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Old 18th April 2007, 13:01   #76
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I don't know wether its being brought up before in this thread, but Top gear did a survey among people to find out the most and least reliable cars.
In the Bottom 10 there were 3 Renaults. How reliable is such a "built to a cost" car.
First it was Tata's experimenting on the public with indica, now we have Mahindra.
This is the first ever car from a jeep maker.
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Old 18th April 2007, 13:08   #77
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Quote:
This is the first ever car from a jeep maker.
Tanveer, Scorpio was not a bad attempt from M&M, although it did have issues with it... lately, although they seem to have overboard with the styling changes.

I appreciate them for the effort, but they should have been careful with the pricing. To me, having just one reverse light at the rear is hideous !!

All said and done, it looks set for the cab segment... and in white, suits the job.
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Old 18th April 2007, 13:14   #78
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
This is the first ever car from a jeep maker.
Ford Escort was built and sold by Mahindras earlier in a JV with Ford

they also sold Mahindra Voyager, a diesel engined people mover , based on an old mitsubishi design
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Old 18th April 2007, 13:16   #79
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Scorpio is not a car.
Tata also made Estate and Sierra, but they were not car's. The first car was indica. And it sucked real bad when it came. There were all sorts of problems including engines falling off in running cars.
So I doubt they learned much from the Voyager or even the Escort which bombed.
Similarly Logan is Mahindra's first car. In a car they will do lots of things new. Other thing is that it is a Renault, which are known for very low quality and low reliability cars in Europe.

Last edited by tsk1979 : 18th April 2007 at 13:18.
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Old 18th April 2007, 13:31   #80
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Originally Posted by w 12 View Post
Ford Escort was built and sold by Mahindras earlier in a JV with Ford
Only in name. It was a Ford show all the way - it was initially ASSEMBLED by Ford using Mahindra's facilities in Nasik, and when the Ford factory was finally running they got Mahindra out of the equation.

It was never an equal relationship. I wonder how this one turns out - the French are very bad partners.
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Old 18th April 2007, 13:45   #81
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Tsk, I remember that episode of TG.
Almost all the unreliable cars were french.
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Old 18th April 2007, 13:49   #82
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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post

So I doubt they learned much from the Voyager or even the Escort which bombed.
Not sure about the Escort Bombing. It was discontinued when Ikon was introduced in India. Rememebr they even had an Alpha version with 1.6 litres, 16 Valve , DOHC engine delivering 85 BHP in those days..can still see some of these escorts running around in Bangalore. ( it was at no.2 in JD edwards apeal ratings I think in 98 )

Mahindras - the market will teach them a lesson if they have not learnt a lesson or try to take their customers for granted..IMO to sell 50,000 logan cars in a year may not be very difficult..and the base diesel would form a substantial chunk of cars sold.. ( indigos i think sell more than 5000 + units / month.. )

@steer - Anand mahindra, on asked by a tv channel recently why the JV with Ford didnt work out , said Mahindras didnt want to be just an " escort service " to anybody , including Ford..and they were looking for partnership with a substantial stake . ( With renault it is 51 : 49 ).
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Old 18th April 2007, 13:56   #83
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Originally Posted by Dippy View Post
Thats a very good review you put up ET. Going by the no. of times you have used cheap in your review, I think what Mahindra meant by getting the Logan in cheap was literally "CHEAP" in the sense of quality and cost cutting.

And we thought cheap would stand for the price

Too bad they havent priced it well inspite of doing so much of cost cutting. I'm quite disappointed moreso maybe because I expected quite a bit from this car. Looks like Tata need not be a very worried lot atleast for now.

Though your review has summed it up excellently, I think I should still take a TD to experience what you did.
They seem to have taken cost cutting too seriously... I mean no carpetting or NVH substance around the engine bay is unforgivable for a diesel car. Its a clever marketing tactic, on the surface you seem to getting a car bigger than a fiesta or verna with equipment to boot but then they have cringed on a lot of things which wont be easily noticeable for indians as all we care for is how the car looks, whats the fuel average and whats the price and Logan does reasonably well in all the three areas.
And offcourse beige interiors for us means luxury... its evident that Mahindra is playing a very thought out game coz nowhere else the logan comes with beige interiors.
Lets see how the market responds... I for one as an enthisiast was very dissapointed.
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Old 18th April 2007, 13:59   #84
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w12, as steer said, escort was an all ford show. Mahindra's first car where they will do anything significant is the Logan.
I am not saying they will do a bad job, but the way the car is built according to the reports, it looks that they have cut corners even more than Tata.
Moreover the car has nothing special. It has a 65bhp engine, Tata has a 70bhp engine in a same price range and feature list(Indigo DICOR), you have Fiesta with ultra smooth 68 horses. One notch above you have the verna.
The Logan does not do anything better than these cars. So the only USP they could have had was lower cost, but thats not true, Mahindra could not really undercut Tata for all the hype they tried to create.
Tata has the taxi market, and Mahindra has alienated that lucrative segment so that it does not get taxi image. Indica/Indigo has taxi image, but does it impact their sales by a large margin? Nope. By doing this Mahindra has shot itself in the foot. Such things happen when the decision makers are isolated from ground realities.

Another factor which Mahindra forgets is that Tata cars sell 20,000 less than sticker price due to discounts, can Mahindra do that with a new car?

As for French reliability, JC likes bashing Peugeot and Renault, but the survey I am talking about is a public survey. JCs most hated cars Hyundai and Kia came out shining, along with the eastern European junk(According to Jeremy) Skoda.
Renault and Peugeot were the pits with most owners calling them junk.
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Old 18th April 2007, 14:04   #85
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Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
Lets see how the market responds... I for one as an enthisiast was very dissapointed.
But you're not their market!

Let us see. I cant see a lot of Taxi sales at 8 lakhs for a diesel, though - they'd much rather go for a base Innova or a Tavera.

Unless they have a special taxi price. Mahindra is good a leveraging government sales (just as HM is) and they have a lot of experience in fleet sales of Jeeps - I wouldnt be surprised if fleet sales receive HUGE discounts over the customer price.
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Old 18th April 2007, 14:09   #86
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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
But you're not their market!

Let us see. I cant see a lot of Taxi sales at 8 lakhs for a diesel, though - they'd much rather go for a base Innova or a Tavera.

Unless they have a special taxi price. Mahindra is good a leveraging government sales (just as HM is) and they have a lot of experience in fleet sales of Jeeps - I wouldnt be surprised if fleet sales receive HUGE discounts over the customer price.
Agreed and another reason for my dissapointment is that Mahindra might just get away with it... after all how many of us look whats beneath the surface
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Old 18th April 2007, 14:11   #87
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Splendid review, Extreme torque! Thats one of the most comprehensive so far. Superb observations. If the initial reviews are anything to go by, it will surely be a challenge for the Renault to succeed. Indians have just got more discerning due to the choice available, and no one likes the feeling of a cut-price car. Just look at how the base Innova flopped! Also, prestige is pretty important to some and the Logans reputation as a "cheap" car may put off some.

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Let us see. I cant see a lot of Taxi sales at 8 lakhs for a diesel, though -
The taxi operators will opt for the base 5 lac version, not the 8 lac fully-loaded Logan.
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Old 18th April 2007, 14:16   #88
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The taxi operators will opt for the base 5 lac version, not the 8 lac fully-loaded Logan.
They can't do that GTO, they have to buy 8Lac version. In india all taxis have to be white. Logan does not come in white in low end versions to prevent taxi owners buying it. thats what I meant by alienating that segment.
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Old 18th April 2007, 14:16   #89
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Renault and Peugeot were the pits with most owners calling them junk.
I agree. I nearly went in for the Laguna last year...thanks to Ajmat's warning I made some inquiries and owner feedback was scary as hell. Thanks to one bad experience in the past I decided to pay heed to the warning.

Please dont compare with Hyundai or Kia - for all their faults their quality levels are impeccably high.

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Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
In india all taxis have to be white.
Sez who? No such rule at least in Kerala. White is preferred because (1) its the cheapest color (2) easy on maintenance and repair. We have Maroon, Green, Gold and Blue Indica taxis and some colored Ikons and Accent CRDis in addition to Taveras and Qualises of various colors.

Last edited by Steeroid : 18th April 2007 at 14:21.
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Old 18th April 2007, 14:18   #90
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tsk1979,

lets wait & watch for market response..

besides a bloody war and bloodied noses of manufacturers is always good for us Consumers..so I am looking forward to a good slugfest between these two....

The french reliability - is a big question mark as you said..the Pal - Peugeot episode was a disaster..( but the peugeot ( diesel ) engines are extremely reliable )
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