Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > Team-BHP Reviews > Test-Drives & Initial Ownership Reports


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12th May 2015, 11:22   #16
BHPian
 
petroguzzler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Madras
Posts: 384
Thanked: 149 Times
Default Re: Driven: Swift with Electronic Clutch Management (ECM). And some other ATs with Schaeff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajeevraj View Post
More recently there was a bike also-TVS Jive which did not have a clutch but where you had to change gears the normal way.

I don't think the TVS Jive was very successful.
The TVS Jive had a similar mechanism. The concept seems a bit neither here nor there. If a person wants convenience, he would go for an AMT or any automatic (DSG, CVT or Torque convertor). If a person likes driving MT's, he would defnitely feel shortchanged, as IMHO, the lack of the clutch would dilute the purity of an MT.

Last edited by petroguzzler : 12th May 2015 at 11:24.
petroguzzler is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2015, 11:40   #17
Senior - BHPian
 
sandeepmohan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Wellington
Posts: 1,945
Thanked: 1,627 Times
Default Re: Driven: Swift with Electronic Clutch Management (ECM). And some other ATs with Schaeff

Quote:
Originally Posted by noopster View Post
That's this: you have to take your foot off the gas when shifting gears!
Before I got to this line, I was thinking, hey, this (ECM technology) sounds really cool. Like how it is when you drive in manual, in a computer/console game. You never let go of the accelerator key and shift gears with the two alternate keys. Sweet.

However; as you said, ECM may find favour in commercial vehicles as the clutch units are generally non user friendly.

I was always under the impression that CVT is superior to a Torque Converter units. Guess it is the other way round.

I have experienced a cvt gearbox in a 2012 (or end 2011) Audi A6 2.0 Tdi. It could easily keep up with the power delivery of the engine and the best cvt I have experienced.

Volvo has something called an I Shift on some models of their long distance buses. Is this AMT based or something else? What do their low floor city buses use? I've seen drivers flip switches between drive modes. No gear stick.

Yes; Nissan are advertising big on tv for their Sunny with Sports mode. Should make for a nice drift car more than anything else. Just keep stock of some vomit bags.

Last edited by sandeepmohan : 12th May 2015 at 11:43.
sandeepmohan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2015, 12:05   #18
Team-BHP Support
 
noopster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 8,666
Thanked: 9,198 Times
Default Re: Driven: Swift with Electronic Clutch Management (ECM). And some other ATs with Schaeff

Quote:
Originally Posted by S2!!! View Post
A quick question: when you re-press the accelerator after shifting, is there any of the jerky motion felt that you would from a typical manual gearbox (eg. when you lift off the clutch a little too early) or was the transition seamless?
It was quite seamless, similar to the way an experienced driver shifts a regular manual tranny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soumobakshi View Post
With the ECM module installed, how did you find the vehicle to drive in a city where you are to do a Half Clutch at times or Slipping of Clutch scenario ?
Good question. We did the hill test and it worked fine. The ECM accounts for clutch slip required in such situations. Though it is annoying not having precise control, I guess it's better than a pure AT scenario where you don't have this option at all!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rxpaul View Post
A very informative report ! Could this ECM be retrofitted into existing manual box cars? That could be a market for this product and that if it doesn't muck around with the 'average'. The DSG, Torque Inv & CVT aren't retrofits, not sure about the AMT though?
Schaeffler folks were talking about fitting it into new cars only. Am not sure about the retrofit but am sure it's possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jinojohnt View Post
Does this have a button on the gear lever for actuating the clutch?
No it doesn't. The clutch actuation is fully automatic in this case. No manual option.
noopster is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2015, 12:10   #19
BHPian
 
dreamliner17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 80
Thanked: 71 Times
Default Re: Driven: Swift with Electronic Clutch Management (ECM). And some other ATs with Schaeff

A very interesting read noopster !

The first thing that came to my mind after reading your post, was my experience with a TVS Jive at a TVS service center a few years back. I just happened to ride it by chance and i had no intentions of riding it. But yes, the first thing when you ride/drive a 'manual' without a clutch, makes you bewildered. I had to concentrate on 'not' using my left hand soo much that i couldn't really enjoy the clutchless ride. However, you could start in any gear and drive in higher gears at lower speeds (though i didnt try doing lower speeds at high gears). I got stuck while taking a U-turn and i somehow managed to stall the engine and it shut off. Now i was halfway in the middle of the opposite side, the gear was engaged and hence the rear wheel locked, traffic was honking and people wondering as to what 'activity' im doing in the middle of the road, i had no clutch in the bike, and i was dragging the bike to cover the remaining distance. I was fully confused as to how i should have tackled the situation! Next, I just waited for 2 mins, regained my composure and kicked-started it and off i went. So that was my first experience with a clutchless - manual geared vehicle !

Coming back to the point, the clutchless - manual or ECM in this case is a trade-off between a manual and an automatic. It gives you the liberty of changing gears at your will without the hassles associated with a clutch. IMHO, this concept can be 'acceptable' if a person 'enjoys' changing gears and the gears are smooth to engage. It may prove to be a disaster on a notchy gearbox. If given this option in a car, i think i will enjoy this technique since i like shifting gears manually and it would reduce the burden of a clutch. I would not compare this to automatics as they are in a separate league altogether.
dreamliner17 is offline   (3) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2015, 13:06   #20
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 77
Thanked: 69 Times
Default Re: Driven: Swift with Electronic Clutch Management (ECM). And some other ATs with Schaeff

Quote:
Originally Posted by noopster View Post
It was quite seamless, similar to the way an experienced driver shifts a regular manual tranny.


Good question. We did the hill test and it worked fine. The ECM accounts for clutch slip required in such situations. Though it is annoying not having precise control, I guess it's better than a pure AT scenario where you don't have this option at all!
Well, there was a thread a few months ago saying Bosch is also developing a similar system. Despite the non-presence of jerkiness and the clutch slip on hill tests, just wondering what would be the overall life / ageing of the ECM. If I remember, Hero Honda Street was also a similar model (I don't think this was an ECM, but was a clutch less transmisstion; also haven't ridden one, so can't comment) apart from the TVS Jive which is mentioned in posts above (haven't ridden this either).

My understanding (technically very limited, so please don't beat me up) clutch less transmission means an intense electronic / mechanical system which automatically determines the accelerator input and on no feedback (no depression on the accelerator) takes into the 'clutch depress' mode. How does this:
1. Affect the overall fuel efficiency (you have to remember to shift back to neutral everytime)
2. Affect the overall transmission handling (both in terms of the clutch and gear transmission changes) since clutch slipping is also managed electronically. Both medium term (maintenance of clutch, replacement etc.) and long term (impact on the gearbox, engine etc.)

Was such kind of a mechanism launched commercially launched in other markets? Does anyone have any info on this?
turboturtle is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2015, 13:27   #21
BHPian
 
saion666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: WB-06/TS-07
Posts: 287
Thanked: 247 Times
Default Re: Driven: Swift with Electronic Clutch Management (ECM). And some other ATs with Schaeff

The ECM sounds interesting to me. In a congested city like Kolkata my left hand doesnt pain as much as my leg shifting a manual gear. I wouldnt mind having such a setup where you have the controls to shift the gear at your will along with resting your foot. Like somebody pointed out that the effort of clutch slippage is done automatically.

It all boils down to giving up the instinct that we have developed over the years driving a MT, and am sure it wouldnt take more than a month o adapt to this new system.

However having said that I agree that the low cost AMT has actually changed the game a bit but then if cars with this ECM are priced a bit lower than the AMT, you never know that there maybe a market for this.

Last edited by saion666 : 12th May 2015 at 13:28.
saion666 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2015, 13:35   #22
NPV
Distinguished - BHPian
 
NPV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Namma Bengaluru
Posts: 4,835
Thanked: 4,784 Times
Default Re: Driven: Swift with Electronic Clutch Management (ECM). And some other ATs with Schaeff

@noopster - Good Report, thanks for sharing!
After my recent test drives of the Alto K10 and Celerio AMTs I can imagine how the ECM with a manual transmission type gear knob (and no clutch pedal!) will feel like, it will be confusing as hell

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 12th May 2015 at 18:47. Reason: typo
NPV is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2015, 13:57   #23
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 66
Thanked: 120 Times
Default Re: Driven: Swift with Electronic Clutch Management (ECM). And some other ATs with Schaeff

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamliner17 View Post
I got stuck while taking a U-turn and i somehow managed to stall the engine and it shut off.
Is it possible to stall an ECM? The technology is supposed to help drivers in not stalling.
subhro1988 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2015, 15:42   #24
Distinguished - BHPian
 
condor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Speed-brkr City
Posts: 10,758
Thanked: 4,348 Times
Default Re: Driven: Swift with Electronic Clutch Management (ECM). And some other ATs with Schaeff

@Noop, intresting product there. So can it be retrofitted into *Any car we have in IN ? And what is the cost that they are indicating at ?
condor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2015, 16:22   #25
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Chennai
Posts: 37
Thanked: 26 Times
Smile Re: Driven: Swift with Electronic Clutch Management (ECM). And some other ATs with Schaeff

Hello there. I participated in the dynamic testing event too, but this was at the Westin, Chennai. We had the same line up of cars – 3 imports and 2 stocks to drive around. I took a slightly longer route to judge the transmission though.

I was one of the first participants there and therefore got a good opp to talk to the guys at Schaeffer before we drove the cars.

In my opinion, they should have probably brought 5 of the same cars to test the transmissions because your judgment gets influenced by the cars that come equipped with them because each car offers a unique driving experience. I was talking to the other participants and one pointed out that he liked the AMT because the ‘Corsa felt pretty good and well planted’

At the end, we were asked to rank the 5 transmissions in the order of preference. Here was mine – DCT, ECM, AMT, AT and CVT. Let me justify my choices briefly.

1. DCT / DSG
I opted to take the DCT Polo out for a drive first because I wanted to first understand the difference between the Euro spec and Indian spec ones as I have driven the Polo GT TSI quite a lot. There was quite some difference when it came to the car and the ride but that’s off topic.

The guys at Schaeffer also took the time (maybe because I was the first LOL) to explain the tech behind the DSG – the fact that there are two shafts for odd and even gears.

The DSG, like how @Noopster put it, felt extremely good. The shifts are so subtle that you hardly notice them unless you have a keen observation skill. The shifts are also smooth when you dunk the throttle and the transmission down-shifts.

I think the DSG offers the best driving enthusiasm when compared to all other ATs. Putting this #1 is to an extent self-explanatory.

2. ECM
Call me weird, but the ECM suited my driving style perfectly because as a practice, I’m somebody who coasts down in neutral while driving a regular MT. With the ECM config, it requires you to come to Neutral whenever you want to stop.

The best part about ECM is that it offers the highest flexibility because in all practicality, it is a MT without a clutch pedal. You can shift from 2-4, 3-5, any other liable shift combination. Mind you, it has a clutch. Just no clutch pedal.

In my opinion, the biggest stress of driving a MT in high traffic is the operation of the clutch to change gears. ECM removes that element from the equation completely. It also gets a forward creep function to keep the car moving.

So, if left to me, I would not compare the ECM to any other AT transmission just because it does not have a clutch pedal.

The only issue I pointed out to the guys was the fact that when you shift to 1, the car immediately creeps forward. This pick up is something that you have to get used to because it is something that you can normally control with the clutch pedal, which is non-existent here.

Shifting gears also takes the usual routine minus the clutch where you take your foot off the throttle pedal.

The ECM also offers quite a lot of driving enthusiasm which other ATs lack (except DSG )

3. AMT
AMT is also a promising option that gives an advantage of both worlds – AT and MT. But the shifts were pretty obvious. You can feel the ‘gear-shocks’ if you can call it that. So, it feels mostly like a manual that automatically changes gears. (Eh? Yes, similar feeling).

But this is something almost everybody has experienced in the Altos/Celerios quite a lot and the one in the Corsa was no different.

4. AT
I have some emotionally reserved respect for torque converter ATs for some reason. But I’d still put that below the AMT as it does not give you any sort of flexibility and further more reduces driving enthusiasm.

It does have a Hill hold control but the worst part is that it does not hold when you switch off the AC for some Torque related reason. I couldn’t find a difference between D and 2 mode as well.

5. CVT
This is certainly not the best of transmission systems. The Micra was loud and I couldn’t help but look at the tachometer – 3500 RPM at 40 kmph?

The only positive about this is that it does not have any gears and therefore no gear shocks. But the negatives add a lot more than the positives.


Let me know what you guys think.
vigvr is offline   (8) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2015, 16:29   #26
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Pune
Posts: 258
Thanked: 26 Times
Default Re: Driven: Swift with Electronic Clutch Management (ECM). And some other ATs with Schaeff

This is already done by Mr Himanshu.
Visit their site at http://automateindia.in/contacts.aspx
I once had his system installed on my Maruti 800.
Its a good system, but had its flaws. I wouldnt recommend it till its mature enough. You dont want to be stranded on a Highway on a rainy day, due to the electonic system going kaput.
subscrive is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2015, 16:47   #27
D4D
BHPian
 
D4D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Garden City
Posts: 482
Thanked: 327 Times
Default Re: Driven: Swift with Electronic Clutch Management (ECM). And some other ATs with Schaeff

Who comes up with such ideas?
Honestly, they've wasted a hell lot of time and money on giving a thing that has no value.

With an AT(whether AMT/TQ/DSG/CVT):
  • Your Left hand rests
  • Your Left leg rests

Unfortunately, this is a system where you're left hand is still doing the work of changing gears just like in a manual transmission. Drive it in peak traffic, it'll be almost as much as pain as an an MT your shoulder still has a lot of work to do. Left leg is relaxed though.

Need of the hour is an AT(any type) that shift quickly and has a triptonic mode. A well programmed ECU can help achieve both.
D4D is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2015, 17:34   #28
Senior - BHPian
 
mail4ajo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 1,834
Thanked: 222 Times
Default Re: Driven: Swift with Electronic Clutch Management (ECM). And some other ATs with Schaeff

How does the reverse gear work here? Is there a special procedure to do so?
mail4ajo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2015, 18:02   #29
Team-BHP Support
 
noopster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pune
Posts: 8,666
Thanked: 9,198 Times
Default Re: Driven: Swift with Electronic Clutch Management (ECM). And some other ATs with Schaeff

Quote:
Originally Posted by vigvr View Post
In my opinion, the biggest stress of driving a MT in high traffic is the operation of the clutch to change gears. ECM removes that element from the equation completely. It also gets a forward creep function to keep the car moving.
It's nice to get a contrary viewpoint . Your post resonates with what the Schaffler folks told me some of the other testers had said (including the taxi operators I had mentioned in my review).
Not surprised that both of us have CVT at the bottom of our respective lists! Though in all honesty I have driven a CVT mated to a 2.5 Nissan Altima for 3500 miles in the US a couple of years ago and it felt nowhere like the Micra experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
@Noop, intresting product there. So can it be retrofitted into *Any car we have in IN ? And what is the cost that they are indicating at ?
They are looking at the mass market, condor, and will offer this as OE on production cars. Am sure there is an aftermarket demand but the scale on which this research was conducted leads me to believe they are serious about making a big investment, that too in the A/B segment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D4D View Post
Who comes up with such ideas?
Honestly, they've wasted a hell lot of time and money on giving a thing that has no value.
That was my opinion, honestly. But if the research proves there's a market they are well within their rights to give it a go. You never know- if marketed well, it could just take off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mail4ajo View Post
How does the reverse gear work here? Is there a special procedure to do so?
Slot into reverse and go!
The only thing missing is the clutch pedal, otherwise it's exactly like driving a manual.
noopster is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2015, 18:28   #30
Senior - BHPian
 
fiat_tarun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Pune / Mysore
Posts: 1,113
Thanked: 582 Times
Default Re: Driven: Swift with Electronic Clutch Management (ECM). And some other ATs with Schaeff

Interesting that companies are still exploring this auto clutch technology. There is a guy in Pune who does this auto clutch thing for any car for around Rs.25000 - Rs.30000. A colleague had it done on his Logan and it is very similar to the system described here. It had a sensor on the gear knob which when covered would engage the clutch. If the rpm dropped too low the clutch would automatically engage and it also had the creep function in first gear.

Noopster & vigvr - what is the trigger here for the clutch to engage ?
fiat_tarun is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bosch develops new electronic clutch accelerate89 Technical Stuff 26 31st March 2017 08:57
Spy shots: 2013 Cadillac ATS RWD sedan sidindica The International Automotive Scene 9 24th May 2012 21:21
Quick review of Yokohama Geolandar ATS 235/75 R15 anoshdhondy Tyre & Alloy wheel Section 5 11th May 2011 21:11
Need some help for Mitsubishi Lancer ECM issue Raj_d Technical Stuff 6 16th September 2009 13:45


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 04:31.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks