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Old 10th June 2013, 08:31   #1
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Default White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions

I’ll use this thread as a way to introduce myself and give a brief ownership review. I’ve been a passive reader on this forum for many years, and only just recently joined as a member. I am not exactly a prolific contributor, so this should be a break from tradition for me. This post might get very verbose, so please bear with any frivolous details!
I was browsing through some threads related to international ownership, and one in particular (link below) about cars we would like to see in India. Interestingly, I saw a lot of responses relating to the VW Golf range. I have always admired hot hatches and sports sedans, and I imagine I am not the only one on this forum who does.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...nch-india.html (Cars we wish manufacturers would launch in India)

Quick background:
I came over to the states about 4 years ago to study, and have since owned 2 vehicles. The first one was a 2000 BMW 323i (E46) with 138,XXX miles on her. Ignoring the usual “don’t-buy-German-buy-Japanese” advice, I decided to go with the heart rather than the mind. I knew the potential pitfalls, but a test-drive sealed it for me. I owned that car for over three years and it was very reliable. It never failed to start, and never broke down/saw the back of a flat-bed. It did have its little idiosyncrasies given the age and miles, but that was a small price to pay for the sheer driving pleasure. I doubt any car I could ever afford in the future could offer the same steering feel, what with all the EPS systems around. I finally sold it with a heavy heart this April with 178,XXX miles. I’ll frequently draw comparisons between the GTI and the E46 in this thread.

My driving experience in India included our family cars; Getz 1.3 (sold), SX4 (to be sold), and recently a Fabia 1.6 (1.5 Yrs).

How I decided on the GTI:
Over the past one year, I spent an inordinate amount of time perusing auto review sites, youtube channels, and websites like autotrader.com/cars.com to see options within my budget. I decided early on that I was NOT going the new car route. The thought of losing all that money via depreciation just did not appeal to me. So I narrowed down my options as:

1. Acura TSX: This was my safe and sensible option. It has the reliable Honda mechanicals, and would be great for everyday A-B drives as well as the occasional highway road trips. Incidentally, it was also the most feature rich option on my list of cars. As it turns out, I didn’t even get to test-driving it. No regrets either.

2. Nissan Juke: The first time I saw this car back in 2010, I found the looks mildly offensive. But then the looks grew on me, I read/saw the reviews, and finally test-drove it. The car definitely impressed me. It had decent steering feel and a reasonably compliant ride despite the raised Versa platform. The engine is a 1.6 turbo and it definitely had some shove. The switchable torque vectoring AWD is an awesome option to have for the US winters. However, the fly in the ointment for me was the CVT. Nissan engineers its CVTs better than most, but I just couldn’t get past the idea of driving the CVT. There is a manual transmission option, but there were none available at the time, and I was still debating the Automatic Vs Manual issue.

3. Mini Cooper S: I loved this car for its looks (inside and out), and the performance & go-kart handling. However, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that the stiff ride and lack of a useable back-seat (I am 6’3”) would come back to haunt me on my highway drives.

4. VW CC: I came very, verrry close to picking up a shadow blue CPO with very few miles on it. It has the same powertrain as that of the GTI, but with a plusher interior and ride. Not to mention the looks! It would make an awesome highway mile muncher and a comfortable urban runabout. The only negatives were the awkward rear visibility and that the backseat is strictly a two seater due to the plastic partition (pre 2013). In the end, it turned out that I rejected the CC not because I didn’t like it, but because I LOVED the GTI more.

The GTI
Irrespective of any other car I was looking at, the GTI was always at the top of my list. However, I was a little disappointed at the lack of options in the market. So when I saw a 2011 4-Dr DSG pop up on the market, I knew I had to act fast. Made the call to the dealer and set-up a test-drive. The car had a few options installed as described through the review. However, it didn't have the "Autobahn" package which adds leather seats, sun-roof, the RNS315 navigation HU and bi-xenons. I am actually not a fan of that package as the leather seats, IMO, take something away from the car. Also, the navigation unit is not the smartest to use. Modern smartphones and dedicated units do a far better job.

The first time I saw the car, it was everything I had hoped it would be. It had 24,7XX miles on it over 18 prior months of ownership, but was in near-showroom condition. The paint was perfect with no signs of wear at all. I remember seeing a while GTI a year ago and saying to myself that this color-wheel option is one of the best for this car. Not often is white the preferred choice on a performance oriented vehicle. One of the trademark 18” Detroit alloys did have some minor curb rash, but nothing that would bother me. To cut a long story short, I test drove the car twice over a span of 4 days (a CC test drive squeezed in between), and signed the dotted line to bring her home. I've had the car for almost 2 months now, and I've put about 2200 miles on it.

What I like about it
Understated yet aggressive looks
Quality interior
Mature ride and handling characteristics
Fantastic engine+transmission combination
Overall ergonomics
Getting thumbs-ups and rocker signs from fellow GTI owners

Some things I don't like
Definitely lower on features and flair compared to its direct competitors (Cooper S, Focus ST)
Outright power lower than competitors (Impreza WRX, Focus ST, Mazdaspeed3)
DSG can get a little annoying at low speeds, especially when cold

For a more in-depth review of my experience, I’ll narrate the story along with the pictures.

White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0577.jpg

Its an understated yet aggressive front-end, with the GTI spec bumper, and the traditional GTI grille with red piping. The car does not have the optional bi-xenons. I did replace the stock headlight bulbs with a much brighter set. The US-spec GTIs do not get headlamp washers in any trim; those are just placeholders.

White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0578.jpg
White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0579.jpg

One of my favorite angles for this car. Overall, I think it has a balanced, handsome profile. Its definitely a guy's car and gets a lot of male attention. My earlier E46 turned heads of all genders despite being a 13 year-old design (a timeless shape IMO), but the GTI is a dude's car for sure.

These alloys are now synonymous with the GTI. However, it is very easy to get curb rash on these. I inherited some on the front right; thankfully, I haven’t added any of my own. I replaced the front stock tires with Continental DWS. The combination of white body, silver alloys with black inserts and red calipers is quite eyecatching. The braking performance does a good job of complementing the speeds the car is capable of. However, I have read reports that the car can eat through brakes under enthusiastic driving. I am hoping to make them last longer by being not too crazy with my right foot, except on open roads.

White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0580.jpg
White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0581.jpg

The GTI gets the twin exhaust and diffuser treatment. The exhaust note is pretty nice, but its definitely heavily tuned, in keeping with the trend nowadays. This car is a tuner's delight and there are a lot of aftermarket options available. However, I am a firm believer of keeping things stock, especially while within warranty. I might consider performance filters and wheel upgrades at a later date though.

One aspect that doesn't need any tinkering is the suspension set-up. Its one of the major selling points of this vehicle. You can have your fun pushing this car around corners without compromising on ride quality. Minor bumps and undulations are soaked up quite well and the passengers are never tossed around or irritated by a jittery ride. I haven't yet had a chance to fully explore its handling capabilities, and chances are I probably won't until I take it to a track. My limited experience tells me that it would be very difficult to unsettle it around corners.

White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0582.jpg
White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0588.jpg

The car is really quite roomy on the inside. I haven’t yet spent more than a minute in the back seat, but I find it a fairly comfortable place to be (acres more room than my earlier E46). The car also came with the standard, and in my opinion, the better tartan seats. This is a signature of GTIs now and most owners opt for these as opposed to the optional leather seats that are just meh. I can comfortably sit behind the driver’s seat adjusted for my 6’3” frame. Someone shorter than me will find ample knee room and under thigh support. Headroom is fantastic too with a good inch of clearance above my head. However, the high transmission tunnel hump would make a 5th passenger quite uncomfortable.

White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0583.jpg
White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0584.jpg
White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0585.jpg
White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0592.jpg
White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0597.jpg
White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0598.jpg

More tartan, more red stitching! The steering wheel is the tilt and telescoping type. The arm rest is adjustable for height and it also slides forward and back. It is very easy to find the perfect driving position. The front seat is heavily bolstered and offers great support. I have done a couple of road trips already, and I was never fatigued. Having said that, I did have a chance to get in a Ford Focus ST with the Recaro seats, and those are in a different league altogether.

The leather wrapped, flat bottomed steering wheel is the best I have held in a car in this price range, hands down. I was pretty much sold on the car the moment I held it. Its thick, well bolstered in the right places, and brilliantly constructed. While the steering feel still lacks the intuitiveness of the E46 unit, it is still very communicative and has a nice weighty feel to it as the speeds build up. My only complaint is that the paddle shifters are quite small, and are connected to the wheel and not the column.

ACC is not an option on the GTI, but heated seats are standard throughout. The air conditioner does a decent job of cooling the cabin. A thoughtful feature is the cooled glovebox. The car does have an upgraded RCD510 infotainment unit. The sound quality is pretty decent IMO. The car came with iPhone/iPod adapter connected within the central armrest. However, I've looked and not been able to locate a USB port. It only has an AUX cable input. The build quality of the dashboard is typical VW. The top half of the dashboard is made of extremely soft touch pastics. You could almost flex the instrument binnacle shroud with your fingers. Overall, everything feels tightly screwed together, with no rattles or squeaks. There aren't enough cubbyholes for my liking. I usually like to keep my car neat, but the tiny under-armrest storage doesn't always allow that. And I can never understand why European manufacturers can't make their cupholders for "supersized" American cups. They are quite shallow and I am constantly fearful of coffee or sticky soda spilling all over the console and seats.

I will say that the GTI is a little stingy on features compared to the Focus ST and Cooper S. The RCD510 HU definitely feels a generation older than the Ford unit and is definitely slower. Also, the interface for the phone controls is not nearly as intuitive IMO.

White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0590.jpg

So I bought the one with the optional DSG. I finally understood what the hype is all about. The shifts are quick, and the transmission never hunts around for the right gear. And the BHRRRAPP!! sound on upshifts is simply addictive. It’s a lot of fun to put the car in manual mode and upshift in the 3.5-5k range just to listen to that sound. I think it’s referred to as the “DSG Fart”. The shifter itself is great to operate, with a leather grip and shift boot (with the ever-present GTI stitching).

Downshifts are just as quick, and the transmission even rev-matches. The only downside to the DSG is that urban crawls are not as much fun. The transmission seems a lot jerkier and twitchier in sub 25 MPH speeds. It may need a software update, but I’ve come to understand that this is a common behavior on DSG GTIs. To experience added fun, flick the shifter into the S mode. The transmission refuses to shift before the red-line, and is hilarious fun. You can forget about mileage though.

White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0593.jpg

Pictured here are the buttons for the voice activated Bluetooth system for the phone. I haven't bothered much with this feature as I don't take calls much while driving. The car gets the optional sunroof.

White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0594.jpg
White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0596.jpg

Aluminum sport pedals are standard. The pedal placement is excellent, and I would imagine that heel and toeing on the manual version would be a lot of fun. The all-weather GTI mats are an optional accessory, and they look fantastic. The car even came with the standard summer mats, which are still in the original plastic packaging.

White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions-img_0599.jpg

Saving the best for last! This engine has won multiple awards, and for good reason. It puts out 200 BHP and 280 NM of torque. Admittedly, these numbers are down on the competing Focus ST and Mazdaspeed3. However, it’s the way it delivers the power that gives this car such a wonderful compromise between sporty performance and everyday A to B driveability. Its turbocharged, yet the turbo lag is well controlled and hardly ever a concern in everyday driving. The engine loves to rev and lets out a nice, throaty induction note. The turbo whine is clearly audible at low speeds with the windows rolled down, and adds to the overall experience. The 55-80 MPH on-ramp maneuvers are dispatched with ease, with just a gentle nudge of the right foot. For added hustle, I usually flick the left paddle and get up to highway speeds real quick. The car settles at 80 MPH at around 3100 RPM, which would be attributed to the gearing on the DSG. The same engine and transmission on the CC ticks over at a much lower RPM. The flipside is that the GTI is always ready for action.

One of the aspects of this powertrain in the urban cycle is that you get into 6th at 35-40 MPH if you drive with a light foot. While this is awesome for mileage (10.2 city/14.3 Hwy), it does bring out whatever turbo-lag exists on this engine. Of course, that is easily remedied by using the paddle shifters, though admittedly, I don't use them too much. The DSG does downshift for you, even if you don't, to prevent stalling. The same principle works for the upshifts. My driving style and cycle has given me 13.2 kpl so far.

Problems so far?
I did have one negative experience with the car. Into my second month of ownership, the CEL came on. I was clearly upset about this on a car this new. However, the local VW dealership came through, and quickly and efficiently diagnosed/fixed the problem under warranty. Turns out the entire intake manifold needed replacement. It was a little alarming, but I am considering it to be a one-off incident.

This concludes my first ever attempt at a review. I may have missed out on some aspects, so you can just throw questions my way. Hope it was as much fun to read as it was to write.

Last edited by kinetic : 11th June 2013 at 17:52.
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Old 12th June 2013, 11:51   #2
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Default Re: White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions

Thread moved from the Assembly Line (The "Assembly Line" Forum section) to the Initial Ownership Section. Thanks for sharing!
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Old 12th June 2013, 11:58   #3
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Default Re: White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions

Hey Kinetic,
Congrats on your Golf GTI! It looks quite stunning in White and the alloys are absolutely awesome as well!
Hope you have many awesome miles in it!
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Old 12th June 2013, 12:18   #4
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Very detailed for a first review!

Congrats on the awesome ride and wishing you many happy miles with it.
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Old 12th June 2013, 13:02   #5
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Awesome review for an awesome car.
The snaps look really awesome, especially the one of the aluminium pedals.
Happy revving.
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Old 12th June 2013, 14:13   #6
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Default Re: White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions

Hello Kinetic and congrats on buying the GTI. Pleasant to see a hot hatch in the big burly truck loving US . From what I understand US has long straight highways, how are you planning to unleash the cars awesome dynamic abilities
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Old 12th June 2013, 14:23   #7
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Lovely grab there. GTi looks amazing esp in white.
I like the red thread stitching on the steering
Cheers
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Old 12th June 2013, 17:26   #8
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My kinda variant. Basic interiors with the most powerful engine underneath.
Those seats look retro, IMO. They're straight out of the 80s and is a proper recipe for a sleeper. Why don't you slap some Bluemotion 1.4 TDi stickers on and have some fun?
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Old 12th June 2013, 17:32   #9
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Fantastic review! Very well written. Just one question regarding the intake manifold malfunction- did you check with the VW guys if this is a common issue, considering that it is a fairly new car? Also, what kind of costs are you looking at if this would have happened out of warranty?
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Old 12th June 2013, 19:48   #10
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Default Re: White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions

Quote:
Originally Posted by nipcarlover View Post
Hey Kinetic,
Congrats on your Golf GTI! It looks quite stunning in White and the alloys are absolutely awesome as well!
Hope you have many awesome miles in it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by abhinav.s View Post
Very detailed for a first review!

Congrats on the awesome ride and wishing you many happy miles with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
Awesome review for an awesome car.
The snaps look really awesome, especially the one of the aluminium pedals.
Happy revving.
Thanks for all the wishes guys! For a few days after the purchase, I was having recurring thoughts whether I made the right choice of a GTI over the CC. Two months into the ownership, I have no regrets!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolBlueBiker View Post
Hello Kinetic and congrats on buying the GTI. Pleasant to see a hot hatch in the big burly truck loving US . From what I understand US has long straight highways, how are you planning to unleash the cars awesome dynamic abilities
Thanks! Hot hatches, and just hatchbacks in general, are making their way into American hearts. I see a lot of Fiat 500s, Ford Fiestas and the like cruising the highways now. As for unleashing the GTI, I'll have to get off the well policed highways, and make my way onto some twisty roads (not yet sure when and where). However, sometime soon , I need to get this car onto a track for some clean fun

Quote:
Originally Posted by mindless wander View Post
Lovely grab there. GTi looks amazing esp in white.
I like the red thread stitching on the steering
Cheers
Thanks! Honestly, I always liked the white over the black/grey/red exterior options. I was pretty chuffed when this car worked out for me. And the red stitching is pretty much everywhere. Its a black, grey and red party inside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous View Post
My kinda variant. Basic interiors with the most powerful engine underneath.
Those seats look retro, IMO. They're straight out of the 80s and is a proper recipe for a sleeper. Why don't you slap some Bluemotion 1.4 TDi stickers on and have some fun?
I thinl it might just backfire since those wheels are a dead giveaway of whats underneath the hood. of course, sometime soon I need to get rid of that ugly dealership badge on the lower right corner of the hatchback

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4nd3r50n View Post
Fantastic review! Very well written. Just one question regarding the intake manifold malfunction- did you check with the VW guys if this is a common issue, considering that it is a fairly new car? Also, what kind of costs are you looking at if this would have happened out of warranty?
So researching this problem was quite interesting. I did, what I thought was a thorough check on the common problems faced on the cars on my shortlist. However, the one about the intake manifold slipped under the radar, and I was quite surprised that something went wrong with it. To be frank, I didn't inquire about the cost to fix it, since it was well within warranty. I did find out later that it would have set me back by about $400 to have it fixed.
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Old 13th June 2013, 01:17   #11
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Default Re: White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions

Hi Kinetic,
First of all welcome to the Team-BHP family. Congrats on your GTi and a well written review there. Rated it a 5 well deserved stars.

If you want to fix those kerb rashes on your wheels, why not try getting it painted white. I have seen one such white GTI with white wheels on vwwatercooled.au(couldn't find the link now) and it looks awesome. Do a photo rendering and see for yourself.
I love those Scottish kilt kind of upholstery on the seats, I think that's the standard for all GTI IIRC.

Wishing you happy mile munching with your hot hatch no.1.
p.s.: nowhere in your posts or the title, you have described your car as 'Golf' GTi, any specific reasons?

Cheers,
D.
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Old 13th June 2013, 03:03   #12
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Default Re: White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions

Congrats on your new ride. Welcome to the Mecca of everything auto.

Hope you have many miles of fun. You haven't mentioned where in USA you are located. Do update it so you can turn up for team-bhp meets and meet other members here.

Also, there is a lively, active thread for vehicle in NA.

Here is the link: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intern...ml#post3147922 (Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America)

I also like GTi a lot. Its a great car and bring a big grin when taking corners. I am sure you will love it. I almost bought one but luckily deal didn't fell through.

Love the wheels. Get it plastidip to avoid curb rash. Easy to do and costs nothing. It will total change the way your car looks. You can always go back to original if you are not satisfied as you can easily peel it.

2000 E46 were quite known for their reliability so i am not surprised that it was reliable for you. Those were the days when electronics were less in BMW and Mercs and were reliable. Scenario changed in 2008-2009 with engine problems and electrical gremlins.

Hope CEL on Gti was a one off case and you don't get it back ever. Have fun and enjoy.

Last edited by chevelle : 13th June 2013 at 03:05.
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Old 13th June 2013, 04:19   #13
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Default Re: White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions

Congrats on the GTI, Kinetic. That car needs to be put through some real serious twisties. Am curious to see how the DSG responds in tight corners with elevation changes.

As Chevelle said, contribute also in the North American forum when you can, and let us know where you're located.

Cheers.
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Old 13th June 2013, 06:27   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delta5 View Post
Hi Kinetic,
First of all welcome to the Team-BHP family. Congrats on your GTi and a well written review there. Rated it a 5 well deserved stars.

If you want to fix those kerb rashes on your wheels, why not try getting it painted white. I have seen one such white GTI with white wheels on vwwatercooled.au(couldn't find the link now) and it looks awesome. Do a photo rendering and see for yourself.
I love those Scottish kilt kind of upholstery on the seats, I think that's the standard for all GTI IIRC.

Wishing you happy mile munching with your hot hatch no.1.
p.s.: nowhere in your posts or the title, you have described your car as 'Golf' GTi, any specific reasons?

Cheers,
D.
Painting the wheels is definitely an option. However, since the scratches are on the front passenger-side wheel, I am not reminded of them as much. Moreover, I am already flirting with the idea of eventually swapping the stock wheels with these in the gunmetal shade (http://www.velocitymotoring.com/v710..._finishes.html)

The seats are indeed a GTI tradition now. In fact, more owners seem to prefer these over the optional leather ones that look very ordinary

Interesting observation on the name! So, the GTI in the US has a separate identity of its own (see image below), as opposed to everywhere else where its referred to as the Golf GTI. Personally, I have no preference, but I have just gotten used to calling it just the GTI. It could also be because the US only has one GTI version of a car in its line-up. Europe has the Polo GTI as well.

Name:  GTI SS.png
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevelle View Post
Congrats on your new ride. Welcome to the Mecca of everything auto.

Hope you have many miles of fun. You haven't mentioned where in USA you are located. Do update it so you can turn up for team-bhp meets and meet other members here.

Also, there is a lively, active thread for vehicle in NA.

Here is the link: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intern...ml#post3147922 (Buying, Owning, Driving and Maintaining a car in North America)

I also like GTi a lot. Its a great car and bring a big grin when taking corners. I am sure you will love it. I almost bought one but luckily deal didn't fell through.

Love the wheels. Get it plastidip to avoid curb rash. Easy to do and costs nothing. It will total change the way your car looks. You can always go back to original if you are not satisfied as you can easily peel it.

2000 E46 were quite known for their reliability so i am not surprised that it was reliable for you. Those were the days when electronics were less in BMW and Mercs and were reliable. Scenario changed in 2008-2009 with engine problems and electrical gremlins.

Hope CEL on Gti was a one off case and you don't get it back ever. Have fun and enjoy.
Ahh yes! I've been a passive reader on this forum since 2006, and I've looked up that thread many times since. I should have just become a member then.

I am currently based out of Louisville, KY, but may or may not be for much longer

I did take a leap of faith with the E46, but my faith was repaid in the form of a fantastic driving experience. I am a lot calmer about the GTI since its still got 3 years of powertrain warranty left on it. But yes, I am certainly flirting with the fickle German beauties.

Thanks for the plastidip tip; I hadn't even considered that. It could be good insurance against further damage (hopefully none).

Quote:
Originally Posted by VLOCT View Post
Congrats on the GTI, Kinetic. That car needs to be put through some real serious twisties. Am curious to see how the DSG responds in tight corners with elevation changes.

As Chevelle said, contribute also in the North American forum when you can, and let us know where you're located.

Cheers.
Thanks VLOCT! I haven't had a chance to put her through any fun twisty roads, but I have done some variable elevation roads. I can safely report that the DSG in this is very proactive about downshifts, and very receptive to the right foot. Of course, one can preempt it using the paddles, which is a lot more fun over empty roads. Ideally, I'd prefer a manual for this purpose, but my driving routine as well as my frequent road trips to larger cities made the DSG a more attractive option.


On another note, would any of you guys recommend getting a clear paint protection film installed on the front of the car? I already see one tiny stone chip on the bonnet. My earlier car got hammered over 40k miles of driving, and don't want this pristine white paint to become all pockmarked.
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Old 13th June 2013, 16:13   #15
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Default Re: White 4-door VW GTI - Initial Ownership Impressions

Congrats Kinetic for the crisp review, the GTi is defenitely adorable.
I like VW because they keep things simple and usable.
My petrolhead is pushing me to go for the Polo GT after returning to India, However, I am suspecious of the dsg. I am looking forward to your updates after quencing some miles.

You did not mention the Audi A3 among the cars that you considered, that surprices!

PS: I quite liked the way you started the thread with the Japanese vs German thought.
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