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Old 24th April 2007, 01:36   #136
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Originally Posted by merve_extreme View Post
The palio does have a solid body which is rattle free,all european cars are built like this.
Euro NCAP ratings consider more than body rigidity when the declare their scores and applies only to cars sold in Europe if that helps.
Ok so much for that explanation about European cars. Now let me tell you something, even in the European press EUROPEAN companies like Alfa Romeo, Renault, Peugeot etc. are chided for their build quality frequently compared to the Germans. Fiat was known to be notoriously bad for badly built cars with poor reliability.

Why do you think Fiat was on the brink of Bankrruptcy a couple of years back? There is a very good reason for it. They produced bad cars, current products like the Grande Punto & Panda are WAY better but please do not tell us that everything manufactured by Fiat is gospel. We are not blind.

If you think that every European car is built like a 124/126/140 Merc then boy you gotta open your eyes & look at some of the cars produced by the so-called European car makers. Look at the 2CV, Renault 5, Last-gen Fiat Panda, Fiat Cinquecento etc. It might just be an eye-opener for you.

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Originally Posted by merve_extreme View Post
It dosent matter if it is built for Asia or Antartica,ceratin companies build cars in certain ways and that remains true for all their cars.A car built by a European manufacturer is a European type car.
You really, really need to widen your horizon and see the truth rather than believeing such statements. Going by the same statement Trabant, Lada should be as well built as Merc, BMW or Audi but if you know reality you might realize that it is a different world altogether out there.
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Old 24th April 2007, 01:56   #137
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Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
Robin putting up a few pics of a baleno crash .. The car at over 150km/hr lost control and went into what was a dried up lake about 10 feet deep from the road , toppled over 9 times before coming to a halt upside down on the way hitting bolders and a light pole .. The car also uprooted 3 milestones .. I for one couldn't believe the nature of impact .. But to my surprise , the car crumpled beautifully and here is the result :



And this is the guy who was driving the car .. I hope by now you recognize the driver and the car ..


Both memo and jay came out of this scratchless .. Have seen much worse cases at accidents half the speed or in cars perceived to be better built ..
wooo man thats a bad crash sorry for the car

but man drive safely you live once

and ya the car crumpled beautifully
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Old 24th April 2007, 02:18   #138
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Wow! Pathologically degenerated thread this is

I'll limit my thoughts to Palio 1.1 though I really hate to see this ridiculous argument of "heavy metal does not add to safety". Someone said it long back on this forum and many seem to have blindly accepted it. For two given vehicles of similar design, additional metal does add to safety. Just by putting 2 thin steel rods as side impact beams wouldn't make the car safe. No wonder, many Japaneses cars are becoming heavier these days. (Even in Indian context, Swift is much heavier than esteem and SX4 will be heavier than Baleno). Coming to crashes, I have known at least 3 cases first hand, where strong cab of Indica (not talking of Palio) was life saver.

Coming back to Palio 1.1. I have no special affection to this car and would not buy it if I am in market, but few points to mention any way.

Palio 1.1 is supposed to be FE car for "aam Janta" and not enthusiast. So, if delivers on FE mileage equal to or better than Santro/Wagon-R/Indica (Petrol), that is good enough. Forum like T-BHP normally doesn't like such cars, but they somehow end up doing better than expected in market.

It is supposed to be age old design. Well, Santro/Wagon-R/Indica are cars of same vintage, so why crib about Palio? Swift may be new design, but it doesn't compete against 1.1. Palio 1.1 just got cheaper and more FE than Palio 1.2, so it still gives more value to user.

It looks better than its competition (Santro/Wagon-R/estillo), has similar FE, more spacious (barring Indica), feels and ride better than competition. Legacy of poor *** will carry on even for Grade Punto, so that cant go against 1.1.

Overall, I wouldn't call it as junk as some other respected members prefer to call it.
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Old 24th April 2007, 06:23   #139
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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
Palio 1.1 is supposed to be FE car for "aam Janta" and not enthusiast. So, if delivers on FE mileage equal to or better than Santro/Wagon-R/Indica (Petrol), that is good enough. Forum like T-BHP normally doesn't like such cars, but they somehow end up doing better than expected in market.
Exactly..if FIAT had launched Palio with 1.1 & 1.6 engine in 2001, it would have served purpose...Volume sales thru 1.1 due to FE & performance thru 1.6.

But FIAT was wrong in assessing Indian mind set..all we needed is/was "how many km per litre?".

So now FIAT is giving that option...why crib now? Let aam junta buy 1.1 who dont mind pick up...& let Team-Bhp guys buy 1.6.

But one thing even after 5 yrs of launch Palio still turns head..No one will have doubt about that...right?
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Old 24th April 2007, 08:31   #140
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Both Baleno and Palio are great cars in their own way. One goes like a rocket while the other has this solid planted feel. Each has been built with different design principles in mind. Baleno was a Japanese car built for european markets and Palio is a european car built for developing markets.

And I don't intend to test the crash worthiness of either cars any time soon ..So no point talking about it.
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Old 24th April 2007, 09:48   #141
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Give us proof. Or stop mouthing off.
I've a photo. Will upload the same and then send a link.
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Old 24th April 2007, 10:50   #142
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Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
Coming back to Palio 1.1. I have no special affection to this car and would not buy it if I am in market, but few points to mention any way.

Palio 1.1 is supposed to be FE car for "aam Janta" and not enthusiast. So, if delivers on FE mileage equal to or better than Santro/Wagon-R/Indica (Petrol), that is good enough. Forum like T-BHP normally doesn't like such cars, but they somehow end up doing better than expected in market.

It is supposed to be age old design. Well, Santro/Wagon-R/Indica are cars of same vintage, so why crib about Palio? Swift may be new design, but it doesn't compete against 1.1. Palio 1.1 just got cheaper and more FE than Palio 1.2, so it still gives more value to user.

It looks better than its competition (Santro/Wagon-R/estillo), has similar FE, more spacious (barring Indica), feels and ride better than competition. Legacy of poor *** will carry on even for Grade Punto, so that cant go against 1.1.

Overall, I wouldn't call it as junk as some other respected members prefer to call it.
Finally an on topic post after 3 pages of endless debate.
Okay RX, first let me make my my argument again
1. Fiat Palio 1.2/1.6 were not bad cars
2. They did not sell, not because they were bad, but because the company treated customers like dirt(Personal experience). I doubt anybody would disagree that Fiat ruined the sales of a good car.
There is an opinion that it was low FE which did in the Palio, I disagree. Indica petrol had a worse reputation FE wise, but look how Tata turned around public perception. 2 years ago I would have cocked an eyebrow at somebody who wanted to buy an indica petrol, now we have many TBHPians buying the Xeta.

So now coming to Palio 1.1
Tata indica petrol was a similar car to Palio 1.2 and sold low numbers. Infact Palio 1.2 was a better car in many ways. The biggest similarity being the sales. Both did not sell.
What did Tata do
They brought out a 1.2 putting out 65 horses, and a 1.4 putting out 70 horses, with both engines torquey. Add to that an aggressive marketing campaign.

Now what about the Stilo?
1.1 engine which is way way underpowered. It has the acceleration figures of a 1980s 1100, maybe worse.
There is no push. Atleast I don't see any.
Every day I browse through a newspaper, I see 3 adverts for the Innova offering special deals, low interest rates on santro, special this special that on wagon R, special discounts on the indica.
All these cars sell. Sell at lot, more than 10,000 cars a month, a figure 10Xmore than the yearly sales of Palio.
Still there is push.
But there is not so much push for the Stilo. People outside tbhp have not heard of the thing(I am talking about the aam junta, who is supposed to buy the 1.1)

Sure, lets blame Tata, but before that, does Ratan Tata own Fiat? Why is a global company which owns ferrari to such a pathetic state here. Are they not serious about the Indian market?

Almost 3 years of dismal sales and lost customers and what does the company do?
Bring out a worse version of a car.
I am sure nobody will disagree that the Fiat Palio 1.2 was a sensible car with decent power. The Stilo 1.1 loses that sensible part.
After driving a 53 bhp car(a diesel so the torque can save you) for 5 years I have learnt to wring out some power and get it to move. In a petrol engine 57bhp?
Remember the Maruti 1000?
Thats what Fiat have done with the Palio.
The earlier palio had almost everything the competition had(Swift, indica, getz).
1. Space
2. Build
3. Power
4. FE with slight tuning was possible too.
But with the new Palio they have made the car worse, while perceptions of Fiat have not gone any better.
In today's market when you take out a later model which is worse than the predecessor, the market does not forgive you.
The Fiat Stilo 1.1 is a very bad car. Why? Not because Indica/swift/getz are better, but because the Fiat Palio 1.2 is a better car than the 1.1

A company like Maruti, Hyundai or even Tata can continue with an old model. Maruti is still selling 10 year old designs.
But Fiat cannot do that. When you lose your reputation in the market, you have to go the extra mile.
You cannot sell a car which is slightly better than the competition, you have to make a car which is many many X better than the competition.

Remember that Fiat was going to close down, as a company. What saved it? A car slightly better? No, that Grande Punto was a car which was miles ahead of competition. It was miles ahead of anything Fiat ever sold in the market.

Fiat has failed to capitalize on the Tata Fiat combine. They have launched something which is direct competition to Xeta. Do you thing Tata dealers will push the 1.1? Or even the 1.6 if Tata decides to put the 16 Valve(101PS) in their cars?

What Fiat should have done is brought in a car which sat above the overcrowded segment of Spark/WagonR/Santro/Indica. They should have come in with the Grande Punto, or something which could "WOW" the market. Something which told the populace, that fiat is not closing down for good.

90% of the car buying market does not do research on build, child on bonnet test etc., esp. in this segment. Why do you think ABS/Airbags are such a rarity? However this market looks at the company. When they see Hyundai/Tata/Maruti badge they see good support, cheap spares, and companies that are here to stay. When they see Fiat logo, they run away.

So what Fiat should have done is launched something that made people stop and look twice. They may not buy it because its not in that volumes segment, but atleast they are wowed by the design.

Fiat has a very very strong European midsize portfolio like the Punto/Linea combo. Thats the Fiat of today.
Fiat Palio is sigul of a bankrupt company, who ditched customers, no use waving that banner, people will look at that, and think of the shoddy A.S.S.
But part a spanking new car which speaks of the turnaround story in the Tata showroom, and you may have a few indigo converts.

Fiat Stilo 1.1 is a way of saying "Look customers, we don't care, we don't want to take risks, we are out to swindle you again".
Even Ford and Hyundai came out with Getz and Fusion. Both slow sellers, but they opened up a new segment. They took the risk. The products did not sell well(Getz did 1000 a month, fusion a few hundred), but is hyundai not selling santro's, or is Ford not selling Fiesta's?

Such risks, willingless to introduce new models shows commitment to the market.
When Hyundai upgraded the Santro engine to 1.1 on customer feedback, it did not need to do so. Santro was selling, but they still did it. They did not wait for it to flop.
When Hyundai upgraded accent it was selling 3000+ a month, not a flop show.
Infact company announced many months before the launch of verna that its going to discontinue accent.

Such level of commitment is lacking from Fiat's side.
That makes stilo a bad car. A car is not an island, its a package. A package which includes the companies vision. Fiat India lacks any vision, or will, to take it forward. Hope that changes, otherwise it will omit a wonderful brand from the Indian market.
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Old 24th April 2007, 11:03   #143
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Tsk, that was one sensible post. But here are my two cents:

1. Tata calls the shots here. Period. Atleast that is what I think. Only a fool would buy the Stile over the Xeta, I agree. Which is why I feel that the Stile is
2. A stop gap arrangement.

Hopefully this should lead to better offerings in 2008. But even then, I am surprised and disturbed that the JTD is still not on any Fiat car. WTH are they thinking?

Overall, in terms of the content of your post, I agree 95%.
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Old 24th April 2007, 11:15   #144
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For two given vehicles of similar design, additional metal does add to safety. Just by putting 2 thin steel rods as side impact beams wouldn't make the car safe.
Agreed. Also, I know what some people are talking about when they speak about "tank" like build quality.

My only surprise is at the dismal performance of the new Palio. I mean, when was the last time that you heard about a car getting slower to the point of being sluggish in its new avatar? Some members have already posted a driving report of the Stile and commented on the extreme lethagy. Typically a manufacturer would introduce a smaller engine and retain the original size (Palio 1.6 vs 1.2, Honda 1.5 vs 1.3 and so on). But here is the 1.2 out and a slower 1.1 coming in. A 0 - 100 of 20 plus seconds is extremely incompetent, and a heavy car powered by a puny engine cant be expected to have good driveability. I also feel it wont be overtly fuel-efficient since the engine will be a tad stressed to cope with the work load but will reserve my comments until some concrete FE numbers come out.

To me, the Palio is losing everything that made it famous in the first place. It might also be good to remember that the Palio, upon launch, sold very well. Infact, it touched 4000 - 5000 sales per month if I remember correctly. Its only after actual user complaints that the car bombed.

Last edited by GTO : 24th April 2007 at 11:16.
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Old 24th April 2007, 11:19   #145
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Originally Posted by merve_extreme View Post
IF you dont understand body rattle then please read, body rattle refers to rattles comming from engine mountings,chassis joints,shock absober mountings,tranmissions,door joints etc..
Ho ho....good going... so fianlly swift is declared rattle free vehicle.
I hope that "etc... " does not include interiors.
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Old 24th April 2007, 11:48   #146
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[quote=GTO;420576]Agreed. Also, I know what some people are talking about when they speak about "tank" like build quality.

Really, Well Palio might be a safe car in addition to the heavy metal. But the safety is not due to heavy metal. Mercedes engineers might have thought they did something really good when they realized that heavy and strong metal is not what makes car safe and added crumple zones.
By the way the thin tinny sheet metal on a car might be hiding really good solid cage inside also. A good safety cage protects the user inside unless we are talking about a spear being driven against a car and not car on car or car against some tree or building kind of accident. You don't want to transfer the impact energy to the inmates by making the car safe.
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Old 24th April 2007, 12:05   #147
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OT: .. This "Built like a Tank" debate will never end... If I were to say that the Humvee is built like a tank, I am sure some poor US soldier in Bagdhad is gonna have serious issues with that statement..

I would say the Palio "feels" better built than a Baleno, but then whether its built like a tank is debatable.
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Old 24th April 2007, 12:13   #148
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Then you also have the question of which exact tank you are referring too. I'm sure someone will ask for proof of that. It's a good thing nobody mentioned something like "it handles like its on rails". Who knows where that would have taken this thread!

I think this thread is nearing its end now. There are those that will like the Palio no matter what, and there are those who won't for perfectly valid reasons. Lets live an let live shall we?
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Old 24th April 2007, 14:05   #149
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Originally Posted by mahadev_kc View Post
I've a photo. Will upload the same and then send a link.
Here it is.
I know it is only a minor accident (which I came across and felt happy when Manipal service center guys told "build quality" is really good)

ImageShack - Hosting :: gruhapravesha267dh1.jpg
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Old 24th April 2007, 14:08   #150
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Tsk,

Nice and objective post without emotions running high unnecessarily

However, I beg to differ on your line of thinking. Or, rather there would be 2 schools of thought.

Let's first summarize current situation of Fiat.
1) People do not buy Fiat because of poor A/S/S.
2) People do not buy Fiat because of poor FE.
3) People do not buy Fiat because of too many problems with Premier Padmnis (for many, Fiat is still linked with Premier) and Fiat Uno.
4) As a result of 1,2,3, Fiat has lost its brand value in India.

To sell any new car in this context, Fiat needs to address each of it. So let's see what are they doing about it.

1) A/S/S : Fiat has tied up with Tata, which gives more assurance for help if your car breaks down in middle of road. Reputation about A/S/S is built over period and not overnight. It will take another year or so for people to realize that they can rely on Tata to service their Fiats. Till this happens, Fiat will be looked at skeptically.

2) FE: This Factor alone bears weightage of >60% in decision making of a normal customer (non T-BHPian may I say). Fiats and GM cars are notorious as Fuel Guzzlers. Even if Fiat launches a new car with 150 bhp engine in C segment, it will just bomb. Reason? Poor FE. Same happened with GTX. (Next to GTX was probably 60 odd bhp Zen and if you consider, 91 bhp Corsa Sail). Fiat has to come up with FE car if it has to change the perception. Problem with 1.2 Palio is that it is nowhere. It is neither more Fuel Efficient nor more powerful than competition. Palio 1.1 will at least be more FE. (But if it is NOT, it will be stupidity on part of Fiat). Grade Punto with 8-9 kmpl doesn't make much sense with Fiat's current stature in customer's mind.

3) Poor Quality: At least 3 Uno -> Palio converts, I know of, vouch for quality of the car. They say the problems are just not there and it is trouble-free car. (There are many disgruntled Uno owners on this forum and of course, happy Palio owners). Most people now-a-days do acknowledge that Fiat cars are good but stay away due to A/S/S and FE ghosts.

One school of thought as you mentioned, will be, to do something radical to attract customers. e.g. launch Grade Punto in the market. This can be a gamble though. It might attract new customers or customer will simply don't look at it due to above mentioned reasons. And if Grade Punto and Linea fails, Fiat would already have cut all its ropes to return.

Other school of thought would be to plan/build slowly and turn around the situation over period of time. A/S/S perception change can happen through Tata service centers and FE worries can partially be erased through cars like 1.1. It might keep the brand alive till Fiat consolidates its operations and sets platform for Grade Punto and Linea next year.

Fiat seems to have adopted second approach and is slowly increasing sales (not noteworthy yet) through Tata distributors, which is +ve sign.

Each approach will have its own drawbacks and hence, not complete. But, one has to choose one of it and Fiat seems to have opted for more calculated and cautious approach.

Last edited by RX135 : 24th April 2007 at 14:12.
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