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Old 21st April 2007, 11:57   #136
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If Honda is coming out with ABS / Airbags, which I assume will be on their Vtec Model, I am sure they will increase the price by another 75K at least which makes it very expensive. I feel its high time that the Indian Automobile Association ( or whatever it is called ) should make Airbags compulsary for every car like they have in the UK/US ( correct me if I am wrong ), In India they made rear seatbelts & stoplights compulsary a few years back, Why not Airbags ? Accidents alone claim hundreds of lives every day, This will surely reduce if there are Airbags. I think Swift ZXi is a perfect car offering all safety parameters in a very tempting package. Why should others not follow ? Be it Honda or Hyundai, It is ridiculous for us to spend 8 Lacs + on a Verna or City and not have any safety, travelling at 150+ kph speeds. The newly awaited SX4 by MUL is going to have airbags/ABS on their 2 models out of 4 I think. Lets wait & watch.
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Old 21st April 2007, 12:15   #137
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mahindra is sincerely taking feedback after each test drive and posting the same to their head office. i know for sure they will tell the same to renault, but what renault would want to do is totally another story.

this is how they brought about scorpio v2, which was much better after listening to customers. well i dont say anyone will be perfect, atleast they are showing the good attitude of listening to what others think are problems. so someday the power window switches on logan will finally be on the windows
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Old 21st April 2007, 13:59   #138
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Originally Posted by SuperSyn View Post
Believe it or not, the temperature gauge was deleted after some women/female participants in the study complained that they found it un-necessary, and that it needlessly cluttered and complicated the instrument panel.
If thats the case,most women (and even some men) should find the tachometer a big complicated piece of junk.There are so many out there who would'nt know what that thingy is.That should have been missing as well in the NHC.

Have an NHC in the family.It was just stupid of Honda to delete such a vital instrument.There is just this small blue indicator that lights up when the car is switched on for the first time in the day,indicating that the engine ihas not reached the proper operating temperature.But how the hell would I know if something is burning in there??

Food for thought-If the NHC is a car made for the ladies,then why do Indian men swoon over that car like bees??

I agree,what applies to Logan should apply to the highly overpriced Jap car as well.
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Old 21st April 2007, 23:02   #139
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Correct me if I am wrong (also in which case, this post is irrelevant), but isn't it true that the New Honda City does not offer a temperature gauge too, neither analog nor digital ?? Also I don't believe the NHC also offers ABS or airbag(s), correct ??? while a supposedly "low-cost" world car at least offers an airbag on its higher end model at a premium.
For the simple reason that the NHC is NOT a bare-basic cheap car at all. It has fabulous interiors, great build quality and does come decently equipped. If I might add, it does have the "feel good" factor and feels pretty luxurious for a 7.5 lac car. In addition, it is very refined and does most things well (except for maybe a drag race). The NHC is far from the "cheap" car; quite the opposite to be honest. Please do check the sheer quality of the NHC versus the Logan and it will be evident why the not-so-cheap supposed-to-be-cheap car has been lambasted at.

However, I agree that its surprising that the NHC still doesnt come with ABS and air-bags though.

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Check for the Dacia Logan (not Renault, mind you - Renault never seems to sell this as a Renault Logan) - it says 3 stars very clearly.
It must also be noted that the 3 star rating is for the "Dacia Logan" which has passenger side airbags and ABS; none of which the Indian Logan has.
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Old 22nd April 2007, 00:15   #140
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For the simple reason that the NHC is NOT a bare-basic cheap car at all. It has fabulous interiors, great build quality and does come decently equipped. If I might add, it does have the "feel good" factor and feels pretty luxurious for a 7.5 lac car. In addition, it is very refined and does most things well (except for maybe a drag race). The NHC is far from the "cheap" car; quite the opposite to be honest. Please do check the sheer quality of the NHC versus the Logan and it will be evident why the not-so-cheap supposed-to-be-cheap car has been lambasted at.

However, I agree that its surprising that the NHC still doesnt come with ABS and air-bags though.

It must also be noted that the 3 star rating is for the "Dacia Logan" which has passenger side airbags and ABS; none of which the Indian Logan has.
GTO,
I think I am quite with you on all points`with respect to the NHC and its refinement. But I don't think that justifies leaving out the temperaure gauge.

I think my point has been missed again. I was not pointing out at specific cars. I was using the NHC to point to manufacturer attitude. The refinement of the NHC is not in question here.

The question here is whether or not Honda is cheap to omit the temp. gauge.

I also understand exactly why the Logan is being lambasted here. I believe I made it quite clear I was not defending the Logan or M&M.

I was merely questioning the double standard.

FWIW, (if its true at all) i am of the opinion, women respondents wanting an uncluttered dash is one of the lamest reasons for omitting an important diagnostic utility such as the temperature gauge.

Refinement is all very well, but some things are just not done, IMO.

Last edited by hell_rider : 22nd April 2007 at 00:26.
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Old 22nd April 2007, 00:18   #141
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I can answer for the lack of a proper temperature gauge in NHC.

It has *nothing* to do with cost cutting. When developing this platform Honda did studies and in Europe, UK particularly, about its specifications and how it will be marketed etc. They were trying to find out who will be the target consumers of this platform, given its size, configuration, performance, likely price etc.

Amongst the data collected on the annual incomes, age etc of likely customers, very early it became clear that the largest segment of customers for this platform would be women/female drivers (in addition to any men/male, of course). Like any other successful manufacturer, Honda went out and started asking the potential customers questions to tailor the product to their demands and expectations.

Believe it or not, the temperature gauge was deleted after some women/female participants in the study complained that they found it un-necessary, and that it needlessly cluttered and complicated the instrument panel.

The solution was to have a 'simple' lamp instead of a 'complicated' gauge.

I can only presume that a *significant* portion of the target customers would have made this point for Honda to take this step.
Well, we need to keep these women away from aircraft manufacturers for sure. Imagine what these females would do to a cockpit in the interest of uncluttered instrumentation. And god save us then.

Last edited by hell_rider : 22nd April 2007 at 00:27.
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Old 22nd April 2007, 02:59   #142
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Logan also may have similar customer feedback..isnt it?
The temperature gauge thing is only one issue. Just compare the quality of the Jazz/Fit versus the Logan.

If Dacia/Renault would have conducted similar studies, they wouldn't have made the Logan so cheap. Just because a car is supposed to be cheap doesn't mean it has to look cheap too. It is a running theme with the Logan, every aspect reeks of cheap-ness.
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Old 22nd April 2007, 03:30   #143
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It was just stupid of Honda to delete such a vital instrument.

Food for thought-If the NHC is a car made for the ladies,then why do Indian men swoon over that car like bees??
I agree with you, I also resent the absence of the gauge. But you and I weren't part of the study group. We aren't even the largest set of comsumers for the product.

*shrug*

As for Indian 'male' infatuation with the car, well two things really:

1. We have fewer choice/options from which to choose, in other developed caountries/economies there are other cars that 'men' flock to. Which is not to say that there are no male owners/fans of the car in other markets. The car has always been positioned as a sesnible, no-nonsese, entry level transportation. It certainly excels in that role.

In India, of course, it enjoys a totally different status! That has more to do with the Indian market rather than the car and its owners.

2. We also see more male drivers and fewer female drivers for NHC because that is the reality of driver/owner demographics in India. Outside the major cities, how many women drivers/owners are there, irrespective of the car? Some ways to go here too.
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Old 22nd April 2007, 09:55   #144
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I agree with you, I also resent the absence of the gauge. But you and I weren't part of the study group. We aren't even the largest set of comsumers for the product.

*shrug*

As for Indian 'male' infatuation with the car, well two things really:

1. We have fewer choice/options from which to choose, in other developed caountries/economies there are other cars that 'men' flock to. Which is not to say that there are no male owners/fans of the car in other markets. The car has always been positioned as a sesnible, no-nonsese, entry level transportation. It certainly excels in that role.

In India, of course, it enjoys a totally different status! That has more to do with the Indian market rather than the car and its owners.
well put supersyn. definitely agree with you on that.

i too believe the NHC is a good car. Unlike many others I also do not have a problem with its looks. I kind of like its out of the ordinary styling.

i guess it will be a while before we here in India stop getting the short end of the stick.

Anyways, looks like M&M has had their bluff called. Guess you can't get lucky twice. Not in an industry like this where you expect customers to part with close to 8 big ones. Or is it still too early to make that kind of statement ??

Last edited by hell_rider : 22nd April 2007 at 10:02.
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Old 22nd April 2007, 10:22   #145
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GTO,
I think I am quite with you on all points`with respect to the NHC and its refinement. But I don't think that justifies leaving out the temperaure gauge.

The question here is whether or not Honda is cheap to omit the temp. gauge.
Agreed. Of course it is cheap of Honda to overlook the temp gauge. There is no denying that. Its also a known fact and one that has been often discussed on this forum of how Honda has overpriced some cars just because of its brand value in India.

But the Logan is being lambasted for MORE than only the omission of the temperature gauge. Almost everything is either cheap or not there at all.

I hope that is clear enough to clear up the "double standards" misconception.
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Old 22nd April 2007, 10:49   #146
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Originally Posted by SuperSyn View Post
1. The temperature gauge thing is only one issue. Just compare the quality of the Jazz/Fit versus the Logan.

2. If Dacia/Renault would have conducted similar studies, they wouldn't have made the Logan so cheap.
1. My point was specific to Temperature gauge in logan and NHC. Absence of temperature gauge in NHC , just as in logan , is a clear case of cost cutting. If it can be justified in NHC by "customer feedbacK" . same rule can also apply to Logan.

2. IMO Logan got their study and "customer feedback" spot on. 4,26,109 Logans sold all over the world between 2004 and end of 2006 proves that. Dacia Logan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 22nd April 2007, 10:58   #147
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would like to know from which poor country come these customers who want "features" like power window switches at the foot!! personally other than this one thing, other nags can be lived with on the logan. the price though is definitely going to take a beating.
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Old 22nd April 2007, 11:54   #148
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Agreed. Of course it is cheap of Honda to overlook the temp gauge. There is no denying that. Its also a known fact and one that has been often discussed on this forum of how Honda has overpriced some cars just because of its brand value in India.

But the Logan is being lambasted for MORE than only the omission of the temperature gauge. Almost everything is either cheap or not there at all.

I hope that is clear enough to clear up the "double standards" misconception.
clear enough and that is fair.

so what we are saying is, both manufacturers have left out some important goodies (w.r.t. honda i am more bothered that they left out ABS / airbags which Logan offers [airbag only]). So it can be said both have "exhibited" different levels of "cheapness". But Honda compensates over and above for the omissions by offering a superior product in the other parameters and thereby, to some extent, justifies the premium it charges. But M&M|Renault does not offer that level of build quality / refinement to justify its price.

The way I see it, the Logan fails on three crucial factors, one or all of which every prospective customer would be looking for :
1. VFM - costlier than Indigo, dangerously [or should I say ridiculously] close to the Fiesta.
2. Refinement levels / performance / build quality ordinary or below par. So it fails on the excitement front as well.
3. Lack of snob appeal / pride of possession.

that sums it up for me. As mentioned by another fellow member, its neither here nor there.

Additionally GTO,

My double-standard point was not directed at you or your review. I did quote from your review to highlight the point, so as to make a basis for my stated opinion.

But I think it can be said that a considerable percentage of the general car-buying population does indeed hold such a bias. Honda etc. are holy cows which cannot be pointed at. This could either be due to ignorance of comparative information on features or straight-up snob factor or purely on account of the brand value Honda enjoys.
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Old 22nd April 2007, 12:53   #149
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They should have had a Model that comes between DLE and DLS with not just the basic features. But anyways, this doesn't look like it can compete Fiesta or Verna. This could have been a Car to look upto during the early days of Accent, May be.
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Old 22nd April 2007, 18:06   #150
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so what we are saying is, both manufacturers have left out some important goodies (w.r.t. honda i am more bothered that they left out ABS / airbags which Logan offers [airbag only]). So it can be said both have "exhibited" different levels of "cheapness".
Nope, except for the omission of the fuel gauge, the NHC has all the basic (and a bit more goodies). The logan, on the other hand, does NOT have sheer basics; good sound insulation, hood opener on the right side, door handles, mirror-control knobs, dicky opener....These are basics which the Logan lacks and hence comes across as an el-cheapo.

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But I think it can be said that a considerable percentage of the general car-buying population does indeed hold such a bias. Honda etc. are holy cows which cannot be pointed at.
Undoubtedly. They do charge a premium for the brand. But then, Honda and Toyota have built their reputation on historically providing reliable, all-rounded and customer-centric products. There is a reason why Toyota will very soon take the no.1 worldwide sales position very soon.

Last edited by GTO : 22nd April 2007 at 18:15.
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