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Old 4th September 2016, 10:49   #151
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Old 4th September 2016, 14:05   #152
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@akshay, Great review
@ajmat, Thanks for posting the launch event and detailed snaps of Wrangler !

Jeep has basically introduced these variants for branding and to improve on their aspirational quotient in the market, before the launch of their locally manufactured version.

Hence the pricing. Stupid American strategy IMO. Cherokee joins the likes of Toyota Prado with mindless pricing in Indian market .

Ford Endy's demand will sore for sure :-) !!
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Old 4th September 2016, 15:48   #153
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As a former 2-door Wrangler soft-top owner, I totally understand the pain & frustration of all those people who have been eagerly waiting for the Jeep launch in India. After migrating from India, that open Wrangler with its 4.0 litre Petrol engine was a dream vehicle for me too, once. The reality of living daily with a crude Jeep with its crappy Yank quality soured the dream - I loved it & hated it in equal measure (long story ), but it was a rite of passage for me too and a tick off the bucket list! I used to have a Bullet in the 80s - so am a glutton for punishment!

But, on a contradictory note to most of the posts above, let me congratulate the Govt of India for sticking to their guns & maintaining the 100%+ duty on CBU products. The results speak for themselves - we have millions of vehicles being produced in India. If you want to sell in numbers in India, only option is to manufacture locally, or at least assemble CKD kits. For e.g. Fortuner & Endeavour

Compare that to a series of pathetically weak governments in Australia, who reduced the import duty on automobiles from 25% to 0% (so that they could negotiate some free trade agreements for meat & dairy!) and killed off the local car manufacturing industry - Ford will close this month, GM Holden & Toyota in 2017. The loss of tens of thousands of direct & indirect jobs will cripple an already limping economy.

I think a lot of people (even car-savvy ones) were unrealistic in their price estimates (or rather, hopes!) of Jeeps in India. All over the world, the Grand Cherokee competes directly with "proper" 4x4 (low-range gearbox) offroad vehicles like Toyota Prado & Mitsubishi Pajero. If CBU Prados are going for Rs. 1 crore in India, then the GC also should have been expected to be in that space.

The Wrangler is NOT a competitor to the Thar - in most countries outside the US, it is an aspirational lifestyle vehicle, priced far higher than the Camry/Accord level, with the Unlimited hardtop versions only about 10-15% cheaper than equivalent Grand Cherokee. The Wrangler is preferred by people who will really go off-road while the GC is preferred by those who want a family SUV with occasional offroading (if at all).

I agree Jeep will have a tough time establishing any sort of brand name in India - 99.9% of the population will think the Wrangler is a 10-15 lakh Mahindra (just like Bonnevilles being mistaken for Bullets)!

Last edited by LTAutoMad : 4th September 2016 at 16:11.
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Old 4th September 2016, 16:36   #154
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Finally someone said words of wisdom on this thread!GC is no comparison to Q5,Q7, X3, X5. None of these cars mentioned can meet the off road capabilities of GC and when you want a car which gives you luxury on the road and off road capabilities for those weekend trips in Deserts or mountains you hardly have any choice. GC is a very good mix of these two and you can refer to several forums where it is being compared to other capable vehicles in the same category. Q&X are mere show pieces when it comes to off road capabilities. Someone compared the space of X3 with GC, I cannot comment on that but can vouch that it has much more space than Q5, my other reason for rejecting Q5 other than off road ability. Even from the street presence perspective, X3 & Q5 are smallish when compared full frontal with GC. I agree pricing is off the mark but this I reckon is due to tax structure. For someone comparing Wrangler with Thar, I have no words. it is like witnessing youngsters trying to race Hayabusas with their Pulsars on the street roads. I have been one such witness

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTAutoMad View Post
As a former 2-door Wrangler soft-top owner, I totally understand the pain & frustration of all those people who have been eagerly waiting for the Jeep launch in India. After migrating from India, that open Wrangler with its 4.0 litre Petrol engine was a dream vehicle for me too, once. The reality of living daily with a crude Jeep with its crappy Yank quality soured the dream - I loved it & hated it in equal measure (long story ), but it was a rite of passage for me too and a tick off the bucket list! I used to have a Bullet in the 80s - so am a glutton for punishment!

Last edited by ampere : 4th September 2016 at 16:43. Reason: Reduced quoted post
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Old 4th September 2016, 17:00   #155
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Originally Posted by oxymoron View Post
For someone comparing Wrangler with Thar, I have no words. it is like witnessing youngsters trying to race Hayabusas with their Pulsars on the street roads. I have been one such witness
Basically the Wrangler is for the "Uncommon Man" in India whereas it is for the "Regular Joe" in America or Australia or elsewhere with an outdoorsy culture.

For the Indian "Common Man" there are only the Thars and Gypsys that are affordable and relatively easy to buy.

Of course, in ref off roading hard core, it is a moot point whether ANY but ANY of the Wranglers that might get sold in India, will ever get taken off road to get down and dirty.

My guess is that not many people will take an 86 Lac Rupee Car and bash it about amongst rocks and sand and mud and slush and swamps and try things like water wading etc.

At best, Im guessing that these will end up as Hauz Khas or Colaba or Sadashiv Nagar "Tractors" a la the Land Rover Defender which became for the most part, a "Chelsea Tractor"...

If at all anyone takes these vehicles off the road, it will be the "Jeep India Testing Team" and various Auto Magazines at the max.

But irrespective of all this, as mentioned earlier in this thread, out of pure academic interest and curiosity, I would dearly love to see details of a shoot out amongst the Wrangler, the Thar and the Gypsy in identical conditions, in identical terrain and with similarly capable drivers at the respective wheels. And I would love to see the results of the same published in detail with some glorious colour photographs!
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Old 4th September 2016, 17:56   #156
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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
I wonder what their India FCA Team are Smokin' these days.....]
They must be smoking acetylene for announcing such atrocious prices. They have safely assumed our power class looking for some snob value will buy it for exclusivity.

Stillborn children by Fiat India.

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Old 4th September 2016, 21:48   #157
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Originally Posted by nsbhagwat View Post
They must be smoking acetylene for announcing such atrocious prices. They have safely assumed our power class looking for some snob value will buy it for exclusivity.

Stillborn children by Fiat India.
Going by this article it looks like they just want a presence in India and are not really concerned about sales at this point. They seem to have made a decent profit of $539.4 million this Q1, and this excludes profits from Ferrari which jumped 19% this first quarter. It looks like they are concentrating on USA, Latin America and Europe which is their cash cow, and ignoring Asia for now (Asia-Pacific reporting earnings of 12 million euros ($13.5 million), down from 65 million euros in 2015)

"The automaker attributed the 451-million euro ($508.9 million) increase compared with a year ago to a 15 percent increase in global Jeep sales, recovering business in Europe and continuing strong performance in North America."

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bus...ofit/83533530/
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Old 5th September 2016, 06:26   #158
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Default Re: Driven: Jeep Grand Cherokee

Great review Akshay!

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Originally Posted by Akshay1234 View Post
The centre console trim would not be out of place in a 7 lakh hatchback, and the plastic surrounding the gear lever and the cupholders was even worse. Compare that to the wood BMW has or the plastics Mercedes use in the same locations and you will be thoroughly disappointed.
Sorry, but can you really compare a Jeep with 3 Germans? A Toyota, VW or Ford would've been better choices.

If I were to buy a Jeep ever, it would only be the Wrangler.
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Old 5th September 2016, 10:17   #159
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Default Re: Driven: Jeep Grand Cherokee

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Originally Posted by LTAutoMad View Post
But, on a contradictory note to most of the posts above, let me congratulate the Govt of India for sticking to their guns & maintaining the 100%+ duty on CBU products. The results speak for themselves - we have millions of vehicles being produced in India. If you want to sell in numbers in India, only option is to manufacture locally, or at least assemble CKD kits. For e.g. Fortuner & Endeavour

I think a lot of people (even car-savvy ones) were unrealistic in their price estimates (or rather, hopes!) of Jeeps in India. All over the world, the Grand Cherokee competes directly with "proper" 4x4 (low-range gearbox) offroad vehicles like Toyota Prado & Mitsubishi Pajero. If CBU Prados are going for Rs. 1 crore in India, then the GC also should have been expected to be in that space.
Your point is valid, about CBU taxes being high and encouraging local production. I am certain most of us, while we wish for no import duty, understand why there is import duty. But its not 100%, it is now around 185%. In my opinion there is a difference between trying to protect local industries, and just milking consumers. The government, with 185% import duty is only milking consumers at this price, and making hay while the sun shines. Had the tax remained at a 100% I am certain that would have still been enough to keep the local manufacturing going, and keep CBU prices at an acceptable level. But that is a discussion for another thread

I think Jeep has done just what you said. Compared to the Prado, and priced the GC. Only thing is, the Prado doesn't sell. Toyota is another company which gives us ridiculous CBU pricing. When brands like Mercedes and Audi are giving us 'fair' CBU pricing (compare the prices of vehicles in India, to those in the US and UK), I simply cannot understand what is wrong with Toyota and Jeep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxymoron View Post
Finally someone said words of wisdom on this thread!GC is no comparison to Q5,Q7, X3, X5. None of these cars mentioned can meet the off road capabilities of GC and when you want a car which gives you luxury on the road and off road capabilities for those weekend trips in Deserts or mountains you hardly have any choice. GC is a very good mix of these two and you can refer to several forums where it is being compared to other capable vehicles in the same category. Q&X are mere show pieces when it comes to off road capabilities. Someone compared the space of X3 with GC, I cannot comment on that but can vouch that it has much more space than Q5, my other reason for rejecting Q5 other than off road ability. Even from the street presence perspective, X3 & Q5 are smallish when compared full frontal with GC. I agree pricing is off the mark but this I reckon is due to tax structure. For someone comparing Wrangler with Thar, I have no words. it is like witnessing youngsters trying to race Hayabusas with their Pulsars on the street roads. I have been one such witness
Well there has to be a comparison, considering the GC has been priced higher than all of them. It was expected to the priced somewhere between them, hence the comparisons, but Jeep seems to have had the same thought process as you

I wonder how many times the off road capability of the GC will be used, forget India even in its home market most of the owners spend most of their time on the road. So off road capabilities cannot justifying its short comings in terms of price, and build quality, etc. Definitely not when it is priced almost double of some of the above vehicles.

I did compare the space with an X3. The X5, ML, GL and Q7 have much more space inside. Would suggest you check them out and see for yourself. The Q5 is the smallest of the lot here in terms of space.

Pricing is off the mark because of the boffins at Jeep. Take a GLE450 AMG which is now 91l ex showroom. It costs about $78k. The GC Summit with similar specs as India costs about $60k usd. How is it that the GC Summit in India is 12 lacs more than GLE450 AMG, when the GLE is about $20k more in the US?

Quote:
Originally Posted by viren83 View Post
Great review Akshay!

Sorry, but can you really compare a Jeep with 3 Germans? A Toyota, VW or Ford would've been better choices.

If I were to buy a Jeep ever, it would only be the Wrangler.
Hope you understand my reason for comparing them in my previous reply.
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Old 5th September 2016, 11:11   #160
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Originally Posted by Akshay1234 View Post
Well there has to be a comparison, considering the GC has been priced higher than all of them. It was expected to the priced somewhere between them, hence the comparisons, but Jeep seems to have had the same thought process as you

I wonder how many times the off road capability of the GC will be used, forget India even in its home market most of the owners spend most of their time on the road. So off road capabilities cannot justifying its short comings in terms of price, and build quality, etc. Definitely not when it is priced almost double of some of the above vehicles.

I did compare the space with an X3. The X5, ML, GL and Q7 have much more space inside. Would suggest you check them out and see for yourself. The Q5 is the smallest of the lot here in terms of space.

Pricing is off the mark because of the boffins at Jeep. Take a GLE450 AMG which is now 91l ex showroom. It costs about $78k. The GC Summit with similar specs as India costs about $60k usd. How is it that the GC Summit in India is 12 lacs more than GLE450 AMG, when the GLE is about $20k more in the US?


I agree with you and precisely the reason that I did not mention any ML, GL, Q7 but X3 & Q5 for size. It is no deal breaker though but price is. I cannot really comment about US as a market for GC but in Middle East people do use GC for off roading and it is quite capable i must say. If people dont use as per the intended design/ ability/ purpose of the car than it is their shortcoming, company cannot be blamed for providing such product and for this only reason i said that Q&X are no match to GC . Pricing is off the mark and there are no two opinion to it but it is also contributed by the tax structure.

Last edited by Akshay1234 : 5th September 2016 at 11:24. Reason: keeping partial text of quoted post
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Old 5th September 2016, 11:45   #161
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Nice review even if I do not agree with the cribs about pricing (even if I agree with the likely outcome - viz the Jeeps sales will approximate to zero). We seem to have forgotten what the duty structure on CBU Jeeps is:

Customs Duty: 100%
CVD: 30%
Infra Cess: 5%
State VAT: 12.5%

In short, the ex showroom price would be 307% of CIF value. (Before dealer margins)

So RS. 1.03 CR ex showroom would be RS. 33 lakhs CIF or USD 50k - very much in line with US pricing (assuming dealer margins are offset by freight).

Mercedes et al sell cars on a CKD basis which is possible given that they sell 5000-10000 cars per year. Not possible for Jeep.
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Old 5th September 2016, 14:19   #162
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Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
Basically the Wrangler is for the "Uncommon Man" in India whereas it is for the "Regular Joe" in America or Australia or elsewhere with an outdoorsy culture.

For the Indian "Common Man" there are only the Thars and Gypsys that are affordable and relatively easy to buy.

Of course, in ref off roading hard core, it is a moot point whether ANY but ANY of the Wranglers that might get sold in India, will ever get taken off road to get down and dirty.

My guess is that not many people will take an 86 Lac Rupee Car and bash it about amongst rocks and sand and mud and slush and swamps and try things like water wading etc.

At best, Im guessing that these will end up as Hauz Khas or Colaba or Sadashiv Nagar "Tractors" a la the Land Rover Defender which became for the most part, a "Chelsea Tractor"...

If at all anyone takes these vehicles off the road, it will be the "Jeep India Testing Team" and various Auto Magazines at the max.

But irrespective of all this, as mentioned earlier in this thread, out of pure academic interest and curiosity, I would dearly love to see details of a shoot out amongst the Wrangler, the Thar and the Gypsy in identical conditions, in identical terrain and with similarly capable drivers at the respective wheels. And I would love to see the results of the same published in detail with some glorious colour photographs!
I do not agree with your regular Joe comment, yes it may not be as expensive as it is in India but, for example in Middle East market, It is expensive enough for you to have several other options across different categories of car. So if someone is putting money for Wrangler, he is definitely going to use it for off roading which is a serious investment. A regular Joe in this market can buy a lot of other options at a much cheaper price or a family SUV at almost the same price like a fully loaded Mitsubishi Pajero, a lot of other SUVs middle or basic variants with no low gearing. People buy Wrangler when they have off roading on their mind else there are several much more comfortable family options in SUVs and sedans alike.
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Old 5th September 2016, 14:26   #163
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Default Re: Driven: Jeep Grand Cherokee

Thank you for the review Akshay and Ajit!

Enough has been said upon pricing, so I won't add anything into it. Jeep has sealed its fate by itself. The day Maruti makes a switch from our national engine, FCA will start counting on its day of departure from India. Being said that, I expect Jeep to manage selling these cars in low teen numbers at least, surely we have these many posers around who will pick these cars up for that *exclusivity factor*.

RIP Jeep in India. My condolences too!
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Old 6th September 2016, 12:32   #164
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What most of us, who are commenting on the astronomical prices do not realise is that the US prices being bandied about are the RETAIL prices and not the "Whole Sale" prices that are given to dealers. The prices for automobiles imported from abroad are always at the transfer prices, which exclude the dealer preparation and warranty costs. So in effect a $45,000/ price as seen on the Jeep site in US would most probably be imported in the range of $25-30K, This is the discount at which others import their vehicles.

Once you accept the Real Import prices, then you realise that the ex-showroom prices which should have been in the range of 30L for Wrangler have been bloated to 80L. And that is what all of us are objecting to. FCI seems to be either in a fools paradise (thinking that their products will command premium over Range Rover, Mercedes GL etc) or they are simply not interested in selling premium automobiles in India. Either way it is a convoluted method of conducting business.
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Old 6th September 2016, 18:54   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
India gets three variants - Limited, Summit and SRT. In the US, these are priced as below-

Limited - $ 37,565/-
Summit- $ 49,795/-
SRT- $ 65,695/-
Well if I import one from US and pay import duty (I believe 100% for cars less then USD 40k) below would be the calculation at 70 exchange rate (USDINR)-

i.e. 37,565*2*70=INR52,59,100. OTR with 18% registration = INR 62,05,738 + Insurance.

Now question is why would I buy from FIAT and pay 32 lakhs for transportation. Let me guess for Right Hand Drive

If the car starts selling in decent numbers I have a business Idea. I will sell them cheaper then FIAT through IMPORT.

Last edited by Passiautonate : 6th September 2016 at 18:57.
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