of sales) cars!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenren View Post
Nothing comes for free in this world. How about the R&D cost involved in developing this 1.5L engine? They would need to recover this cost as a fraction of the Amaze's price. Thats the choice that any company would have to face - either invest heavily in R&D and recover the costs back in the long term or license someone else's product and pay royalty.

Second approach would suit smaller players who cannot afford R&D or bigger players for a short term till they develop their own stuff. You might get really lucky with option 1 if you develop something cutting edge like Fiat did with MJD. They would have recovered the R&D costs in half the time they might have initially thought.
Well even Honda in India will have to pay Honda Japan a royalty There is no R&D in India for Honda...remember? However, since 1.5 is a derivative of the 1.6 i-DTEC made for Europe, I'm sure the cost will be shared over continents

Last edited by Jaggu : 3rd December 2012 at 16:31. Reason: Please avoid Quoting entire large posts, readability issues. Thanks
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Old 3rd December 2012, 20:34   #222
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajshenoy View Post
I feel you should calculate as follows

brio(p)+amaze(p)+ diesel premium
as amaze is sub 4m, assume a premium of 50K over brio hatch. and then 1lakh diesel premium - we are looking at something like 5.6L upper figure of 6L starting price which looks reasonable isnt it ?
You considered everything except the badge 'HONDA' when you consider that the price equations and logic's go for a toss

And a 99BHP?? thats what I heard its churning out, 1.5L "Earth Dreams Technology?" engine will add extra $$$. I'm convinced that no way this will be placed head on to DZire, price wise.

By the way any idea whether Jazz will get this engine in near future? If not then I'm even more convinced that the price would a shocker for many

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftnfurious View Post
Agree on the premium. But then it has to be at par on feature to feature & then add a premium. If Honda really wanted a premium, why Brio was launched & still priced below Swift? I believe the same might apply for Amaze as well.
Remember Jazz was the original and logical competitor for Swift. I feel Brio is a segment or half below Swift.

Last edited by HammerHead : 3rd December 2012 at 20:50.
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Old 4th December 2012, 23:55   #223
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by spinfreak View Post
6.2 lacs - 7.3 lacs is spot on Amaze Diesel. Then DZire will have to undercut Honda.
I am told that Honda India is desperately trying for 5.99L, ex-showroom for the Amaze base diesel. Full scale localisation of most parts to meet the required 90% target is being utilised right now, as we speak.

Realistically though, your assumption could be spot on. I am expecting a 6.19L starting price.

Expect 3 models on offer in the beginning - E, S & V.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerHead View Post
And a 99BHP?? thats what I heard its churning out, 1.5L "Earth Dreams Technology?" engine will add extra $$$.
Maximum torque on offer = 200 Nm.

Weight = 1050 kgs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerHead View Post
By the way any idea whether Jazz will get this engine in near future?
Chances are slim.


A real-life pic of the boot space of the Amaze (yes, that floor is removable) -

Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven-dsc_0211b3950x629.jpg

400 liters + 20 liters of additional space provided as a compartment under the boot floor.

Source (and more pics) - http://paultan.org/2012/11/30/honda-...r-makes-debut/

With the Modulo body-kit - http://paultan.org/2012/12/03/galler...odulo-add-ons/
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Old 5th December 2012, 00:31   #224
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

My first post on Team-bhp and its great to be here!

Leaving looks and price aside, below is my opinion on the diesel Amaze - DZire face off based on several reviews in many auto sites. I used a simple point based system to make the analysis clearer. Disagreements are welcome:

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The Amaze is likely to have a better power to weight ratio than the DZire since its diesel engine is said to be lightest in its class and the power is around 80ps to 100ps with around 200Nm torques. With the Honda badge having more premium value than the DZire (Honda have been successful in selling Rs.10+ lakh cars while Maruti have not and that helps the premium image) expect some jitters in the Maruti camp.

The response I expect from Maruti:
1. New front seats like the i10 or Amaze itself to free up some space for the passengers at the rear.
2. More features like Bluetooth, Navigation, Reverse Sensors etc. added.
3. Fixing their waiting period for the car possibly diverting production capacity from the cousin sister Ritz.
4. Some new variants added to the list.

I also expect Honda not to play it foolish in the pricing of the Amaze as they have already got a taste of what bad pricing can do (Jazz). Instead they might do what Mahindra did with the XUV and slowly but steadily price the Amaze next to the Scala, Sunny, Manza top end and DZire top end variants. The City with a diesel engine (VGT, 125+ps of power) will be priced on par with fluidic Verna. Of course all of this is my opinion and based on what I have read about it.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:02   #225
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Default Re: Honda Amaze 1.5L Diesel : Driven

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
I am told that Honda India is desperately trying for 5.99L, ex-showroom for the Amaze base diesel.
That price is too good to be true
to Honda if they launch Amaze diesel anything between 5.99L to 6.20L considering its a 1.5L, 99BHP engine.

Swift DZire watch out.

This is what I've been thinking.
Swift LXi Rs. 4,60,874 (P)
Swift LDi Rs. 5,73,096 (D)
Diff : 1.2L

DZire LXI Rs. 5,05,790 (P)
DZire LDI Rs. 6,19,685 (D)
Diff: 1.2L

Price differece between Swift Hatch & Sedan:
(P) 45K
(D) 46K

Taking Swift/DZire as baseline, this is what we have:
Honda Brio E MT Rs. 4,18,230 (P)
Honda Brio E MT Rs. 5,38,230 (D) --> Guesstimate

Honda Amaze E MT Rs. 4,63,230 (P) --> Guesstimate
Honda Amaze E MT Rs. 5,84,230 (D) --> Guesstimate (This is without adding $$$ for 'H' + 99BHP + 1.5ltr Engine)

C'mom Honda you can do it. Amaze us by launching it at 5.99L.
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