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Old 8th June 2017, 16:14   #16
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Default Re: Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)

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Originally Posted by Turbanator View Post
I will be surprised if they are actually able to sell even these 300 in this or next year at these rates (I am excluding one they gave at concessional rates to Toyota Dealers) If you have some other views do share.
Turbanator (by the way I love your handle!) - I don't have any views. Time will tell what unfolds. All I know is that the Gurgaon dealer was allotted 12 units and has sold all twelve in the first 2 months. But these are early times. It will take a year for the situation to unfurl and be clear.


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Originally Posted by Dushyanth View Post
I personally feel that Lexus is not a VFM proposition.
The Europeans have better cars that will simply blow away Lexus.
Value like beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. What is value for money is unique to each individual and will change for the same person over time & age. On our forum Lexus seems to be the brand to kick. Good for them for no one kicks a dead dog.
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Old 8th June 2017, 16:25   #17
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Default Re: Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)

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Value like beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. What is value for money is unique to each individual and will change for the same person over time & age
I agree with you Sir, but can someone tell me how can they price LX @ 2 Crore Plus. This same very car but Petrol engine ( which I think Lexus plans to launch next year and even at Higher rates retails at 1,08,000 CAD? If we reduce dealer margin and Lexus Canada markups - why can't Lexus Japan ship this to Lexus India @ 1,00,000 CAD say 50 Lac INR and thereafter even we add 200 % duties all this adds up to 1,5 Cr. or is Lexus India so greedy that they need 30 -40 % margins on CBU cars?


http://www.lexus.ca/lexus/en/automobiles/lx
Attached Thumbnails
Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)-1.jpeg  


Last edited by Turbanator : 8th June 2017 at 16:28.
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Old 8th June 2017, 17:40   #18
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Default Re: Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)

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Originally Posted by PrideRed View Post
I think ES is a decent car, when I see BMW selling 330i for 55lacs, the decently kitted ES 300Hybrid ain't that bad. Of course it might not handle or perform like a BMW but probably wont breakdown/burn hole in your pocket as much a BMW.
Are you talking on road or ex showroom?

The pricing of the ES in terms of ex showroom is similar to the new E class which itself is slightly on top for that segment. Am I missing something?

And for that one would get this -
Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)-img_20170608_174727.jpg

Instead of this -
Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)-beigedash.jpg

Looks totally outclassed IMO.

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 8th June 2017 at 17:49.
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Old 8th June 2017, 17:48   #19
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Default Re: Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Are you talking on road or ex showroom?

The pricing of the ES in terms of ex showroom is similar to the new E class which itself is slightly on top for that segment. Am I missing something?
55lacs for 330i is on road and with Lexus costing 55.xx ex-showroom should cost 7-8 lacs more than Bimmer. Given that Lexus is CBU and Hybrid, pricing seems acceptable, atleast much better than LX/RX pricing.
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Old 8th June 2017, 19:09   #20
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Default Re: Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)

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Lexus costing 55.xx ex-showroom should cost 7-8 lacs more than Bimmer.
Here's costs for ES at Gurgaon and probably elsewhere except Delhi where it's less due to lower VAT at the moment for Hybrids.

Also for RX In case someone has any doubts on absurd pricing from Lexus.
Attached Thumbnails
Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)-screen-shot-20170608-7.07.44-pm.png  

Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)-screen-shot-20170608-7.10.54-pm.png  


Last edited by Turbanator : 8th June 2017 at 19:13.
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Old 9th June 2017, 09:54   #21
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Default Re: Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)

Aah the Japanse Mercedes is here. The cars quite frankly look like rebadged Innovas and Camrys from certain angles. I think the front grill design is not to my taste and something about it feels weird. It could have been designed better.
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Old 9th June 2017, 11:03   #22
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Default Re: Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)

I am quite the Toyota fan, but this has to be among the ghastliest looking range of luxury vehicles to be presented on our planet. OMG!

And those side mirror controls are straight out of my Innova!
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Old 9th June 2017, 11:29   #23
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Default Re: Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Toyota's pricing has many in the market perplexed.

And that pricing may be a part of their positioning. This may not be liked by many of us who would prefer a more realistic pricing.

Maybe they are trying to position themselves away from the German III! - may be a stretch given Indian luxury car buyers' affinity for the Germans.
Sorry, I humbly disagree. Premium positioning is not bought by just pricing a product above the competition. It is earned when a product justifies the premium price it commands above the competition!

Pricing a product a segment above its worth does not qualify for premium positioning, neither can it be justified because of the CBU prices. Volvo cars are CBU and have a look at their delicious pricing, which looks like a steal now considering Lexus!

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Value like beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.
Value and beauty gets compared based on the competition, and the pricing.

Taking the ES300H for example - the below pics were taken from the official review, cropped to highlight some of the points I found shocking, considering the 68L onroad price point.

Name:  Lexus.jpg
Views: 1572
Size:  437.7 KB

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
On our forum Lexus seems to be the brand to kick. Good for them for no one kicks a dead dog.
The above examples like exposed screw on the dashboard, utilitarian looking buttons all around, and even multiple dummy buttons across the cabin - these would have got kicking from team-bhp'ians if noticed on the 8L premium hatchback thread. An Elite i20 thread for example, would have been up in flames! Infact, I feel bad I thrashed the Honda Jazz on the opening page of the thread for a dummy button, an 8L car when the 68L Lexus has multiple of them!

None of which would have been scrutinized as much if they had brought in value to the table as compared to the competition. But when it's priced 2x the amount charged by others, they had to give it their best shot - and that's just not done when you launch a model that is already five years old in the international market!
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Old 9th June 2017, 12:24   #24
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Default Re: Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Anshuman and Gannu_1, thank you for your balanced report out on the Lexus three. Rated it a well deserved 5 stars.
Now ready your ES 300h ownership report so that we can rate it 5 stars .

Quote:
Lexus production for the world wide market (other than the U.S.) is concentrated in Japan. They set up the production facility in U.S.A. only due to the larger volumes there.
True. But considering that they have ready facilities here, they could bring them in as CKDs. Very little effort to do that (versus full production) and big, big tax savings. A small noob like Volvo has finalised plans for CKD; it's that easy.

Quote:
Again from what little I know they plan to allocate only 300 units to India in 2017 (I've mentioned this elsewhere too) and then a little more in 2018 to create that shortage factor
There's no 'shortage factor' about a Lexus; it is a mass market luxury brand that lives for volumes. In many years, they were the no.1 selling luxo-brand in the USA.

Statements like these are made by Toyota because they know that the sales numbers will be limited, at best. So, instead of saying 'our sales are minuscule' or 'our cars have flopped', they conveniently talk about exclusivity, limited supplies etc. Lexus knows they can't touch the market leader Mercedes with only 3 cars and this kind of pricing.

Quote:
Maybe they are trying to position themselves away from the German III! - may be a stretch given Indian luxury car buyers' affinity for the Germans.
True. But for customers who want to look beyond the big 3 Germans, Volvo & Jaguar offer more compelling propositions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrideRed View Post
I think ES is a decent car, when I see BMW selling 330i for 55lacs
Comparing the ES to a niche variant is comparing apples to oranges. Put it aside the similarly priced E220 / 520d / A6 etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dushyanth View Post
Let's put it this way, how many of us feel that the Likes or Fortuner and Innova crysta are not expensive considering their competition?
The Fortuner's pricing is comparable to the Endeavour. The Innova Crysta is super expensive, but remember - prices went up with the car's reputation and after it proved itself on Indian roads. Toyota knew the maximum that the customer was willing to pay for the Innova's unbeatable reputation.

Quote:
Toyota don't do a Nexa with Lexus
No chance. Based on forum reports, they treat Liva & Etios owners so well that a Lexus owner would probably be worshipped in a showroom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Value like beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. What is value for money is unique to each individual and will change for the same person over time & age.
Undoubtedly. But we're speaking of value-for-money not from one man's point of view; rather, how the market overall perceives the value in Lexus cars and the general consensus is they are grossly overpriced.

Quote:
On our forum Lexus seems to be the brand to kick.
If you see my earlier posts, I'm actually a big fan of Lexus, thanks to the comfort, reliability & ownership experience it offers. However, their current line-up is just too old (ES feels outdated, as does the LX) and overpriced.
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Old 9th June 2017, 13:07   #25
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Default Re: Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Are you talking on road or ex showroom?

The pricing of the ES in terms of ex showroom is similar to the new E class which itself is slightly on top for that segment. Am I missing something?

And for that one would get this -
Attachment 1646681

Instead of this -
Attachment 1646680

Looks totally outclassed IMO.
I dunno what it is about the Lexus ES interior but I like it more than the E class. The E class was royal and luxury but I wasn't a fan of the flowing design.

Personal choice but the Lexus ES dash design looks a bit industrial and function over form which I prefer.
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Old 9th June 2017, 13:13   #26
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Default Re: Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Taking the ES300H for example - the below pics were taken from the official review, cropped to highlight some of the points I found shocking, considering the 68L onroad price point.

I just noticed this from your post; surprising to see the light control stalk having a European orientation and being positioned on the right hand side. It's understandable in European cars as they move LHD systems to the right to make them RHD. But isn't Japan RHD like India? Honda is and their stalks are orientated on the right hand side which is perfect for RHD. Not so sure about Toyota.
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Old 9th June 2017, 13:20   #27
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Default Re: Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Value like beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. What is value for money is unique to each individual and will change for the same person over time & age. On our forum Lexus seems to be the brand to kick. Good for them for no one kicks a dead dog.
I agree with what you say. After all, most of us end up paying 2-3 Lakhs more for a Jetta while a well equipped Elantra is priced much lower than it.

However, I think the price being paid for this brand is too high to justify the value possessed by it. Even if you don't compare it to the competition, all Lexus cars are priced high for what they demand.

No one here is kicking Lexus. I personally love the way they look and also like the interiors. Club these factors to the fact that it's going to be like a Toyota when it comes to service, and the car is an excellent product barring the price of course.

Team BHP is the first one to speak up against Lexus, but I am damn sure that we will be the first ones to praise it when Lexus takes the CKD route.

Congrats on your car. Do give us an ownership report.

Last edited by vishy76 : 9th June 2017 at 13:26.
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Old 9th June 2017, 13:43   #28
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Default Re: Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)

I think the high price just for the Lexus badge with 'T' reliability is totally not justified. I feel that Toyota should've bought the Lexus through the CKD route instead of the CBU route in order to keep the prices in check. For that money, I would rather settle with these Germans or buy myself a Volvo which also happens to be coming to India through the CBU route and this Swedish manufacturer has priced it lower than that of the locally assembled Germans. Secondly Volvo has done something contrary to what Jeep and Lexus have done in terms of pricing.

The million dollar question here is that these cars which are a mere facelifted variants with a change of badge of what we have in India are really worth paying such a premium over its competition? Definitely not if I had to buy one at this price point. Lexus has definitely got the pricing wrong for the Indian market. If the Indian consumers will accept these cars over its competition is what is remained to be seen.

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Old 9th June 2017, 16:37   #29
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Default Re: Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)

Probably read the word 'Camry' 10 times in the review I guess. This in my opinion sums up the Lexus ES.

Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Volvo would be laughing hard right now. I remember I had commented on this car being a glorified Camry (and recieved a lot of flak for the same) but this review proves my views.

The sad part? Even Camry gets rear reclining seats. Hahaha.

Nothing against Toyota or Lexus. But this is ridiculous. Exposed nuts to dummy switches to a goddamn CVT in cars which cost almost 2 times the competition. A competition which is better both visually and mechanically.

And reliability and peace of mind? Highly overrated. Wonder where the peace of mind will go in case Lexus decides to shut shop due to lack of sales like Chevrolet.

Cars like E-Class and 5 series were born to be a luxury car. Lexus is a car which has been shaped to be a luxury car. Don't know if you get what I'm saying but if you do you'll understand my rant.

Last edited by The Brutailer : 9th June 2017 at 16:41.
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Old 10th June 2017, 17:27   #30
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Default Re: Driven: The Lexus Range (ES 300h, RX 450h & LX 450d)

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Originally Posted by The Brutailer View Post
Wonder where the peace of mind will go in case Lexus decides to shut shop due to lack of sales like Chevrolet.
Let's not jump the gun. Let's keep it real. Toyota has a history of taking extremely good care of its customers. It's also in a strong position locally, and there's no chance of the parent company leaving India.
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