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Old 21st September 2015, 23:53   #376
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Default Re: Toyota Innova: My Pre-worshipped Black Workhorse

I am taking a contrarian view here.

I don't get the fuss about the accident. Chassis bending does happen even in not so serious accidents . This being a body on frame vehicle , a few parts of the chassis can be easily replaced instead of repairing. A vehicle is considered to be an accidental vehicle if and only if its a total loss meaning salvage. Most used vehicles would have gone through 1 minor to medium accident or the other.

I can give you an example. Our Santro was rear ended by an Indica at around 40 kmph. The chassis had a small bend and we ended up straightening it. There was a mild change in road manners that no one would even realize if they hadn't driven the same car before the accident. This straightening was done because we went to a local garage . The Hyundai ASC wanted 96k while the local garage fixed it for 18k. So don't be surprised by the high bills at the ASC.

I repeat only a total loss or salvage car is considered accidental. If I were the owner I wouldn't entertain any claims after I sold the car. When we sold our Santro, no one even found out unless they asked about any accidents. When I told a buyer(1 out of 15 probable buyers) on the phone that the car had a rear ending accident 5 years before,the person wasn't interested. But then finding 10 year old car without even a minor accident in India is like finding a dinosaur.

The owner's dad might be wrong/lying when he said that . But crap does take place in life , so simply move on. No need to make your family members paranoid about the safety of the car as the car has been fixed properly to ensure that there is no structural damage.

But I am quite surprised that the previous owner is ready to buy back the vehicle.When I was searching for a Figo to replace the Santro , I went through insurance records of prospective vehicles. The insurance records told me that my car which I purchased had undergone a front bumper and front bonnet painting and the claim amount was 7k . This matched with the owner's version and there were no other repainted panels on the car.The insurance records also showed that no claim was made in the previous years as he had accumulated the no claim bonus.

Another vehicle did not have insurance. The dealer was stupid enough to attach the previous insurance papers which had expired 6 months back to signal something fishy. One call to the insurance let me know that the vehicle was sold as scrap.

Last edited by Ragavsr : 22nd September 2015 at 00:00.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 00:13   #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
I don't get the fuss about the accident. Chassis bending does happen even in not so serious accidents . This being a body on frame vehicle , a few parts of the chassis can be easily replaced instead of repairing.
If I can answer on behalf of Deepak aka AutoIndian,

The fuss is all about not being told the truth when the deal was done with the seller. When one is buying with such hefty price of 7.5L there is a need to have transparency.

Buying a car be it New or Used, a car is a car and one will NOT be happy and grinning after knowing about the accident. Had he known regarding the accident before the purchase, he wouldn't have bought the car in the first place.

He'll not be happy driving and that 'confidence' no longer remains after one gets to know such details.

You may be having a different way of thinking and evaluating so it may be easy for you to accept it but not the case with all. I for one agree with Deepak.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 00:23   #378
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Default Re: Toyota Innova: My Pre-worshipped Black Workhorse

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
The fuss is all about not being told the truth when the deal was done with the seller. When one is buying with such hefty price of 7.5L there is a need to have transparency.
I am sorry but we do not live in an ideal world.

The onus is completely on the buyer to do all the checks he can before purchasing a car. One can only hope for, but not depend on transparency from the seller.

Last edited by Eddy : 22nd September 2015 at 05:17.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 09:20   #379
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I am sorry but we do not live in an ideal world.

The onus is completely on the buyer to do all the checks he can before purchasing a car. One can only hope for, but not depend on transparency from the seller.

+1. There are so many total loss cars which are brought back by doing sub standard repairs. Leave that , every car thats run over a lakh kilometres will have its odometer rolled back at the dealer. I know of a friend , an unethical one who rolled back a Renault Logan clocked 5.5 lakh Km to 1.5 lakh KM and sold it.

A known garage got a total loss 6 month old Vento for around 4 lakh and repaired and sold it for 7.5 lakh. It is incidents like these that scare me away from used cars especially from dealers. I ensure that I deal with the same person whose face is on the RC book and look out for gaps in insurance. Ideally, there should be insurance renewal around the original purchase rate because no sane person is going to drive a newish car without insurance.

Last edited by Ragavsr : 22nd September 2015 at 09:24.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 09:38   #380
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Default Re: Toyota Innova: My Pre-worshipped Black Workhorse

No matter how much ever one tries to cover up,nothing misses out of keen observation.There are lot of ways by which one could look out for-
1-Insurance History
2-Service history
3-Seller's attitude
4-Decals,yes you heard it right.
Let me share an example-My friend was on the look out for a second hand car.We zeroed in on a swift Diesel. He finds one on olx and visits the seller at night (mistake no1).He sees the car and is satisfied and calls me up.Mind you he is just a normal guy,knows very less about cars. He asks me to accompany him during the day of the purchase. I see the car.But when I saw the decals it seemed something wasn't right. They were not placed where they were to be. I asked the owner.He said he had to get the tailgate painted as the paint had chipped off,but my gut feeling said something wasn't right.I tell my friend about my doubt and we walk away on the pretext that he will do an on line transfer and then take the delivery.In the mean time we pull out the service history and guess what,it had undergone a major body work two years back. Reason,wall had collapsed on the car.
There is no use crying over spilt milk. Better to settle it at the earliest.
Looking back at all the posts here,I have decided to never buy pre owned cars unless and until from a very known source.
PS-My friend now owns a new Polo Diesel.

Last edited by rakesh_r : 22nd September 2015 at 09:41.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 01:04   #381
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Default Re: Toyota Innova: My Pre-worshipped Black Workhorse

Oh my God, it's been a serious discussion here.

Just to let you all know, I have met Deepak a couple of times and we had a long discussion over the vehicle. The issue came up only when Deepak wanted to have a second key due to which the box opened up and things poured out.
Secondly he never asked the owner to buyback the vehicle. He had just called them up to enquire if they had the code so as to have the second key ordered and in meanwhile narrated the history. Maybe due to guilt, the previous owner offered a buyback.

Another point to make here is that due to a common friend to Deepak and previous owner of Blackhorse, the vehicle was purchased on basic inspection and trust factor. I know and as many will agree that it's the responsibility of the buyer to check the vehicle and it's history before finalizing the deal. But if you have a known party, then usually a person tends to trust factor.
Somehow I missed joining Deepak during his first inspection visit last November and neither could I meet during the time of delivery.

As Deepak has mentioned in a previous post, Toyota U trust has valued the car. I am aware of the offer and according to me it is not a good deal. But still Deepak is open for it if he goes for a new Innova but that's the last option.
He can any given day get rid of the vehicle by selling it through various Internet sites, but he does not want another person to get an accident vehicle. Hat's off to him!!
I just pray that he gets relieved from this stress.

No doubt the car runs good after the latest replacement of bearings which again is something to be noted that the vehicle has only done 60-65k and the bearings had to be replaced (front LH and rear RH were worn off).
But again it hurts when you come to know that the car was involved in a major accident.

Last edited by SHAHBAAZ : 23rd September 2015 at 01:25.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 06:34   #382
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@Shahbazz good inputs.

Wheel bearings should have a long life but can easily get damaged due to water wading. Indian roads, especially urban, are water logged at drop of hat. So that is not, to me, a problem symptom.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 09:48   #383
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Default Re: Toyota Innova: My Pre-worshipped Black Workhorse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragavsr View Post
I am taking a contrarian view here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
If I can answer on behalf of Deepak aka AutoIndian,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
I am sorry but we do not live in an ideal world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rakesh_r View Post
No matter how much ever one tries to cover up,nothing misses out of keen observation.There are lot of ways by which one could look out for
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHAHBAAZ View Post
Oh my God, it's been a serious discussion here.

Just to let you all know, I have met Deepak a couple of times and we had a long discussion over the vehicle. The issue came up only when
I respect and appreciate the views of all esteemed TBHP members, whether contrarian or conformist. Shahbaaz has summed up my saga very aptly as he's been very close to the situation, right from day-1. Thank you for that Shahbaaz.

We can keep on debating endlessly, what precautions could have been taken, cross verifications of service history, insurance claims before commitment, genuineness of the seller etc. Those things are past and I have learnt my lessons (they say experience is the biggest teacher). My biggest worry now is to get at least some portion of my hard earned money back (if not all). Though the owner has intentions to buy back the car, he has been very slow in initiating the transaction (obviously citing financial reasons). I have given him an option of transferring in two or more installments. That way it won't be a burden for him and I too can start looking out for a replacement.

Round the clock, I am checking my e-mails crazily just to get the confirmation on transaction initiation. I am hopeful that there would be some positive outcome at least by the end of this week, fingers tightly crossed.

Last edited by AutoIndian : 23rd September 2015 at 10:01.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 10:04   #384
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Default Re: Toyota Innova: My Pre-worshipped Black Workhorse

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
I respect and appreciate the views of all esteemed TBHP members, whether contrarian or conformist. Shahbaaz has summed up my saga very aptly as he's been very close to the situation, right from day-1. Thank you for that Shahbaaz.

We can keep on debating endlessly, what precautions could have been taken, cross verifications of service history, insurance claims before commitment, genuineness of the seller etc. Those things are past and I have learnt my lessons (they say experience is the biggest teacher). My biggest worry now is to get at least some portion of my hard earned money back (if not all). Though the owner has intentions to buy back the car, he has been very slow in initiating the transaction (obviously citing financial reasons). I have given him an option of transferring in two or more installments. That way it won't be a burden for him and I too can start looking out for a replacement.

Round the clock, I am checking my e-mails crazily just to get the confirmation on transaction initiation. I am hopeful that there would be some positive outcome at least by the end of this week, fingers tightly crossed.
I too was a victim (had bought a second hand ZMA) but a bit different.Everything was good on outside but not so good inside. The bike only had run 5k on the odo when i bought it.Initially i was very happy with the purchase.But in due course of time i started observing some rust on the engine mount side. I showed the bike to one of my trusted mechie in Pune (bike was bought in Mumbai,brought it to Pune when I shifted base).My worst fears came true.The bike was involved in an accident where the chassis was damaged.The previous owner repaired it and the welding was not done properly.Plus the engine used to start sounding like a ballbearing been shaken inside a metallic container.Initially i got the upper half of the engine replaced but still it remained.Eventually with a heavy heart I had to sell it off with a heavy loss.
I can understand the dilemma you are going through,though financially my case is nothing.

Last edited by rakesh_r : 23rd September 2015 at 10:06.
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Old 25th September 2015, 12:19   #385
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Default Re: Toyota Innova: My Pre-worshipped Black Workhorse

Been following this thread for quite some time. Even though I can see the enormous amounts of financial sense it makes to buy used, I've never done so in my entire history of owning 5 - 6 automobiles. AutoIndians' thread actually got me thinking on whether it was time for me to change my perspective on used cars, and then this happens. Now I'm pretty sure I'll never spend big money on anything used. Coming to the dilemma that AutoIndian is in right now - I do understand your pain and angst at the total lack of scruples on the part of the seller (I don't buy the 'oh I never knew' stories).

These inputs are a bit late, but few points you might want to consider:
1. You have been very satisfied with your purchase and it has given you trouble free service all along.
2. Even though it has been through a major shunt (In terms of money spent on fixing it), it appears to have been repaired well
3. You did get it at a good price
4. The only warning signs are the few noises you described (cant find the references now, but I remember reading)
5. Your displeasure appears to be more in the mind and less with the car

Get a knowledgeable guy to check #4 and the complete vehicle in general. If it is something major (whether or not related to the shunt) I'd say the approach you have taken is probably the only way out.

OTOH, if it turns out to be minor, why not keep the car? Don't bother making a new set of keys - just be doubly careful with the one you have and use it for 5 years or so. Then dump it and go for a new one.

The probability of receiving a problem car in a used car transaction - in spite of taking precautions is non-zero. Not implying you should brush problems under the carpet - just acknowledge and come to terms with them; and realize that the situation may not be as bad as it looks.

Good luck.
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Old 25th September 2015, 23:22   #386
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Default Re: Toyota Innova: My Pre-worshipped Black Workhorse

For the last two weeks I was hearing a "khad-khad" sort of rattling sound from rear part of the vehicle. It would aggravate over road undulations (speed bumps or potholes). On plain roads the noise would vanish. Initially I thought the spare wheel would have been loosely fitted or the dangling chain is making noise. So I got the spare wheel tightened from a local tyre shop. Also fixed the dangling chain in the tyre valve. This however did not help in eliminating the noise.

As I am very paranoid with any kind of noises coming from the car, I called up my FNG today morning and asked him if he can address this issue. Going all the way to DSK Toyota, just for this small issue and that too without an appointment was not worth it. Reached the garage Venus Auto, and took the owner, Harish for a test drive. He sat at the back and observed for various noises. He too immediately acknowledged the noise. He asked me to stop midway and banged on the car at several placed to reproduce the noise, but was unsuccessful. After coming back to garage he asked his mechanic to lift the car on ram. He thoroughly checked the whole underbody, but nothing was found to be lose, neither the suspension not the silencer. He then checked the right rear door. On closing the door it was making the typical metal clinging sound. His mechanic opened the door panel. The lock was removed, greased. Since the door was earlier tinkered it was touching the frame at 2-3 points. The door was hammered back in those places. We then took another test drive on the same route, and voila the sound was gone for good.

Since the car had become dirty after the recent rains in Pune, had a good car wash. Total damage to the pocket - Rs 450/- (door lock greasing, door tinkering Rs 200/- and car washing Rs 250/-). Came back home totally satisfied.

On my way back I crossed another black Innova, that of dear friend and TBHPian Shahbaaz. Wished him "Eid Mubarak" and exchanged pleasantries. I wanted to have a detailed discussion about the recent happenings, but since he was in a hurry due to festivities at home, didn't bog him much.

Last edited by AutoIndian : 25th September 2015 at 23:24.
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Old 27th September 2015, 01:02   #387
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Came back home totally satisfied.
Wow! This one comment is hard to type for a person even after a visit to the ASCs nowadays, which charge premiums for the so-called 'Premium' services on offer. Glad that the owner of the FNG was so helpful and proactive in his approach. May such FNGs grow!

What about some pics of the Workhorse, with some nice backgrounds or maybe a planned photoshoot?

EDIT - What is this "Dangling Chain"?
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Old 27th September 2015, 13:09   #388
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Default Re: Toyota Innova: My Pre-worshipped Black Workhorse

Dangling chain! Well to lower down the Stepney of an Innova there is a mechanism using a chain like in a case of a crane. On a very rough road one tends to hear that sound but only if you have good ears to hear them.

On the FNG, well the workshop where Deepak visited is really a good place. The owners have good knowledge to take care of varied vehicles.
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Old 27th September 2015, 13:32   #389
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Default Re: Toyota Innova: My Pre-worshipped Black Workhorse

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Originally Posted by vin11 View Post
EDIT - What is this "Dangling Chain"?
As Shahbaaz has rightly pointed above this is the "chain-pulley" mechanism to hold the spare wheel in place. There is a long rod with an "eye" or "loop" at one end. This rod has to be inserted from a hole at the centre of the rear bumper into a slot. When turned anticlockwise it lowers down the spare wheel and vice versa.

Last edited by ampere : 27th September 2015 at 14:07. Reason: Fixed quotes
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Old 1st October 2015, 00:28   #390
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Default Re: Toyota Innova: My Pre-worshipped Black Workhorse

Hi friends,
Trying to write down one year experience of my 2009 pre-owned black beauty, but due to work load couldn't and to make it worse, there is a problem with Internet speed to Atleast share the pics. Finally got it uploaded today.
On 24th September 2014, I had purchased this Innova from Pune city and have clocked around 15k in last 12 months (of which 4 months the vehicle was idle as I was out of country). But anyways it has been a great experience driving around within the city and couple of long inter state trips.

Hopefully once I am free, I will pen down my experiences.
Meanwhile attaching here few pics after polishing this beauty.
Deepak, sorry could not call you when I started this polishing process.
Attached Thumbnails
Toyota Innova: My Pre-worshipped Black Workhorse-dsc_0295.jpg  

Toyota Innova: My Pre-worshipped Black Workhorse-dsc_0292.jpg  

Toyota Innova: My Pre-worshipped Black Workhorse-dsc_0287.jpg  

Toyota Innova: My Pre-worshipped Black Workhorse-dsc_0277.jpg  


Last edited by SHAHBAAZ : 1st October 2015 at 00:41.
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