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Old 9th July 2008, 15:32   #61
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oh boy oh boy, Looks like you have not sustained a lasting damage praise God.

That is indeed sobering news.

I agree the MJD does not stand "where you touch the brakes" unlike what is said about the earlier Palios.

Now review,
It skidded in a straight line ok was there a curve/camber on the road (it was downhill and a bend, afterall)? I know cars wont skid straight if you braked hard if the surface were sloping to one side of the road. This would tell us if the "cross braking" funda in palio works.

Should MJD drivers be prepared to do "engine braking" will this help the tires bite.

Talking about tires would another set other than stock have helped?

Any idea what your tire pressure was?

How did you manage to turn right? did you gain traction in the last few secs?
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Old 9th July 2008, 15:40   #62
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@diesel... 35-40 feet skid @ 60 kmph! Something somewhere is horribly wrong! The figures are hard to believe, a ~30 kmph reduction in speed in a span of 35-40 feet, braking from 60 kph!
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Old 9th July 2008, 15:55   #63
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Thank God you are safe and sound. I am not in favor of FIAT or as such but ANY car without ABS would behave same on a downhill on hard braking. Be it FIAT or any other make. So its not Palio at fault but the lack of ABS. Yes but your advice would certainly help fellow users while driving downhill.

I had gone through such emergency braking when a quails next to me suddenly stopped. I was at 40KMPH on a flat road and the quails was about 20-30 ft from me. I stopped just before 1/2 ft distance in 2-3 sec time. This happened at Thane - Mulund Est express highway.
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Old 9th July 2008, 16:01   #64
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Is it just possible that your car was running on over inflated tires.
Coming downhill the tires would have heated up and the psi gone up even more.

This would have reduced the traction quite a lot.

When was the last time your air preasure was checked?

anyways, thank god You made it safe.
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Old 9th July 2008, 16:47   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselbelly View Post

On a trip to kerala yesterday, i was coming down a small gradient at 60 kmph, when a truch was overtaking uphill around a bend. i saw the truck and applied brakes, and al the car did was to lock all wheels and skid down toward the truck.

In the 5-6 seconds all this took, all i could do was hold her in a straight line and as i saw the impact getting closer, i reflexively cut to the right, and the front left corner of the palio took the impact, and just crumpled al the way to the windsheld. LF door got jammed, however the rt side was intact, i was trown forward but the seat belt held me to the seat, the welt on my body will prove it. unfortunately, a suitcase came bursting out of the boot and took me on the back of my head, 4 stitches and one night in the ICU under observation. excaped without any other damages, must say GOD WAS THERE FOR ME .

Post mortem, the car just skidded for 30 - 35 feet, skid marks in a straight line down the middle of the road were visible. the impact must have happened around 25-40 kmph. and reduction in speed would have been not more than 30 kmph over 40 feet in 3-5 seconds. i had mentioned in my earlier post that ABS was sorely missed, i am sure with ABS, i would have been able to take the car to the left side, maybe even off the road, or else, would have been able to come to a full stop in that 40 feet. here i had no control over the car for the last 30 feet till impact.

My car looks like a total, but guys, please test your cars under emergency braking on a open road, preferably on a downhill, learn the limits of the car under emergency braking and it will surprise u how she will behave after the wheels lock. pls do this before u take a highway trip again.

And to fiat, pls provide ABS as an option, your car sure needs it, and i am a complete fan, really enjoyed the drive till the accident, and i will for sure buy a replacement mjd, but only if abs is a part of the package.
Hi dieselbelly its very luck that you escaped with minimal injuries... but do you think that jammingon you brakes like that would do you any good in a non ABS car?

And what was the ambient road conditions was it raining ?
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Old 10th July 2008, 00:11   #66
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Dieselbelly, I am really sorry to hear about the accident and the state of your car, but the important thing is that you are alive and in one piece to tell the tale. Praise the Almighty for that.

Are you sure the car's totalled? There's no hope? As of now, you would get a decent amount in insurance as well, since there won't be too much depreciation so far.

Immediately after reading your post today, I took my car to the Greater Noida Expressway. With my hazard warning lights on and after checking for no traffic, I tried to test my brakes.

It is very difficult to simulate a panic situation because the mind knows you are faking it.

But I did press the brakes hard, very hard. I tried 90 - 0 kph, 80 - 0 kph, 60 - 0 kph, 40 - 0 kph. 40 - 0 and 60 - 0 were very reassuring. No lateral movement, no locks, no skids, no wavering. 80 - 0 and 90 - 0 showed minor lateral diversions, but easily controlled by a firm grip on the wheel. The car did not skid, or lock, or leave tyre marks.

I had no way of measuring the braking time or distance, but the brakes seemed to be biting well and distances seemed good.

However, in my case (a) Road tarmac condition was good and dry (b) Very very gentle camber, just enough to drain the road, and not the kind of camber that is done on the hills to support turns (c) The steering wheel was straight at the time of applying the brakes and (d) No truck in front of me, hence no panic.

I am not sure I would have the same results in your situation. I don't even want to simulate them. The only thing all of us can do is try and maintain better safety margins and reaction times and distances.

One thing I have learnt from my biking days is to be very careful of the surface of the road, because that can kill you. In the monsoons (with the Zappers' infamous bad grip in the wet) I would often spend days where I hardly pressed the brakes, just touched them to slow down the bike.

The problem with cars is that they can often fool you into believing that it will stop / retain composure even when they won't in case of an emergency. Because of its constant feedback from the road, a bike gives a better idea of the road grip.

I hope you have many thousands of kilometres of safe driving in whatever car you go for next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselbelly View Post
i saw the truck and applied brakes, and al the car did was to lock all wheels and skid down toward the truck.

Post mortem, the car just skidded for 30 - 35 feet, skid marks in a straight line down the middle of the road were visible. the impact must have happened around 25-40 kmph. and reduction in speed would have been not more than 30 kmph over 40 feet in 3-5 seconds. i had mentioned in my earlier post that ABS was sorely missed, i am sure with ABS, i would have been able to take the car to the left side, maybe even off the road, or else, would have been able to come to a full stop in that 40 feet. here i had no control over the car for the last 30 feet till impact.
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Old 10th July 2008, 01:11   #67
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Before i bought my mjd, i had driven the dealers car, and on a brake test on a broken tarmac layout road, from 30 kmph the car had locked wheels fro the last 3 feet.

Then after i gor my car , simulated emergecy full stops from varying speeds, always resulted in a wheel lock for the last few feet.

Hence i upgraded from stock to michelein 185/70/r13 XM1's and maintaind TP of 30 PSI. This gave me greater confidence and relatively better braking feel.

On the day of the journey, i admit i had not checked tp, but the last check was done about 15 days before to 30 psi. hence the tyres could have only lost a few psi, and i do check each tyre / rim at every stop on a long distance , by hand, for excessive temp buildup etc. ( an old habit from my jeep days!!!). On that day , everything was normal, even heat buildup even at noon.

AS for the road, it was a newly laid section, no camber and no median, centre line marking, in fact later i felt that the surface was too smooth, esp for a ghat road. And it was not raining at the time.

So architect, its def odd that your car never has a wheel lock on simulated emergency braking,,,, even on the last 5 - 10 feet??? Or is something wrong with my car??? Some more feedback from other mjd owners will help. Neon wheels, did your car's wheels lock on the emergency braking from 40 KMPH??

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
@diesel... 35-40 feet skid @ 60 kmph! Something somewhere is horribly wrong! The figures are hard to believe, a ~30 kmph reduction in speed in a span of 35-40 feet, braking from 60 kph!
skid marks on the road were visible for around 30 -35 feet., it was a straight line becoz i was moving from the left of the road to the centre of the road and susequently to impact just across the centre of the road. The curve was a lefthander.

However i could have underestimated my speed by a max of 20 kmph and overestimated time by 2-3 seconds ... its hard to tell at the crutial moment, u got a million things running in your head.

as you can picture the momentum of the car was towards the right side of the road, the last reflexive turn of the steering did make the car turn a bit more before impact. hence the right side corner was not in contact with the truck.
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Old 10th July 2008, 01:50   #68
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Sorry about that Diesel, I hope you recover fast and get back to the steering.

Architect - nice write up. I will be testing the MJD today. Anything specifically I need to check during the TD? so that i can divert my mind from Getz GVS 1.1 and U-VA.

I have the same problem as you had - max budget is 5 lakhs.
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Old 10th July 2008, 11:29   #69
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dieselbelly,

sorry about the incident, hope you get back to normal soon..

even if it is a new car , pl get the aligment & weight balancing of the wheels at good tyre shopee.. 28 psi for 3 people is more than enough for a palio all models..

try to get a pressure guage which is calibarated well to check.. else get it checked at shell petrol pump outlets... all other bunks have ridiculous readings...if you say 30 psi , it might be 33psi.. i see this often in bangalore pumps.. shell outlet have correct calibrations...

i have slamed my brakes on mysore road at 100kmph, palio 1.2 ELX just brakes good & never a wheel lock..the only weak point is tyres... i say michelin XM1+1 is hard & has no tyre bulge on the side , this makes it even harsher while braking.
start from 26 uptil 30psi before you settle a correct tyre pressure..

try to get pete's air pressure check caps.. they are also calibrated realtively well..

FIAT, always...
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Old 10th July 2008, 11:49   #70
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@dieselbelly

that could be due to the xm1's as well since they lose grip suddenly when pushed too far and once the wheels lock up they dont do anything to retard speed. This hasnt happened to me yet but it happened once to my dad when he braked suddenly and wheels locked up and the car just hurtled towards a lorry that had suddenly cut in. Same 2 black lines on the road too.

The locking brakes has always been an issue with palio , at least with the 1.6 and I have kind of learnt to drive around it by braking gently and not slamming brakes so that it does not lock up. (Pumping brakes is an alternative too) but still in panic situations you dont always remember to do all this.

@architect,

simulations never work as far as a panic situation goes. even i tried braking at high speeds and wheels never locked up. need that adrenaline rushed slam to the pedals for it to happen

Last edited by bottle : 10th July 2008 at 11:53.
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Old 10th July 2008, 12:02   #71
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dieselbelly@ i dont think anythin is wrong with the car.Every car has different kind of brake feel
For example.The santro has super overservoed brakes.A little hard touch and the front wheels lock.
The zen at the same time wont lock its brakes that easily.
Minus ABS,its how the driver modulates the brake pedal to stop at the shortest possible distance at the same time be able to steer the vehicle.
In your case when u realised that your brakes have locked,u should have let the pedal go for a moment and again come over it and repeated this cycle.
Anyway, sorry to hear about the accident.Get well soon.
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Old 10th July 2008, 16:23   #72
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Architect:
I know my Palio 1.6 is flickable. If by flicking, you mean sharp quick turns taken at decent rate of speed. The first time I 'realized' this was when I was making a quick dash on a service lane when an Esteem burst into view out of nowhere (It was his fault - bugger coming into a road, be slow; bugger already on that road (me), can be fast). I flicked out of his way, avoiding a pedestrian in the process, shot a glare at the Esteem guy and scampered away.

The second instance involved less cowardly behavior on my part. I am driving down the Ring Road like a nice little boy when a scooter guy decides to suddenly changes lanes and place himself under my car's wheels. What the... And it all happened in 2-3 seconds. I flicked out of his way. I was muttering curses under my breath when the fellow has the cheek to slowly roll up next to me at the signal and try to admonish me. I blew him away totally. "aap ko chalana nahi aata hai to mere se door rahiye!!" and blah blah blah.

The thing is, with the windows up - both of us cant hear a word of what were are saying.

So yes, the Palio has a bit of body roll but it is flickable. And the car handled admirably during the heavy sudden downpours that Delhi's seeing nowadays. cheers: to that too.
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Old 11th July 2008, 00:24   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dieselbelly View Post
Before i bought my mjd, i had driven the dealers car, and on a brake test on a broken tarmac layout road, from 30 kmph the car had locked wheels fro the last 3 feet.

Then after i gor my car , simulated emergecy full stops from varying speeds, always resulted in a wheel lock for the last few feet.

Hence i upgraded from stock to michelein 185/70/r13 XM1's and maintaind TP of 30 PSI. This gave me greater confidence and relatively better braking feel.

So architect, its def odd that your car never has a wheel lock on simulated emergency braking,,,, even on the last 5 - 10 feet??? Or is something wrong with my car??? Some more feedback from other mjd owners will help. Neon wheels, did your car's wheels lock on the emergency braking from 40 KMPH??
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanjaymugur View Post
dieselbelly,

i have slamed my brakes on mysore road at 100kmph, palio 1.2 ELX just brakes good & never a wheel lock..the only weak point is tyres... i say michelin XM1+1 is hard & has no tyre bulge on the side , this makes it even harsher while braking.
start from 26 uptil 30psi before you settle a correct tyre pressure..
Quote:
Originally Posted by bottle View Post
@dieselbelly

that could be due to the xm1's as well since they lose grip suddenly when pushed too far and once the wheels lock up they dont do anything to retard speed. This hasnt happened to me yet but it happened once to my dad when he braked suddenly and wheels locked up and the car just hurtled towards a lorry that had suddenly cut in. Same 2 black lines on the road too.

The locking brakes has always been an issue with palio , at least with the 1.6 and I have kind of learnt to drive around it by braking gently and not slamming brakes so that it does not lock up. (Pumping brakes is an alternative too) but still in panic situations you dont always remember to do all this.

@architect,

simulations never work as far as a panic situation goes. even i tried braking at high speeds and wheels never locked up. need that adrenaline rushed slam to the pedals for it to happen
Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
dieselbelly@ i dont think anythin is wrong with the car.Every car has different kind of brake feel
For example.The santro has super overservoed brakes.A little hard touch and the front wheels lock.
The zen at the same time wont lock its brakes that easily.
Minus ABS,its how the driver modulates the brake pedal to stop at the shortest possible distance at the same time be able to steer the vehicle.
In your case when u realised that your brakes have locked,u should have let the pedal go for a moment and again come over it and repeated this cycle.
Anyway, sorry to hear about the accident.Get well soon.
Despite all post-mortem, we cannot recreate the scene, nor do we wish to do so. However, from these posts, the question is clear, was it the tyres which was the culprit? Or the way you operated the brakes when you panicked?

Well, to be honest, I can't be 100% sure if my wheels locked or not. Maybe they did for the last foot or so only but not 10 feet!!. However, I am sure it did not lock at all 40-0 or 60-0 and braking was well within 3-4 secs. But still, my funda of braking is to jam hard, slow down, and then jam hard again. Its reflex action. Maybe I won't do so when I am panicking. Read my four points a-d again as to the conditions when I braked... and yes, I am running on stock pressed steel 165/80/R13 Goodyear tubeless GPS 2.

If it was the tyres, then how does that happen. Was it over-inflated? Does a comfort tyre (like the Michelin XM1) brake worse than a handling tyre (Yokohama ES)? How does the standard GoodYear GPS 2 tubeless fare on that front?

Sorry to post-mortem, but I don't want any unfair analysis of a car's braking behaviour if its the fault of the tyres (and non-stock ones at that).

You are safe, and that matters the most. However, I still think that selling a car, ANY CAR, without ABS in today's scenario is NOT DONE. The difficult thing for me was that there was no car except the Swift VXi with ABS in my budget. And I could have only done less than half of the driving I do on my MJD to be able to manage with its FE and Petrol prices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arajand View Post
Architect:
I know my Palio 1.6 is flickable. If by flicking, you mean sharp quick turns taken at decent rate of speed. So yes, the Palio has a bit of body roll but it is flickable.
Okay Boss, accepted that the Palio is flickable. However, a small point which may or may not affect the Palio Stile's handling: The Palio Stile 1.6 and the Palio MJD have a stabilising bar in the front which the Stile 1.1 does not have, as per the brochure.

Body Roll is there. More than the Swift.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsaLove View Post
Sorry about that Diesel, I hope you recover fast and get back to the steering.

Architect - nice write up. I will be testing the MJD today. Anything specifically I need to check during the TD? so that i can divert my mind from Getz GVS 1.1 and U-VA.

I have the same problem as you had - max budget is 5 lakhs.
@CorsaLove, there is a whole thread devoted to TD with all the info. However, if you are an experienced and a discerning driver, you will be able to figure out things quickly.

Another thing, if you are a real Corsa Lover, you will like the Fiat's build quality. That ways, all European origin cars have some similar qualities. They may not have the lightest steering or clutches or gearshifts, but they do make you feel safer because of the famous reassuring thud of the doors!

Personally, the Getz 1.1 GVS is not such a great car performance-wise. Even its FE suffers because you tend to press the accelarator more to get that epsilon to move a heavier car. Same problem with the Palio Stile 1.1. In my TD, I found the Getz 1.1 peppier than the Palio 1.1, but that's another debate. U-VA I am not too sure. Comparing these two to the MJD is not fair comparison either.

A turbo-diesel is a different experience altogether. It grows on you. And this side of 5.10 lakhs, the MJD SDE version is a very good deal. It has a little better equipment level than the Swift LDi as well (tachometer, fog lamps and front power windows, especially)
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Old 11th July 2008, 00:36   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by architect View Post
A turbo-diesel is a different experience altogether. It grows on you. And this side of 5.10 lakhs, the MJD SDE version is a very good deal. It has a little better equipment level than the Swift LDi as well (tachometer, fog lamps and front power windows, especially)
Architect - I loved the TD of the MJD today. But it is very hard for me to say that I had to drop it from my list Here are some of the cons why:

1) Interiors are not my type (very bad actually) After driving all luxury cars for over 5 years now, i dont think i can make do with it.
2) Waiting period for the SDE is 6 weeks in Bangalore (checked with both dealers Concorde and Manipal)
3) AND THE BIGGEST DRAW BACK - 5.34 lakhs ON ROAD. This is the highest in the country due to Karnataka state road tax.

I cannot strech above 5 lakhs right now due to many personal commitments as i exxplained in another thread. Seconly, this is going to be the second car in the house after Jan 09 as I'm planning on the CRV by then.

Thanks for your suggestions and will let you know what I end up with
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Old 11th July 2008, 07:40   #75
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Corsalove,

While I can understand your logic on interiors (they ARE dated and only appeal to a section), your logic on trashing SDE because of 34k over budget. Sounds strange coming from the same gent whose planning a CRV. 34k extra over how many years? and that 34k is just 4-4.5k km of driving on the CRV.

If anything, I find it hard to beleive money can be a constraint
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