Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > Team-BHP Reviews > Test-Drives & Initial Ownership Reports


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 8th August 2007, 15:17   #316
Senior - BHPian
 
ST7677's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,045
Thanked: 45 Times
Default

It's simple, different engines are designed & tuned with different objectives in mind.

Skoda added a turbo charger to their car because they were forced to do it, their 2.0l petrol engine would not produce as much power as even 1.8l Vtec engine and would still guzzle more petrol!
Honda won't do it yet because it costs money, and because higher power cars are not on any Co's agenda yet.

When we say low end torque is low, it is relative to the over all performance of the engine and the gearing for it.
1.8 iVtec engine is designed to give high power with excellent fuel efficiency. It produces almost twice the power of i-DSI engine with 20% less fuel efficiency.

Vtec means - variable valve timing to provide more output
i-Vtec means doing the above intelligently (only when it is required, based on engine load)
(in OHC, Vtec implementation was always active in a specific RPM range)

9kmpl for a Rev happy engine is very good. (I hope you understand that by Rev happy he means - when pushed hard)
Try pushing Elantra / Corolla / or even Octavia 1.8TPI and you will see mileage going to 6-7kmpl.

Technology and output wise 1.8 iVtec engine is one of the most advanced engines in Indian market today. It has it's drawbacks - like it does all that being an SOHC. But that only says that Honda has still kept few cards close to their chest to take on the competition as and when the need arises.
ST7677 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2007, 15:20   #317
Senior - BHPian
 
rahul_intlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,577
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

I think you have forgotten the corolla too is vvt-i.

I am not 100% sure but have heard the corolla feels more peppier to drive than the civic and is more fuel efficient too.

Last edited by rahul_intlad : 8th August 2007 at 15:26.
rahul_intlad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2007, 15:33   #318
Senior - BHPian
 
ST7677's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,045
Thanked: 45 Times
Default

No, I didn't. I mentioned in post 308.

But VVTi competes with Vtec and both are obsolete wrt to i-Vtec.
I am sure in new Corolla they will come with something similar...

Regarding being peppier, you can say Corolla is more responsive in lower RPM range, however CIVIC is more smoother (in terms of power delivery - which makes it feel like less responsive).
However it is still faster and is more fuel efficient than the Corolla.

Last edited by ST7677 : 8th August 2007 at 15:39.
ST7677 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2007, 15:41   #319
Senior - BHPian
 
rahul_intlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pune
Posts: 1,577
Thanked: 2 Times
Default

Quote:
But VVTi competes with Vtec and both are obsolete wrt to i-Vtec.
No vvti is Variable Valve Timing - intelligent,and both[i-vtec and vvti] are similar technologies,I think you have got confused with toyota's older technology VVT which was along the lines of VTEC.

Quote:
however CIVIC is more smoother
Yes the Honda engine feels more refined than the toyota's,compared to the civic ,the corolla seems a bit too noisy for my liking.

Last edited by rahul_intlad : 8th August 2007 at 15:53.
rahul_intlad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2007, 16:03   #320
Senior - BHPian
 
androdev's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: bangalore
Posts: 1,586
Thanked: 1,723 Times
Default

variable valve timing is a HUGE improvement. different manufacturers use different ways to accomplish this. and Honda is the best in the game, its VTEC can control both valve lift timing and valve lift duration. Toyota VVT only controls value lift timing and not the lift duration. But VVT is a very simple mechanism compared to the complex VTEC. Honda is admired because even though VTEC is very complex, it never fails.
androdev is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2007, 16:20   #321
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pune
Posts: 161
Thanked: 3 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ST7677 View Post
No, I didn't. I mentioned in post 308.

But VVTi competes with Vtec and both are obsolete wrt to i-Vtec.
I am sure in new Corolla they will come with something similar...

Regarding being peppier, you can say Corolla is more responsive in lower RPM range, however CIVIC is more smoother (in terms of power delivery - which makes it feel like less responsive).
However it is still faster and is more fuel efficient than the Corolla.
Have to disagree on that. I have driven both cars (manual versions) and the Corolla is faster than the Civic across all power delivery ranges. However, the Civic IS smoother.

Also, the Toyota is more fuel efficient than the Civic as well, something I have tested repeatedly. Can you imagine the Civic returning 11 - 11.5 kmpl with AC in city driving conditions, something the Corolla does with ease ?? Of course I am talking of ideal driving conditions of both cars, i.e. without pushing them very hard.

The VVT-i does not correspond to the Vtec....it does correspond to the
i-VTEC of Honda. Both are Intelligent Variable Valve Timed engines. In terms of engine refinement, the Corolla's engine does get noisy at very speeds which the Civic's does not but we hardly drive at those speeds in normal city traffic.

Going by various websites and also reports from my family members in the US, it seems Toyota has an edge over Honda in terms of *** and engine technology as Toyota's engines can seemingly go on for 300K kms without requiring an engine overhaul.
samirsarkar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2007, 17:00   #322
Senior - BHPian
 
ST7677's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,045
Thanked: 45 Times
Default

My data is from my own first hand experience.

I car pool with my neighbor who owns a Corolla. We take the same route same timings and sometimes even drive the others car. And at times we have even ripped them together...
On a mixed route, he consistently gets 9 kmpl where as I get close to 10 kmpl both with A/C on.
ST7677 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2007, 17:18   #323
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,350
Thanked: 31 Times
Default

Wow, lot of interesting inputs. Toyota and Honda sells because of a combination of various factors: great car (includes performance, handling, etc), VFM, A.S.S, packaging etc. I personally think that there's not much to differentiate between the two. One of the reasons I got the Civic was that it was the latest and Corolla was on its way out.

Probably next year when the new Corolla is out (going by reports) the Civic sales would take a hit unless Honda addresses the situation immediately.

Still both cars are very well matched. What won me over was the styling, looks and the 5 speed auto tranny with the paddle shift.

I'm expecting Corolla to do one better when they release next year.

As long as both of them are whipping the American automakes backside, I'm happy. ;-)
csentil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2007, 17:33   #324
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pune
Posts: 2,450
Thanked: 955 Times
Default

[quote=ST7677;525703]
9kmpl for a Rev happy engine is very good. (I hope you understand that by Rev happy he means - when pushed hard)
Try pushing Elantra / Corolla / or even Octavia 1.8TPI and you will see mileage going to 6-7kmpl.
quote]

Octavia 1.8 TPI driven at 140-150kmph on some of the expressway sections and at around 120kmph on most of the remaining the expressway sections returns us an FE 11 to 12!

And yes, it's a dated engine compared to Civic...
But looking at Rev happy FE, I must say numbers matter and not the date of the technology....

And I still like Civic for the Honda refinement and smooth gearshift.
octavia gearbox sucks.

I have no idea about elantra/corolla...
anandpadhye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2007, 18:28   #325
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,350
Thanked: 31 Times
Default

You'll have to ask Tadu for the Elantra no's. he's the one who does 200+ on it.
csentil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2007, 11:16   #326
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pune
Posts: 161
Thanked: 3 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ST7677 View Post
My data is from my own first hand experience.

I car pool with my neighbor who owns a Corolla. We take the same route same timings and sometimes even drive the others car. And at times we have even ripped them together...
On a mixed route, he consistently gets 9 kmpl where as I get close to 10 kmpl both with A/C on.
Hmmm....well, I can have read posts by other TBHP members who own the Corolla that the mileage is any day not less than 10 kmpl with AC. There was also a post of a member who owns the automatic Corolla and he gets 10-11 kmpl consistently, so my FE calculations are correct and I have done the same multiple times with my manual version.
samirsarkar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2007, 13:43   #327
Senior - BHPian
 
ST7677's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,045
Thanked: 45 Times
Default

Quote:
Octavia 1.8 TPI driven at 140-150kmph on some of the expressway sections and at around 120kmph on most of the remaining the expressway sections returns us an FE 11 to 12!
Civic gives around 13kmpl, in that speed range... Actually if not pushed hard, till about 140kmph the car runs in economy mode (in 5th gear)!
By rev happy, I meant hard accelerations (till it hits the rev limiter), generally speeding between the lights
That's where the mileage goes down to 9.

Quote:
Hmmm....well, I can have read posts by other TBHP members who own the Corolla that the mileage is any day not less than 10 kmpl with AC. There was also a post of a member who owns the automatic Corolla and he gets 10-11 kmpl consistently, so my FE calculations are correct and I have done the same multiple times with my manual version.
It all depends on driving condition. The cars which give 15kmpl in Delhi give around 13kmpl in Bangalore!

Anyway, I have made my point and I don't want to debate this further. I am sure anybody evaluating CIivc would also be evaluating Corolla and would make a choice based on his data...

Last edited by ST7677 : 9th August 2007 at 14:00.
ST7677 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2007, 21:43   #328
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 19
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

I agree to the toyota bit..FE is excellent in any velocity range..I havent got anything less than 11(least on the awful Hosur Rd, Blore) and the numbers are around 13-14 on longhauls. I dont think AC makes much of a difference in numbers. And yeah it depends a lot on the driving style..you waste tons of fuel if you unnecessarily rev up in stop go traffic or if you do jack rabbit starts and hard braking. Agree with ST that ppl on the lookout in this segment,do evaluate these 2 cars and make a choice based on the data that one could muster.
ashams_s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2007, 23:31   #329
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 569
Thanked: 5 Times
Default What do these "modern high-tech" engines deliver?

I have friends who own Corolla and the civic, and comparing these to my ancient baleno, i am disappointed with lack of improvement in FE of these new engines. The power is marginally higher, but the FE is worse than the 8-10 year old engine. Its not that the petrol based IC engine technology has peaked on power delivery/FE, but the lack of government pressure to encourage more FE vehicles.
(edit: did not see this post: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...tml#post470419 (Stringent Emission Norms by 2010) )
Other than the diesel powered Laura/Octavia, engines in this power bracket in vehicles of this category have not improved on this important factor.. They are a number of you who rave about how advanced these engines are - this does not translate to an impressive improvement in PS/CC, nor FE.

This reminds me of the MHz/GHz race of microprocessors in PCs and this rarely translated to performance improvement of common/popular apps..

Last edited by rangaraj : 9th August 2007 at 23:44.
rangaraj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2007, 23:54   #330
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 569
Thanked: 5 Times
Default This is more like it..!!!

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/intern...tml#post527579 (Mercedes Dies-otto 1.8L Turbo - 285bhp / 295Nm !!!)
gives an idea of the limit of what technology can provide.. Engines being supplied to us are no way high-tech or anywhere close to this class...
rangaraj is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brand new ANHC or used Civic to keep for 10 years. Edit: Got a 2007 Honda Civic sumeethaldankar Sedans 117 29th May 2013 10:31
Honda City Vs Honda Civic E Vs Honda Civic V (pre-owned) drkunaldas Sedans 4 31st October 2010 18:07
All Laura Owners and Accord Owners, Please stand up personified Sedans 9 11th December 2008 17:09
UK Honda Civic owners warned of flaw iTNerd The International Automotive Scene 1 25th March 2008 23:09


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 08:20.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks