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Old 14th November 2013, 10:56   #61
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Default Re: Let's Dzire again, but this time ZDi. My Maruti Dzire. EDIT: Totalled

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Buddy, I think you have to take to task the SA who is enthusiastic about generating a six digit bill for the repairs and fulfilling his monthly targets. If he thinks he can get the car back to stock form, tell him to give the same in writing that the vehicle will be back to perfect shape with zero niggles. My relative had been rear ended in a signal. A truck hit his omni from behind which sent the car rolling onto its side. The estimate was not satisfying for total loss. The chassis had to be straightened. Then we demanded that the SA should assure in writing that the car will be back to it's original form after repairs. Then the estinate was changed to include a new body shell. Hence it crossed the IDV of the car and declared a total loss.

I think you can do the same and give a try.
He is even telling that the car will never be as perfect as before. He is saying robot perfection can never be given by humans. He says it might be 90% like before but he is pushing me to repair by telling that I am losing lot of money in total loss and cash loss compared to repair. That car is far too damaged to be repaired and I also lose the warranty which is another headache plus my dad will never sit in it again.
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Old 14th November 2013, 11:01   #62
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Default Re: Let's Dzire again, but this time ZDi. My Maruti Dzire. EDIT: Totalled

Well, AFAIK, the more a car crumbles the better it has absorbed the impact, unless it completely crumbles, including the passenger compartment.
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Old 14th November 2013, 11:07   #63
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Default Re: Let's Dzire again, but this time ZDi. My Maruti Dzire. EDIT: Totalled

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Originally Posted by rockporiom View Post
He is even telling that the car will never be as perfect as before. He is saying robot perfection can never be given by humans. He says it might be 90% like before but he is pushing me to repair by telling that I am losing lot of money in total loss and cash loss compared to repair. That car is far too damaged to be repaired and I also lose the warranty which is another headache plus my dad will never sit in it again.
The guy wants a huge repair bill and nothing else. Sit with the surveyor and the SA and give them both some lessons if they dont agree to pass this as a total loss. The whole point of an ASC is to get things back to perfect shape and this should be covered by insurance. If it cant be done, then demand the body shell has to be changed or whatever else it takes to get the car back to perfect shape. Eventually it will turn out to be a new car. That was the logic we followed. We want 100% perfect work. SA tells that its not possible. We ask what does it take to achieve that, he tells that a new shell is required. Just add it into the estimate, and then it will cost as much as a new car.
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Old 14th November 2013, 11:13   #64
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Default Re: Let's Dzire again, but this time ZDi. My Maruti Dzire. EDIT: Totalled

Quote:
Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post
Attachment 1165842

I have highlighted the portions where the car has crumpled. My question is this supposed to happen? A safe monocoque will have minimal to nil impact on the passenger shell, which has happened in this case. Compare this with the Accent (pic posted by @rockporiom) & Punto's shell in the Accident's in India thread & you will understand what I am pointing out to.

Rockporiom is it possible that you may post more pics of the Accent .
Just to prove my point my car coul be towed on its rear wheels even after the accident whereas the accent had to be towed in the air since its chassis had gone through the rear wheels making it immobile. And agin the punto hit a stationery tree whereas my car had a head on collision with a car travelling at 120 when it itself was travelling at 60. Both are completely different scenarios.


Quote:
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The guy wants a huge repair bill and nothing else. Sit with the surveyor and the SA and give them both some lessons if they dont agree to pass this as a total loss. The whole point of an ASC is to get things back to perfect shape and this should be covered by insurance. If it cant be done, then demand the body shell has to be changed or whatever else it takes to get the car back to perfect shape. Eventually it will turn out to be a new car. That was the logic we followed. We want 100% perfect work. SA tells that its not possible. We ask what does it take to achieve that, he tells that a new shell is required. Just add it into the estimate, and then it will cost as much as a new car.
In your case the advantage was that the engine wasn't damaged. In my case they have to open the engine and they themselves say that once it is opened it will never have the refinement that it had before. Even If I change everything the engine will never be like before. This is because in factory the engine is made with specialist equipment and is a one whole piece when put in the car whereas these guys get it in parts like block, piston, etc. Which is replaced as necessary so I will never get the finish and refinement that I want.

Last edited by rockporiom : 14th November 2013 at 11:37.
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Old 14th November 2013, 11:17   #65
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Default Re: Let's Dzire again, but this time ZDi. My Maruti Dzire. EDIT: Totalled

In case of a total write off, you get the entire insurance amount. Period.

Tell the Service guy that you know insurance and you will lose only some amount like a little depreciation and the road tax etc.

And yes, dont get it repaired. It will never be the same again after such a huge shunt.
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Old 14th November 2013, 11:47   #66
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Default Re: Let's Dzire again, but this time ZDi. My Maruti Dzire. EDIT: Totalled

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockporiom View Post
Just to prove my point my car coul be towed on its rear wheels even after the accident whereas the accent had to be towed in the air since its chassis had gone through the rear wheels making it immobile. And agin the punto hit a stationery tree whereas my car had a head on collision with a car travelling at 120 when it itself was travelling at 60. Both are completely different scenarios.
Hi @rockporiom

Hope your father is out of ICU as you had posted few days back.

Coming to the issue... an accident is an accident, whether you have it at 30 mph or 120 mph (200 kmph). The energies are obviously higher in case of latter (your father's accident case), but the monocoque should absorb it, & the passenger shell & or chassis should remain intact. To compare it with a model which in itself 15 years old (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Accent) is an exaggeration. If the CNG cylinder was not installed on the car, I bet the rear seat passenger would have been alive, IMO. Moreover, the safety requirements around 1999, when the Accent (similar to what met accident) was introduced were quite different as compared to 2010 (current gen Swift was launched in 2010). Your chassis too is deformed as is clear in later post & pics. So your car is only bit better than the Accent despite being 10 years younger model.

Moreover, death in accident can also happen like comedian Jaspal Bhatti died in a freak accident when the car hit a tree, all because he was not wearing seatbelt, which could have absorbed the impact/ energies, & he was flunged to front windscreen.

My point here is that the scenarios are different, but the energies are there & maximum of those have to absorbed by the car's structure, without deforming.

Anyway, you have an injured father to look after & other formalities re the accidental car, rather than caring about posts that are not directed to you IMO.

Please do the needful.
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Old 14th November 2013, 12:21   #67
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Default Re: Let's Dzire again, but this time ZDi. My Maruti Dzire. EDIT: Totalled

@rockporiom,

My heartfelt wishes to your family. As most have pointed out, try to get the car into the total loss category and get your 100% IDV from the insurance guys.

God bless your family.
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Old 14th November 2013, 19:40   #68
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Default Re: Let's Dzire again, but this time ZDi. My Maruti Dzire. EDIT: Totalled

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adi22 View Post
@rockporiom,

My heartfelt wishes to your family. As most have pointed out, try to get the car into the total loss category and get your 100% IDV from the insurance guys.

God bless your family.
This is the estimate from maruti guys. The surveyor is so smart that he said that only block is damaged and reduced the 2 lakh for engine to 25k but the matter is still on dispute between workshop and insurance will be confirmed only after the engine is opened.
Attached Images
    

Last edited by rockporiom : 14th November 2013 at 19:42.
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Old 14th November 2013, 20:09   #69
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Default Re: Let's Dzire again, but this time ZDi. My Maruti Dzire. EDIT: Totalled

Quote:
Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post
Hi @rockporiom

Hope your father is out of ICU as you had posted few days back.

Coming to the issue... an accident is an accident, whether you have it at 30 mph or 120 mph (200 kmph). The energies are obviously higher in case of latter (your father's accident case), but the monocoque should absorb it, & the passenger shell & or chassis should remain intact. To compare it with a model which in itself 15 years old (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Accent) is an exaggeration. If the CNG cylinder was not installed on the car, I bet the rear seat passenger would have been alive, IMO. Moreover, the safety requirements around 1999, when the Accent (similar to what met accident) was introduced were quite different as compared to 2010 (current gen Swift was launched in 2010). Your chassis too is deformed as is clear in later post & pics. So your car is only bit better than the Accent despite being 10 years younger model.

Moreover, death in accident can also happen like comedian Jaspal Bhatti died in a freak accident when the car hit a tree, all because he was not wearing seatbelt, which could have absorbed the impact/ energies, & he was flunged to front windscreen.

My point here is that the scenarios are different, but the energies are there & maximum of those have to absorbed by the car's structure, without deforming.

Anyway, you have an injured father to look after & other formalities re the accidental car, rather than caring about posts that are not directed to you IMO.

Please do the needful.
Mate, what are you basing your argument upon? A crash into a standstill wall/tree is WAY different to a crash into a car going at 120 at an offset. A monocoque chassis does have limits you know that yeah? I can't run around town into objects moving at whatever speed and expect nothing to happen I suggest you do some more research. As speeds increase, so does the force; exponentially so. This car reacted perfectly normally to the accident. Doors seemed to have opened too.
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Old 14th November 2013, 20:33   #70
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Default Re: Let's Dzire again, but this time ZDi. My Maruti Dzire. EDIT: Totalled

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockporiom View Post
This is the estimate from maruti guys. The surveyor is so smart that he said that only block is damaged and reduced the 2 lakh for engine to 25k but the matter is still on dispute between workshop and insurance will be confirmed only after the engine is opened.
Thats almost equal to buying a new car. How on earth does the surveyor even want to pass this? In fact, if they declare it as a total loss, the insurance company will have to pay lesser money from their side. The scrap buyer will pay the majority amount. And also in this case, the chassis has to be repaired of bends. Hence, the structural strength will be lost in this process. This itself demands a new bodyshell. If I were in your position I would have ranted out at how senseless the surveyor and SA are into pushing your car for repair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post

My point here is that the scenarios are different, but the energies are there & maximum of those have to absorbed by the car's structure, without deforming.
That is like rewriting the laws of physics. The body parts absorb force by deforming, is what they say. If I hold a soft foam block and tell another person to hit the block from the other side, the foam will crumple and absorb all the force and I might feel a slow push or something definitely lesser than a blow. On the other hand, if I hold a piece of wood or brick which is rigid and try to take the hit, the wood block just transfers the energy to me as it cant absorb. Thats what has happened in the Dzires case or any other car which may be classified as built with 'thin sheet metal'.

The answer to the question as to why the chassis bent in the middle can be obtained from this picture:

Name:  swiftSafety2Large.jpg
Views: 5001
Size:  100.5 KB
source http://www.suzuki.co.nz/images/swiftSafety2Large.jpg

The force from a frontal impact is dissipated to the sides. The side members then get crumpled and absorb the force. The parts in blue have deformed in order to absorb the impact. Even with this, the passenger compartment is free of obstructions or protusions. Only the running board and upper member is bent. Hope this clears why the chassis has bent. The passenger compartment will be regarded unsafe if the impact causes any object to come into the way of the occupants or so. I can still sit inside rockporiums dzire cant I? That is IMO what I feel is okay, if not excellent.

Last edited by audioholic : 14th November 2013 at 20:39.
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Old 14th November 2013, 21:19   #71
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Default Re: Let's Dzire again, but this time ZDi. My Maruti Dzire. EDIT: Totalled

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
Thats almost equal to buying a new car. How on earth does the surveyor even want to pass this? In fact, if they declare it as a total loss, the insurance company will have to pay lesser money from their side. The scrap buyer will pay the majority amount. And also in this case, the chassis has to be repaired of bends. Hence, the structural strength will be lost in this process. This itself demands a new bodyshell. If I were in your position I would have ranted out at how senseless the surveyor and SA are into pushing your car for repair.
I have not approved repair I have told them I want total loss or they may keep the car with them.
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Old 15th November 2013, 00:20   #72
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Default Re: Let's Dzire again, but this time ZDi. My Maruti Dzire. EDIT: Totalled

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Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post
Hi @rockporiom

Hope your father is out of ICU as you had posted few days back.

If the CNG cylinder was not installed on the car, I bet the rear seat passenger would have been alive, IMO.
First of all my dad was never in the icu he just had an operation and was shifted to a normal room. Secondly, the person in the backseat has survived the crash but has a broken spine, jaw and skull and is paralysed from waist down. Only the 2 passengers sitting in the front died.

I seriously can't understand how you are comparing a 120kph head on collision with a moving car with another scenario where a car travelling at max 80 has hit a standing tree. Why don't you look up fifth gear crash tests on youtube and you will get my point. The entire point of crumple zones is what the name suggests they crumple. If they wouldn't have crumbled the energy would have to be released in some or the other way causing injuries to the occupants in the car. That is the exact reason that the engine entered the accent and it did not crumple at all in the impact.

The entire work of the crumple zones is to transfer energy. Read the brochure of cars like honda city, SX4 or jetta which have graphical representation of the same. And you can even refer to the image provided by audioholic which is exactly and perfectly what has happened to my dzire.

Plus seat belts do not absorb impact they rather hold you in your place making sure that you don't get thrown out or hit the steering wheel when an impact takes place. But in this case the car was so badly damaged that the engine had nearly crushed the driver and passenger. All 4 doors were jammed and the bodies were removed by braking the windows.

And lastly, I am taking good care of my dad no worries on that but just can't take a wrong assessment of the scenario to say that my dzire has not done its job well. It has done its job very well in protecting my dad and keeping him alive which is ALL THAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME.

I don't for a second feel that I went for a wrong car and on a second note I am going to go again for a dzire zdi in metallic beige with the same digit number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E63 View Post
In case of a total write off, you get the entire insurance amount. Period.

Tell the Service guy that you know insurance and you will lose only some amount like a little depreciation and the road tax etc.

And yes, dont get it repaired. It will never be the same again after such a huge shunt.
The service guy is in fact helping me trying to make it total loss by giving a high estimate from his side. But he says in total loss the buyer will charge 2 months depreciation on the car so I will not get 100% IDV I would rather get around 6.5 to 7 lakhs.

Last edited by rockporiom : 15th November 2013 at 00:46.
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Old 15th November 2013, 01:59   #73
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Default Re: Let's Dzire again, but this time ZDi. My Maruti Dzire. EDIT: Totalled

Yep.

Standard procedure is that the company gives you a quote. You either accept it, or take it to the court.
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Old 16th November 2013, 10:40   #74
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Default Re: Let's Dzire again, but this time ZDi. My Maruti Dzire. EDIT: Totalled

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Originally Posted by rockporiom View Post
I seriously can't understand how you are comparing a 120kph head on collision with a moving car with another scenario where a car travelling at max 80 has hit a standing tree.

.....
Firstly mate, CARDEEP was just trying to make a point that European cars are better built than their Japanese counterparts, which is a fact. Your dad *might* have had lesser injuries had he been in say a VW/Skoda/Fiat.

You need not take only the Punto-tree incident and your Dzire's incident to gauge this fact. There are numerous others in our own Accidents thread. A Toyota Etios crumbles like paper, you cannot justify that by saying that the whole body is made of crumple zones. Crumple zones are placed at strategic points of impact and not necessarily the monocoque chassis or the running board/rocker panel.

Just give it a thought, rather than reacting, sometimes it makes sense to use our mind than follow our sentiments, it is understandable that you definitely would have some sentiments towards the totalled car.

Good luck!
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Old 16th November 2013, 14:41   #75
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Default Re: Let's Dzire again, but this time ZDi. My Maruti Dzire. EDIT: Totalled

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Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
Firstly mate, CARDEEP was just trying to make a point that European cars are better built than their Japanese counterparts, which is a fact.
That is only in terms of quality of interior fit and finish.

Quote:
Your dad *might* have had lesser injuries had he been in say a VW/Skoda/Fiat.
Among the Swift, Polo, Fabia and Punto, the Swift has scored the highest points. Here are the results:

1. http://www.euroncap.com/results/suzu.../2010/403.aspx
2. http://www.euroncap.com/results/vw/polo/371.aspx
3. http://www.euroncap.com/tests/skoda_fabia_2007/293.aspx
4. http://www.euroncap.com/tests/fiat_punto_2005/238.aspx
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