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Old 12th September 2016, 18:04   #61
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Default Re: Driven: Audi A4

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Originally Posted by anshumandun View Post
You are right if Audi has used the DQ200 version of the DSG with this 1.4 TFSI engine.

DQ200 has a torque limit of 250 Nm and DQ250 has a torque limit of 400 Nm (the one used with 2.0 TDI engines like in Q3 with 380 Nm torque).

Do we know which one has been used with the A4 1.4 TFSI? If it's the DQ200, it will be running at its maximum torque load and that is not good for the gearbox that is already infamous for its reliability. I hope Audi has used DQ250.
Well, they have mated the DQ200 with the 1.8L TSI of the new Skoda Superb and have limited that engine's torque to 250NM - just so that it can work with THIS particular DSG box. They could have retained the torque figure of 320NM (which is the max torque of the same 1.8TSI engine on the MT gearbox) and have gone with the DQ250, but they haven't.

So the fact that this A4's max torque is limited to 250NM makes me very suspicious of the possibility that they have done a deja-vu.

As for the Q3 2.0 that you mention, that's a diesel and it's torque is well over the 250NM limit of the DQ200. It's an engine + gearbox combination that people buy for the torque itself. So there they haven't compromised, it seems, and have gone for the DQ250.

I suspect that this was the reason that there were so many failures of the gearbox in the Superb, and none in the Polo GT TSI. Because that gearbox was exposed frequently to it's maximum operational torque threshold in the Superb. I wish there was an NTSB investigation into this and an episode on YouTube.

Hence, I would prefer to retain my opinion due to the aforementioned symmetry, until official word is out on the model number of the gearbox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avinash_clt View Post
The particular 7-speed DSG in the new Audi A4 1.4TFSI should be similar to the 7-speed DSG in the erstwhile S4/S5 (ratios / clutch pack ratings etc may be different). My guess therefore is that this is the DL501 DSG or S-tronic as Audi would like to call it. And all the DSG woes have been primarily with only the DQ200. There shoudln't be any '7-speed' worries in this car
Out of curiosity, I went to auto-data to try to figure this out and you may be right.

Check out this page: http://www.auto-data.net/en/?f=showCar&car_id=22291

Let's hope that they haven't changed this configuration for the kits of cars to be delivered here.

If this is the case, it may make more sense for buyers to consider the new A4 1.4 TSI DSG over the new Superb's 1.8 TSI DSG, to just have that peace of mind.
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Old 12th September 2016, 20:34   #62
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Default Re: Driven: Audi A4

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Originally Posted by AbhisheKulkarni View Post
Out of curiosity, I went to auto-data to try to figure this out and you may be right.

Check out this page: http://www.auto-data.net/en/?f=showCar&car_id=22291

Let's hope that they haven't changed this configuration for the kits of cars to be delivered here.

If this is the case, it may make more sense for buyers to consider the new A4 1.4 TSI DSG over the new Superb's 1.8 TSI DSG, to just have that peace of mind.
Quite simply, the Audi A4 has a longitudinal engine layout with front/all wheel drive layout. The DQ200 (the only dry-clutch DSG) in the Superb or any other VAG car that uses it are all transverse engine plus front wheel drive only and thus cannot be fitted onto the VAG cars that utilize the MLB platform. Hence it is not a case of allocating any market specific kits. Among the DSGs that serve in transverse engine VW/Skoda/Audi/Seat cars, if one needs needs AWD also, say as in the Superb 4x4 or Q3 quattro, they are paired with either the 6-speed wet clutch DQ250 or 7-speed DQ500 only, irrespective of whether the car is petrol or diesel. Both of them also utilize wet multi-plate clutch packs unlike the problematic DQ200.

As I understand there has been only one generation of DSG intended for longitudinal application and that is DL501 alone(another wet multi-plate clutch pack). So unless Audi has come up with a newer generation of longitudinal DSGs, this 1.4TSI A4 should also be using the same. The curious part is previously all the applications of DL501 with quattro/AWD Audis, while the car in question is FWD.

I don't think someone would consider between A4 & Superb based on DSG reliability alone. As rightly pointed out earlier, it would be based on priority of factors like badge value, rear seat space, creature comforts, cabin richness, on-road performance and of course affordability. Personally this Audi won't be in my books irrespective of the price, but I do accept the fact it serves the needs of a vast majority of its potential buyers.
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Old 13th September 2016, 05:31   #63
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Default Re: Driven: Audi A4

What has the world come to. A Punto Abart has more BHP/tonne than this brand new A4. I cannot fathom what Audi India execs were thinking when putting a 1.4 lt engine in this thing.
Though i must say here in the USA, this A4 with the 2 lt 252bhp engine and quattro system is a fantastic, fast and luxurious car.
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Old 13th September 2016, 08:52   #64
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Default Driven: Audi A4

I know I have commented on this before but moderate power Petrols and Diesels are normal in this category. Look at the 3 series range in the UK, which starts with a 116 HP 316d and 134 HP 318i.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...tudio-pictures

Get used to this.

Last edited by Hayek : 13th September 2016 at 08:54.
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Old 13th September 2016, 12:36   #65
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Default Re: Driven: Audi A4

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
I know I have commented on this before but moderate power Petrols and Diesels are normal in this category. Look at the 3 series range in the UK, which starts with a 116 HP 316d and 134 HP 318i.
It is indeed very normal, and those models act as an entry point to the brand. But in the case of A4 in India, this is the only option and that too when models sitting below from the same family have better/powerful options (e.g.;A3, Octavia)
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Old 13th September 2016, 13:15   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
It is indeed very normal, and those models act as an entry point to the brand. But in the case of A4 in India, this is the only option and that too when models sitting below from the same family have better/powerful options (e.g.;A3, Octavia)

I don't think too many people cross shop the Octavia and the A4. Yes this is the entry level A4- but this is just the first product of this range being sold in India - they will surely launch a 2 litre Diesel at some point and perhaps even the 2 litre Petrol. Also this produces 150 bhp and 250 Nm - not that much less than my previous generation Superb which is certainly powerful enough for most people.
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Old 13th September 2016, 14:12   #67
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Default Re: Driven: Audi A4

What is more disappointing than the 1.4L engine is how Audi are badging this car to give the impression that its a 3L engine. I'm not sure if this new "Dynamic Badging" thing is a marketing ploy or geeky engineering jargon. One thing I'm guessing is that sales staff might be instructed not to voluntarily reveal the engine size
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Old 13th September 2016, 14:29   #68
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Default Re: Driven: Audi A4

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Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
It is indeed very normal, and those models act as an entry point to the brand. But in the case of A4 in India, this is the only option and that too when models sitting below from the same family have better/powerful options (e.g.;A3, Octavia)
+ 1.

In the UK, for e.g., the entry level models of these cars, start at much more competitive prices than they do in India. So, unless a smaller engine is used to lower the entry point of the brand, why will junta accept a lower spec engine?

I personally am game for a de-specced entry level model with smaller engines. But, it's a different argument when we get offered a smaller and lower powered engine, at the SAME OR HIGHER price as the competition!

But, I've said it before and will say it again - it will be the 2.0 TDI that will either make or break this car. Having said that, Audi just handicapped itself by taking out petrol option (or ensuring that it doesn't sell in as great a number as was possible)

Last edited by Gannu_1 : 14th September 2016 at 07:07. Reason: Typo.
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Old 14th September 2016, 02:09   #69
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Default Re: Driven: Audi A4

Is this the same 1.4L TSI engine from the VW stable that comes with the VW Golf and on the Polo/Vento Cup cars in India ?

Then this engine is available in a 180 PS state of tune, that is the least they could have done!!
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Old 14th September 2016, 03:20   #70
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Default Re: Driven: Audi A4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
I know I have commented on this before but moderate power Petrols and Diesels are normal in this category. Look at the 3 series range in the UK, which starts with a 116 HP 316d and 134 HP 318i.
I was unaware of the lower spec engines among the german trio till I came to the Netherlands two years ago. Here in NL, I could see many thrifty variants of german made cars (in both entry and mid level models), with their Indian variants on average having a higher output engine and almost always with more options ticked as standard. The Dutch in general are quite keen on fuel efficient cars, which I presume are for reasons of having completely flat geography, max speed limits, relatively higher fuel costs and taxes. I saw many Passats/Superbs running 1.6TDI engines or the BMW 114i/114d, 316i/316d etc, with an almost no frill equipment list. But the requirements / expectations of the buyers are different here, compared to the average customer in India and this is where the proposition becomes tricky.

There are oddballs here too, the other day I came across a used E90 335d (perhaps among the most explosive of diesel sedans and definitely the most explosive of its time), but it was shocking to see the manual AC with old school rotory controls in it. I am pretty sure irrespective of the engine, a 3-series specced like that will simply boo away potential customers, had it been offered in India.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vb-san View Post
It is indeed very normal, and those models act as an entry point to the brand. But in the case of A4 in India, this is the only option and that too when models sitting below from the same family have better/powerful options (e.g.;A3, Octavia)
I think Audi would introduce higher output petrol/diesel engines soon in the A4 range. It indeed doesn't make sense when Octavias/Superbs are fast in their standard trims itself. Unlike the case where Merc had those A180 CDI, the A4 isn't the cheaper entry level variant for Audi. Their own A3 has a 1.8TSI engine good for 180hp. I would imagine Superb / A3 also being soon offered with the 1.4 TSI engine going forward.


Some other observations:
  • In Europe, there are more reasons for these downsized lower output engines in these cars and that has to do primarily with taxation based on CO2 emissions.
  • Apart from the road tax rates, some of the tax components that make up the equivalent of ex-showroom price / list price of a particular model are also linked to the CO2 emissions, which is not the case in India.
  • If I am not mistaken some countries also have insurance slabs linked to how efficient a particular car is, with energy labels etc.
  • In some EU countries, when the cars are bought as part of a lease plan, there would be a part of your salary component that will not be taxed. But these are almost always limited to the more efficient versions of a particular model than the actual cost of the particular vehicle. (For example a Golf GTI may not come under the tax exempt lease plan, but a fully specced A4 1.4 TSI will)
  • India doesn't yet have any of the above taxation components that will affect total cost of ownership of the vehicle. I believe it wouldn't cost significantly more for Audi to have the 2.0TSI instead of the 1.4TSI (in fact the percentage increase in price should be lesser in India compared to EU markets).
  • Ajmat had mentioned in his Kodiaq preview thread that going forward VAG will have only 1.4TSI / 2.0 TSI four cylinder engines, and the 1.8TSI to be discontinued. In its transverse application, there are now 1.4TSI engines with cylinder deactivation tech. The Q3 imported to India had this (Rumour: Audi to launch A4 1.4L TFSI. EDIT: Q3 too), and thus it won't be surprising to see the engine trickling down to the Superb and A3 also.
  • Individual owners may be put off by lower displacement engine, but then it has the '30TFSI' badge, and many times the badge matters than whats under the hood.
  • Corporate purchases are unlikely to be affected by smaller motor. Audi is indeed testing waters and I am pretty sure MB/BMW are watching keenly, figuring out which of their petrol models would be worth localizing.
  • 320i is a CBU, is the A4 1.4TFSI also a CBU?
  • My prediction: Apart from enthusiasts, a large number of potential buyers of the car won't feel shortchanged by the smaller motor. And those enthusiast specific models like A4 3.2FSI/3.0TDI, A6 3.0TFSI, Superb 3.6 FSI, 328i, etc never made into their successive generations / facelifts and also had very few takers while they were on sale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jalsa777 View Post
Is this the same 1.4L TSI engine from the VW stable that comes with the VW Golf and on the Polo/Vento Cup cars in India ?

Then this engine is available in a 180 PS state of tune, that is the least they could have done!!
I think the 180PS twin-charger 1.4TSI engine would be the older EA111 series, while this one in the A4 would be from the newer EA211 series

Last edited by avinash_clt : 14th September 2016 at 03:24. Reason: Avoiding back to back posts and grammar
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Old 14th September 2016, 06:27   #71
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There was an ad day before yesterday, the full front page of times of India , and nowhere has the engine or the fuel economy benefit been mentioned.
Guess they want to stay as far from referring to the engine, as possible.
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Old 15th September 2016, 08:42   #72
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Default Re: Driven: Audi A4

The simple fact of the matter is that Audi India is responding to basic Indian buyer psychology.

Their marketing team clearly understands that the buyer avatar for this segment isn't in it for the driving thrill. Rather, they are in it for the badge value and social elevation amongst their friends & family.

That is why it's loaded with cool gizmos and things you could flaunt to your buddies. The strategy is pretty clear. Save up the production cost by providing it with an average engine, load it up with cool gizmos to fill up that gap and then price it pretty aggressively so that it appears like an amazing deal in comparison to the competition.

It won't be a big surprise if they discount this pretty aggressively in the near future as well. All in all, if you look at it from a marketing stand point, what they did is pretty darn smart.

To us enthusiasts this move sounds aggravating, however, the average Indian consumer will happily buy this car just because to him/her this is more of a social currency (A way to show the world that he/she has moved up in life) and won't care too much about how fast it goes from 0-100 or how well it corners.

Case in point - I often have people asking me about the features of my 3 series, but I rarely have someone ask me about the engine or how much horse power it produces. In fact, I often have people telling me that I should have bought an Audi or a Mercedes just because they appear more luxurious (Some of these folks own an Audi or a Merc).

Usually in response to such comments, I take them for a spin and show them what the car is capable of and in more than a few instances I get the person saying - Oh sure, I can see it goes fast but it's not like you are going to race this thing to an office. In our city conditions, this car is impractical.

In conclusion, an Indian buyer would compromise on performance specs if it does enough to impress his/her peers.

Last edited by rahul_jo : 15th September 2016 at 08:52.
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Old 15th September 2016, 18:48   #73
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So isn't this what Hyundai was doing right through in India ? Audi is the new Hyundai ? So does it actually makes sense to buy this car at 42 lakhs OTR assuming the rest will be discounted in around 6 months time ?
Can this engine with the current gearbox combo , be remapped to say 180 BHP ? If yes then it would probably be worth considering.
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Old 15th September 2016, 19:22   #74
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Default Re: Driven: Audi A4

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Originally Posted by Arjun Reddy View Post
So isn't this what Hyundai was doing right through in India ? Audi is the new Hyundai ? So does it actually makes sense to buy this car at 42 lakhs OTR assuming the rest will be discounted in around 6 months time ?
Can this engine with the current gearbox combo , be remapped to say 180 BHP ? If yes then it would probably be worth considering.
Good point with the Hyundai comparison. Incidentally I think remap can certainly be done by any competent tuner except for the torque limit of 250 Nm. THAT will certainly be an issue with this particular gearbox!
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Old 16th September 2016, 15:02   #75
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Default Re: Driven: Audi A4

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Good point with the Hyundai comparison. Incidentally I think remap can certainly be done by any competent tuner except for the torque limit of 250 Nm. THAT will certainly be an issue with this particular gearbox!
As I have pointed out earier in this thread, the gearbox in this A4 1.4TFSI cannot be the DQ200, don't let the 250Nm torque output and mention of 7-speed box confuse you. So there shouldn't be worries about the remap being bottle-necked by DSG torque limitations. However I am not sure how much more can be safely extracted from the 1.4TSI engine, it would be better to just wait for 1.8/2.0TSI engines (which I expect to be in the pipeline) or just look at another car if performance is to going to be a major buying decision.
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