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Old 15th April 2007, 19:03   #16
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i call it an indian G wagon, have traveled from Karwar to Goa and on virtually non existent roads and thats where this vehicles thrives.. its fast reliable and pretty ok and no point comparing it with safari or scorpio

engine is supposed to be bullet proof for 2 lakh kms plus as experienced in my dads office fleets but on expensive side when it comes to overhaul hmmmm in another 10 years driving for us i guess

again as steeroid pointed it aint a car also, bright side it aint that bad also and with PS, AC and good set of seats you will be at home after couple of100 kms
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Old 15th April 2007, 19:10   #17
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Samu, about your living close to comfort, we once bought a gypsy for going to the farm.
The road was carable, but then you could just drive to the farm, slowly, very slowly. Park there. Take the tractor and go for the ride, go fording rivers etc.,
The gypsy king came and all changed. I was 20 then and climbing up 40 degree gradients with smell of burnt clutch on Low 4WD was my idea of fun. So was fording rivers, going where I had never gone before.
But the gypsy was replaced by an indica,then another idica and then an indigo. Reason, the comfort level really really sucked.
Sore backs, no comforts, and no AC in 40 degree + heat. Add to that low mileage of 10kmpl on petrol,(12-14 on highways).
So before you go for a bare bone as in real bare bone, think.
If safari is too delicate, then the Tatamobile(The truck, not the TL) makes a good option. You can even mount a tripod in the cargo bay, go middle of a river and shoot
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Old 15th April 2007, 19:42   #18
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Re riding comfort for long journey, I was told by Force dealer driver that he has driven 1000 km straight in Trax and get back to work rightaway but if on Bolero he would need to take rest of day off. Obviously a biased opinion, but could be true.
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Old 15th April 2007, 19:46   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
But the gypsy was replaced by an indica,then another idica and then an indigo. Reason, the comfort level really really sucked. Sore backs, no comforts, and no AC in 40 degree + heat. Add to that low mileage of 10kmpl on petrol,(12-14 on highways).
We are comparing apples and oranges here. Gypsy has one of the worst rides, every one knows that. And I ain't considering anything without A/C. Also we are talking about a diesel SUV.


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So before you go for a bare bone as in real bare bone, think. If safari is too delicate, then the Tatamobile(The truck, not the TL) makes a good option. You can even mount a tripod in the cargo bay, go middle of a river and shoot
You mean the Tata 207 DI crew cab, I saw the reviews at MouthShut, but they don't say anything about ride quality on bad roads which is of paramount importance to me.
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Old 15th April 2007, 19:53   #20
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rrnss (of force4x4 site) had, in earlier posts talked about 'tubular chassis' and other features which makes this a good buy from riding comfort, even without 4WD. It would be interesting for an experienced Bolero/Safari driver to test this out and compare.

I have never driven one, but one thing I have noticed, if a Trax vehicle passes you buy on the street, the sound is quite muffled and soft. But with Bolero/Sumo , you can hear a huge noise. Even at traffic stops with all the noise of engines, you simply cannot fail to hear a waiting Sumo/Bolero, not so with Trax.
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Old 15th April 2007, 20:14   #21
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Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
We are comparing apples and oranges here. Gypsy has one of the worst rides, every one knows that. And I ain't considering anything without A/C. Also we are talking about a diesel SUV.

You mean the Tata 207 DI crew cab, I saw the reviews at MouthShut, but they don't say anything about ride quality on bad roads which is of paramount importance to me.
From the review it seems no AC there too.
If you are in no hurry you can join me in the queue for the 2.2 TL
There is the Safari 2.2 Pre launch party going on for more than a year now, the more the merrier!

On a more serious note find out about spare parts costs etc., When a vehicle sells so few in number, there is possibility that you are the beta tester.
You can also drive down to Kasargode, as North kerala has many Trax 12-14 seater jeeps, and ask them about maintenance costs etc.,
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Old 15th April 2007, 20:32   #22
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Quote:
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Nice matter-of-fact review, Samurai !
FAW is Front Axle Weight
RAW is Rear Axle Weight
GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) is the total of the two.
Thanks Ram, but that doesn't give any idea about the Kerb weight.
Dry Weight
Weight of vehicle as shipped,
without fuel, brake fluid, clutch fluid, power steering fluid, windshield washer fluid, radiator coolant or lubricating oils in the engine, gearbox, 4wd transfercase and both differentials, is Dry Weight.

Kerb weight is the weight of the ready to run vehicle with all fluids but without payload (passengers nor cargo).

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Quote:
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There's one more aspect to these vehicles and I have had a Mahindra MM540 4x4 for almost eight years. They make for really tiring journeys.
How was the ride comfort, that is a big thing for us even above creature comforts.
Ride comfort was poor. Our solid live axle Mahindras and Forces don't have independent suspension.

When you drop a single wheel into a pothole or lift it onto a bump in the road, the vehicle will tilt. This translates to a harsh jolt, when the road surface is bad. {as in NVH (noise, vibration and harshness)}

With a good working independent suspension, that wheel's suspension would absorb the wheel travel without rocking the entire vehicle.

On two wheel drive Scorpios with independent "A" arm suspension, the harsh jolt is absorbed at least on the front axle.

The Humvee (HMMWV) on the other hand takes care of this by independent "A" arm suspension on all 4 wheels with geared hubs and articulated axle-halfshafts. So ride comfort is better when you have 4 wheel independent suspension like the HMMWV.

Bottomline: A solid live axle 4x4 will have higher levels of NVH as compared to the cars we are used to.

Aside: Traveled between Bombay and Udipi a lot during 1975-1980 by CPC, Ballal, Ghatge-Patil and Shankar-Vittal buses. Always needed 8-10 hours to recover from the journey. Today with a modern Volvo B7R, air-suspension, a properly isolated low-vibration engine and gearbox mounts and radial tires, NVH levels are so low that, that tiredness is a thing of the past.
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Old 15th April 2007, 20:34   #23
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OM651 is the new Mercedez engine being developed, there is no talk of it being offered to Force - unlikely because it is brand new and not even introduced in advanced markets yet. OM611 is somewhat dated but still used by MB, that is the one Force shows in its web page in 'What's new' section. But I heard even that is many months away from being introduced by Force, if ever.
You are right ggkg. The OM651 will replace the OM611 in Merc's lineup and the OM611 will be offered to Force for fitment in their Traveller. It would be wise of them to put it in their Trax lineup as well.
...::: Welcome to the Area of Home Contacts section of Force Motors :::...
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Old 15th April 2007, 20:51   #24
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MB (through Tempo) used to have financial stake / interest in Force but now that is not there. There is no reason why they would part with their latest technology to a vendor that too one that is not a volume player. At best they may sell their engines to Force for OEM use, even that is not worthwhile for MB for image reasons. So IMHO we may never see 651 in Force vehicles, unless there is some miracle.

Re OM611, the delays we are seeing in introducing this engine in both the Traveller buses and in Trax means either Force is not serious about this MCV/LCV business (having formed a new JV with MAN for HCV) or MB is holding something back / not giving the right backup, having lost interest. Perhaps Force is waiting for emission norms to be further tightened as price conscious buyers of Force buses and Toofans etc., will never pay for quality unless forced by norms. In which case there is no big hurry until 2010 or even later for rural markets.
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Old 15th April 2007, 21:36   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram View Post
Dry Weight
Weight of vehicle as shipped,
without fuel, brake fluid, clutch fluid, power steering fluid, windshield washer fluid, radiator coolant or lubricating oils in the engine, gearbox, 4wd transfercase and both differentials, is Dry Weight.

Kerb weight is the weight of the ready to run vehicle with all fluids but without payload (passengers nor cargo).
Ram, I know the definition of Kerb weight. I was saying I didn't get an idea of Gama's Kerb weight since only max values were mentioned.


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Ride comfort was poor. Our solid live axle Mahindras and Forces don't have independent suspension.
I think the saga continues on Mahindra vehicles even now. That way Gama has front independent suspension with hydraulic telescopic shock absorbers and antiroll bars. The rear is solid live axle on leaf strings with hydraulic telescopic shock absorbers. The ride in the front and middle row is really good. Don't know about back benchers.

The NVH is really low, since there was no A/C we drove with windows down. Still we heard only traffic, not Mr.Gama, he was very quiet. That's according to my wife, I was not focusing on it.
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Old 16th April 2007, 08:05   #26
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The test drive I did is mainly lacking in one aspect. Since I am not used to driving Diesel SUVs, I couldn't assess the driving performance of Gama, I simply didn't have a reference point. The vehicle sounded very willing and smooth when the Force driver drove it. But I don't think I made justice to it thanks to my petrol only background.

Therefore I would request members who have extensive diesel SUV experience to test drive the Gama and post your findings.
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Old 16th April 2007, 10:03   #27
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Damn, That thing looks horrid. Its gotta get my vote for the worst looking MUV......No. Actually it looks like its from a different planet. If anything Samurai, get the Gurkha but not this. I dont know about availability and all that but this is crazy.

Going further on what Steeroid said, this MUV is too crude, too basic and too utilitarian. It is not made keeping your customer profile in mind. Trust me, I own a basic Mahindra. It lacks many of the creature comforts that we would take for granted...even something as simple as the being rattle-free and good heat insulation on the floors. Small but irritatingly consistent niggling issues keep cropping up all the time. Samurai - Also keep safety in mind. Not only is this a bad handler but I doubt its ever been crash tested.

Quote:
Scorpio and Safari were designed for urbanites with all the luxuries in mind, and also priced as luxury cars. But the quality related niggles I have heard on the forum, I don't want to face them after paying so much money. I need a SUV to actually drive in rural roads, really terrible rural roads.
The Scorpio and Safari will comfortably take all the bad roads you can throw on it. Dont worry about it.

Another option is the Gypsy. Yes, I know the ride quality is harsh but you always have the Baleno for the highways. For your local town runabouts and local off-roading, the Gypsy will keep you happiest.

Last edited by GTO : 16th April 2007 at 10:29.
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Old 16th April 2007, 10:41   #28
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GTO, this is not my What car thread. So, let's keep the focus on Gama here. I already received a warning from a mod regarding that.

Hey, my wife and I liked the external looks in black, so I guess we have very different tastes. Remember how most people hate the look of Baleno, but many of us like that look. Our main gripe is the interiors, it is not just plain, it is completely missing.
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Old 16th April 2007, 10:42   #29
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Samurai, go for it!. In black or military green with good seats, it is not as bad looking, in fact much better looking than Sumo/Bolero. Scorpio is as tacky and wierd as a transvestite, unless you like the Filipino Jeepney. Ride quality in both are horrible Gamma has to be really bad to be worse.

In terms of image both Sumo/Bolero are known to be low class crude vehicles. Only Safari scores better on image, but then at much higher price.

My $0.02
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Old 16th April 2007, 10:53   #30
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Nice write-up Samurai. Never had the chance to travel in one of these so cannot comment on the ride.

However, on a recent trip to some chikoo plantations in Gujarat, I was driven around on all sorts of roads in a Bolero, and frankly I was really amazed by its refinement inside. It was silent, seats were comfortable and the ride was surprisingly smooth with far less bump and roll than a Scorpio, which makes it quite nice for the passengers. On one trip I was stuffed in the jump seats at the rear and it was still bearable. Those drives changed my opinion of the Bolero, so maybe you can test one out and judge for yourself.
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