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Old 18th April 2007, 12:46   #91
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I am commented on a topic where most of my knowledge is based on what I have heard/read and a lot of it is based on discussion with RRNSS on phone. Anyway I will post for benefit of others as I dont know if he has time to clarify. The real guru will obviously express it better.

There is a lot of difference between 4WD and diff lock. In standard 4wd vehicles (like all vehicles such as jeep, Sumo/Bolero/Safari), power gets distributed to 4 wheels in such a way that the wheel with least resistance gets all the power. This is useless distribution when that wheel is stuck and cannot provide traction. DL allows you to redistribute it manually to wheel that can provide traction and not waste it on wheel that is spinning free.

Two wheel is even worse because it only provides power to 2 wheels, not 4. That means the range of situations where you are stuck are higher because all you need is the wheels that are driven to be stuck and your entire vehicle is stuck. With 4wd without DL that range of stuck-able situations is narrower. With 4wd and DL it is even narrower, though NOT zero.
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Old 18th April 2007, 12:54   #92
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I am still unable to get the price quote for a Gama with BS-III, PS, AC and 4WD. The local dealership is saying that this configuration is only against order, so they don't know the price. They are still awaiting reply from the factory.

Regarding diff locks, the dealership sales manager very confidently replied that the 4wd version does come with differential locks.
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Old 18th April 2007, 15:32   #93
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The dealership in tvpm told that the price for the ac, ps model is 5.8 lacs.
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Old 18th April 2007, 15:41   #94
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Originally Posted by swathyd View Post
The dealership in tvpm told that the price for the ac, ps model is 5.8 lacs.
That's BS-III? Can they still sell BS-II in tvpm?
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Old 18th April 2007, 15:44   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggkg View Post
I am commented on a topic where most of my knowledge is based on what I have heard/read and a lot of it is based on discussion with RRNSS on phone. Anyway I will post for benefit of others as I dont know if he has time to clarify. The real guru will obviously express it better.

There is a lot of difference between 4WD and diff lock. In standard 4wd vehicles (like all vehicles such as jeep, Sumo/Bolero/Safari), power gets distributed to 4 wheels in such a way that the wheel with least resistance gets all the power. This is useless distribution when that wheel is stuck and cannot provide traction. DL allows you to redistribute it manually to wheel that can provide traction and not waste it on wheel that is spinning free.

Two wheel is even worse because it only provides power to 2 wheels, not 4. That means the range of situations where you are stuck are higher because all you need is the wheels that are driven to be stuck and your entire vehicle is stuck. With 4wd without DL that range of stuck-able situations is narrower. With 4wd and DL it is even narrower, though NOT zero.
DL locks the differential and provides the same power the wheels. It does not give power to wheel in grip. That would be AWD systems.
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Old 18th April 2007, 18:46   #96
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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
DL locks the differential and provides the same power the wheels. It does not give power to wheel in grip. That would be AWD systems.
A 4x4 with a traditional transfer case and diff. locks at both the axles (a.k.a. Gurkha/Judo) distributes torque in such a manner that each wheel gets as much as it can do justice to, and they generally spin only when all four can't cope with the situation. The major difference between traditional 4x4s and more sophisticated systems with a central differential (in place of a transfer case) and traction control (so called AWD) is that all the wheels turn at the same speed in the case of the former.
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Old 19th April 2007, 01:10   #97
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I apologize for my poor sentence construction. The part about the seats in my post are misleading.

The original seats that come in the gamma/judo 4x4 is absolute nonsense. Atleast the front bucket seats. When you drive down a steep decline, some thing gets unlocked and the entire driver seat slips forward pushing you against the steering wheel.

If you try to push your back against the back rest, lift your rear end up and remove your wallet from your back pocket while sitting in the seat, the seat welding simply brakes. In one sentence the company seats are phenominally bad and I am not talking about ergonomics etc. It literally breaks.

The seats in my car are made in coimbatore. That includes the frames, the springs the cushion and the seats have also been slightly repositioned.

It cost me 30000 rupees including sound proofing.

There is no basic difference between gamma and judo. except for the engine. The judo came with the Indirect injection OM616 or it's TC variant FT2400. The Gamma used to come as the base model with the DI TD2650 engine. ( similar to bolero DI and XD3PU) .

Because of emissions and fuel effeciency concerns, Force is slowly phasing out the IDI OM616 and making the DI TD2650 its standard. (72 bhp and almost 20kgm of torque).

The same gamma that used to come with the 45 HP TD2650 engine is given with A/C and P/S as gamma deluxe with teh TD2650 FTI engine with 72 BHP( which used to be Judo DLX only with the FT2400 engine ). The gamma deluxe comes with BSII/BSIII turbo charged intercooled engine.

As for water proofing, in any simple robust diesel engine you can go into the water till your air filter is above the water level. Both the gamma and Judo can ford depths of about 3 feet. So there is no basic difference.
After that even if you waterproof your air intake , your electronic fuel pump (BSIII) will malfunction under water. So the arguement that JUDO is more water proof than GAMMA or vice versa is a moot point.

Gamma comes with diff locks if you ask for it , same a judo.

Think of Gamma Deluxe 4x4 as a renamed JUDO 4x4 DLX , only the engine is the TD2650 FTI instead of FT2400. Thats it. The tires, the brakes, the rim (16 inch) , the ground clearance, dimensions, steering, linkages, suspension are all identical.

Now about the differential locks. They are marvelous. If you go to YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. and search for rrnsss , you will see a video of me using the diff locks at the nagerhole jungle. But you can also go to My SPGM gallery and see how I got stuck even with diff locks because of my own stupidity.

I owned a Bolero GLX 4x4 for about an year. At the risk of offending bolero owners, I would say that comparing a judo to a bolero is like comparing a true soldier of the Indian army who is posted in siachen to a salman khan who plays a solder in a movie about siachen.

The next time you see a bolero 4x4, just perform this experiment. Walk over to the front end of the car to the right or left weel, bend down and see the clearance between the front leaf spring and the rubber stopper that stops it. It is about 1/2 and inch. Yes, it is true. So every time you hit a pot hole with a bolero 4x4 the suspension bottoms out and you will feel like some one is punching you under your chin. It used to get so bad during my drives, I used to take my hands off the steering wheel. All that shock is transfered to the gear box because the Transfer case is mounted on the gear box and it damages the gear box. I lost the synchros in my gear box by 14000Kms.

check out these pictures of how easy it is to get stuck in a bolero

My SPGM Picture Gallery

The articulation of the axles is very limited and the wheels loose traction very quickly.

Bolero is a very good car in the 2wd version. Sadly M&M just jury-rigged a front axle and differential and called it a 4wd with out any real engineering.

If you want to learn the main advantages of a diff lock check out the page What is so great about differential locks?

Thanks for entertaing my posts

Ram
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Old 19th April 2007, 07:52   #98
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OK, does the Gama have a transfer case with a 4x4 low gear. If so what is the ratio?

Also any comparison of approach angle, departure angle and breakover angle.

Last edited by Mpower : 20th April 2007 at 05:21.
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Old 19th April 2007, 08:06   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Guys, I am a little surprised. Everybody is suggesting buy anything else, but nobody is telling what's wrong with Trax Gama or Force motors.

Do Trax vehicles have a bad rap when it comes to reliability, A.S.S or spares cost? Please let's focus on that.
Yes..very much and they are prone to rust easily!! The quality of steel used is BAD!!

It does have a good engine gearbox combo though!
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Old 19th April 2007, 08:39   #100
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You'll probably need to invest atleast Rs 60k on top of the on road price to make a decent family vehicle out of it .. Seats + Alloy wheels + paint job etc.

Paint job may not be necessary, but I doubt if the ugly stickers can be removed easily without damaging the paint.
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Old 19th April 2007, 09:21   #101
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Originally Posted by rrnsss View Post
At the risk of offending bolero owners, I would say that comparing a judo to a bolero is like comparing a true soldier of the Indian army who is posted in siachen to a salman khan who plays a solder in a movie about siachen.
May be Normal citizen likes Salman Playing the role [ ref: bolero once rated as best selling UV in India] rather than not selling soldier on 4X4.
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Old 19th April 2007, 09:29   #102
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Originally Posted by headers View Post
Yes..very much and they are prone to rust easily!! The quality of steel used is BAD!!

It does have a good engine gearbox combo though!
Not really. The vehicles are now electro-phoretically painted like the Traveller and they are not as corrosion prone as before. My advice would be to buy a Force vehicle only in an area that has quite a few of them. Spares can be a pain, specially body and tinker parts like door handles, window winding mechanism, grills etc.
I have had only good experiences on my Tempo Traveller and surprisingly minimal mechanical breakdowns eeven after 1.5 lakh kms.
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Old 19th April 2007, 11:10   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
OK, does the Gama have a transfer case with a 4x4 low geat. If so what is the ratio?

Also any comparison of approach angle, departure angle and breakover angle.
angle of approach = 40 deg
angle of departure = 35 deg

as per the force motors promotional vid
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Old 20th April 2007, 14:29   #104
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Got an update from the local dealer.

The Bad News
Gama BSIII with PS, AC and 4WD is not available, they don't even have an order code for it. You can get BSIII with PS and AC, but not 4WD. You also get BSII with 4WD, but not AC & PS. Also, the Gama 4WD doesn't come with differential locks.

The Good News
Now the Gurkha is back in commerical production, it is available in both SWB and LWB chassis, both are called Gurkha now. The first ones of the assembly are supposed to roll out within 15-30 days. This is a fully loaded one with AC,PS,BS-III and diff locks. He told me to wait for my cousin's Gurkha delivery (delivered at same dealership) and then check it out.
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Old 20th April 2007, 14:32   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Got an update from the local dealer.

The Bad News
Gama BSIII with PS, AC and 4WD is not available, they don't even have an order code for it. You can get BSIII with PS and AC, but not 4WD. You also get BSII with 4WD, but not AC & PS. Also, the Gama 4WD doesn't come with differential locks.

The Good News
Now the Gurkha is back in commerical production, it is available in both SWB and LWB chassis, both are called Gurkha now. The first ones of the assembly are supposed to roll out within 15-30 days. This is a fully loaded one with AC,PS,BS-III and diff locks. He told me to wait for my cousin's Gurkha delivery (delivered at same dealership) and then check it out.

Wow! You really are convinced about the Gama/Gurkha, aren't you. Good to see such a single minded approach. All the best!

Do keep us posted when your cousin's Gurkha arrives as well as about the mods he does on it.
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