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Old 30th January 2009, 23:13   #151
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Look at CR-V gen 1 and 2. This is an upgrade of generation keeping the same lines and everyone happy.

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In third they create new lines and that looks even better so everyone happy again. Its nothing to be worried to much about. So lets enjoy Altis.

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Old 31st January 2009, 18:15   #152
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Originally Posted by Ym-enjn View Post
So there’s the point, if they don't want to take Corolla onto the 19 Lakhs price range
It's ridiculous to think of a 19 lakh Corolla . The only reason Skoda could do it was because of their DSG, trim level, Euro build quality and diesel engine. Not to mention, unfortunately, the Indian buyer sees Skoda as more of a premium brand than Honda or Toyota. Talk Accord + Camry at 19 lakhs, but lets not even get into a new gen Corolla for that price. However good it may be.

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and want to give more at that same price than what they have done is a great job. Its a new car, bigger on length and width. Height is less. Inside space is more. Design is different, features and comfort is different. Things are similar but almost everything is different, even the rear glass and roof top in photo above is different.
Correct. But why not give it a distinct identity rather than have many (including owners & reviewers) complain about the abundant similarity. The new Camry is entirely different from the previous one, so are the Accord, Civic and all other cars from Toyota & Honda in the recent past. The Altis is the ONLY exception to the rule in the last 15 years. Even for Toyota and across their mass-selling model range. How do you explain that?

Look at this example

The 8th gen Corolla
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The 9th gen Corolla
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You think anyone complained of similarity here? Fat chance! The fact is : The 10th gen is NOT as much a leap ahead, as the 9th was over the 8th.

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Agreed, borrowed many looks from previous generation even the engine is same so that shows that it is done deliberately.
Of course its done deliberately. To save development costs! Lack of innovation borders on boring, something that Toyota is very worried about. Read up on business case studies on Toyota...they are concerned that the average age of the Toyota buyer is much higher than that of Honda. And such overwhelming similarity between an outgoing and supposedly all new generation is not going to help the cause.

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We must remember that they have not given it a new brand name and haven't charged a premium on it by presenting it as a better and bigger car. They simply say its your New Corolla at same price.
Correction. To differentiate between the two, the Altis brand was adopted. And no, they couldn’t get away with pricing it too much higher anyways. Just ask Honda Civic.

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
I rest my case. Even the hallowed BMWs and Mercs are not entirely immune to the fact that sometimes retaining a family look may be a good thing.
Obviously there is some confusion. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. As per your BMW example, the 2007, 2008 & 2009 BMWs are the SAME generation (2009 is a mere facelift). However, the Altis over the previous Corolla is NOT the same generation NOR is it a facelift. It is supposed to be an all-new generation. Never have two generations of the Corolla been so similar, search around to see the criticism (globally) of the overwhelming similarity between the 9th & 10th gens.

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I could spot a Beemer from a distance but upon looking at it closely wouldnt be able to tell the difference between immediately preceding model and the current one.
If you cant tell the difference between the current and previous generations of the 3 & 5 series, I can assure you that you are part of the minority.

The E34
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The E90
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The E39
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The E60
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Just one of the many examples of retaining a family look, yet giving it distinct identity. This is what you call "all new".

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was the rather dowdy look of the previous model. The new Camry came in as a drool worthy machine.
I actually loved the look of the older ship-like Camry as well. And so did the masses. That’s precisely why it was the best selling Camry ever for more than just a year. Either ways, looks are subjective. What matter is that the new Camry has an entirely distinct identity compared to the old Camry. No one complained of similarity here.

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My family and I were very happy when I bought the 9G and happier still when I bought the Altis. If positive emotions combined with a big dash of Toyota nostalgia, excellent sales & service and bullet proof reliability (arguably more than the German cars) are good enough reasons, then I may buy another Toyota all over again.
Absolutely. That’s why Honda & Toyota have amongst the highest brand loyalty.
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Old 31st January 2009, 18:36   #153
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Obviously there is some confusion. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. As per your BMW example, the 2007, 2008 & 2009 BMWs are the SAME generation (2009 is a mere facelift). However, the Altis over the previous Corolla is NOT the same generation NOR is it a facelift. It is supposed to be an all-new generation. Never have two generations of the Corolla been so similar, search around to see the criticism (globally) of the overwhelming similarity between the 9th & 10th gens.

If you cant tell the difference between the current and previous generations of the 3 & 5 series, I can assure you that you are part of the minority.

Absolutely. That’s why Honda & Toyota have amongst the highest brand loyalty.
You probably misunderstood what I was trying to say. What I was saying is that looking at the rooflines using a birds eye view photo will make it difficult for most people to identify 2 generations of cars. The Beemer photos you posted are face on! Please upload face-on photos of the 9G and 10G Corollas and see if they look undistinguishable. Also, I do read around other international fora on toyotas...am also a member on 2 of them. There have been comments about similarities...but then they say beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. Dont see anything wrong with that.

Admittedly I am possibly not as knowledgeable as most on this forum about BMW car generations. Do excuse me for that. But enthu as I am about cars, peering at rooflines is not the standard way to identify vehicles unless you are a low flying aircraft or hot air balloon pilot. Hope you understood what I am trying to say this time around.

Cheers!
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Old 31st January 2009, 19:05   #154
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Honda has been down the same path before in the 1995 Civic and the 2000 civic. Very mild differences.

Toyota Altis - Test Drive-1996hondacivicsedan.jpg

Toyota Altis - Test Drive-20012003_honda_civic_sedan.jpg

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Toyota Altis - Test Drive-9698_honda_civic_sedan.jpg
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Old 31st January 2009, 19:19   #155
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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
You probably misunderstood what I was trying to say. What I was saying is that looking at the rooflines using a birds eye view photo will make it difficult for most people to identify 2 generations of cars.
You bet, clarity of statement would be appreciated. Your exact post was:

Quote:
Even the hallowed BMWs and Mercs are not entirely immune to the fact that sometimes retaining a family look may be a good thing. I could spot a Beemer from a distance but upon looking at it closely wouldnt be able to tell the difference between immediately preceding model and the current one.
Now, where do we see the point where you were talking about the birds eye view exclusively? Last I checked, we were posting on different generations maintaining the family look & design. We can safely presume that family looks don't include the roof only! Even Ym-enjn in his response has posted front 3 quarter views of the CRV!

Plus, my reply was so obviously in response to your comparo of the 2007 - 2008 - 2009 BMWs which are the same E90 platform and NOT a new generation. The '09 is a mere facelift. Everyone knows facelifts are similar, so there is no value in a comment that states:

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Can you also put a birds eye photo of the new 2009 BMW 3 series and previous, say the 2007 or 2008, model on this site and pose the same question to the members of this forum.
Identical I say! Apples to apples, R2D2. I posted a picture of two separate gens. The 2008 & 2009 3 series are practically the same car!

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Please upload face-on photos of the 9G and 10G Corollas and see if they look undistinguishable.
While the front & rear ends are so obviously distinguishable, the overwhelming similar in profile, greenhouse area and side profiles are obvious. That's not my opinion only, it is the that of the masses.

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There have been comments about similarities...but then they say beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder.
Of course it does. There are people who even find a Mahindra Armada beautiful.

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peering at rooflines is not the standard way to identify vehicles unless you are a low flying aircraft or hot air balloon pilot.
Did anyone state anywhere that it was supposed to be the standard view point? You'd do yourself a favour by not assuming. The reason behind the roofline pictures:

- Rare to catch two gens side by side, and from that view.
- The overwhelming similarity, from yet another angle, between two generations.
- We have had several discussion on prior occasion of the similarity between the Corolla & Altis. This was only to illustrate that point further.
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Old 31st January 2009, 19:45   #156
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
You bet, clarity of statement would be appreciated. Your exact post was:



Now, where do we see the point where you were talking about the birds eye view exclusively? Last I checked, we were posting on different generations maintaining the family look & design. We can safely presume that family looks don't include the roof only! Even Ym-enjn in his response has posted front 3 quarter views of the CRV!

Plus, my reply was so obviously in response to your comparo of the 2007 - 2008 - 2009 BMWs which are the same E90 platform and NOT a new generation. The '09 is a mere facelift. Everyone knows facelifts are similar, so there is no value in a comment that states:



Identical I say! Apples to apples, R2D2. I posted a picture of two separate gens. The 2008 & 2009 3 series are practically the same car!



While the front & rear ends are so obviously distinguishable, the overwhelming similar in profile, greenhouse area and side profiles are obvious. That's not my opinion only, it is the that of the masses.



Of course it does. There are people who even find a Mahindra Armada beautiful.



Did anyone state anywhere that it was supposed to be the standard view point? You'd do yourself a favour by not assuming. The reason behind the roofline pictures:

- Rare to catch two gens side by side, and from that view.
- The overwhelming similarity, from yet another angle, between two generations.
- We have had several discussion on prior occasion of the similarity between the Corolla & Altis. This was only to illustrate that point further.
Thanks for letting me know what is a new gen BMW and a facelift. I havent followed those models too closely. May be I should now.

I picked up on the thread that you posted of the rooflines and you may have noticed it is the post I was responding to by identifying the 9G and 10G car. The idea wasnt to get into an argument or debate or whether a comment from me adds value or if I am making an assumption. It was just a thought that I shared and you're probably being judgemental. Not what I'd expect from a moderator.

Thanks,
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Old 31st January 2009, 23:15   #157
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Well One question to GTO. I know you are Civic fan. Would you like Honda to forget everything about the ongoing Civic and make a totally different car and name it Civic in Next generation, say next year. They might loose all its so called 'sport nature' and make it a more luxury car, or take lines from new Accord or from ANHC. But no lines from current Civic, simply nothing, may be make it more curvy or make it taller, anything but different.

I hope not. You would say, along with all Civic fans that its the best design on earth. Design something we can identify with this Civic. (if not then at least I'll say so) So is Corolla. Its not just another Civic, Focus or Harry. Its COROLLA. Biggest brand, worlds largest selling car. They just did justification to their fans. 100s of 9G owners switching to 10G happily, but how many NHC changing to ANHC.. Toyota is not Toyota for nothing. When you live with Altis, it proves its intelligence.

PS: I feel it’s a healthy discussion, just difference in opinions.

@R2D2- Civic now hands down in front of Altis, now only a Corolla can challenge Corolla. The medal is anyhow coming to us. (Funintended) And speak freely they wont delete your ID if you argue with a moderator. And a moderator also has the right to speak freely..

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Old 1st February 2009, 01:32   #158
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Originally Posted by Ym-enjn View Post
@R2D2-And speak freely they wont delete your ID if you argue with a moderator. And a moderator also has the right to speak freely..
I am a Honda fan too...but Toyota holds a special place in my heart for reasons I've mentioned before.

Ym-enjn, I joined this forum to read others' views and help them where I can. I have been driving for 24+ years and a hands on person having repaired and maintained bikes, cars as also electronics/PCs. Even worked in a friends garage during my college summer vacations. Was also the moderator/sys-op of a BBS (the ancestor of todays internet based forums) and an ISP back in the mid 90s at the dawn of the internet age in this country.

Whilst at the Toyota dealer today, I spoke with the Customer Relationship manager about TBHP and requested her to take a look at posts on this forum.

I am sure all the mods here are cool guys in their own right. Everyone here has a right to express their opinion and everyone means well. But the day I feel someone is being haughty and/or condescending by virtue of being a mod or pretending to be a so called 'authority-on-all-things-automotive' on this forum, is the day I have to begin visiting more democratic fora, albeit foreign, on the internet.

I hope it doesnt come to that as so far I have quite enjoyed being here.

Cheers!
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Old 1st February 2009, 20:57   #159
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Originally Posted by vid6639 View Post
Honda has been down the same path before in the 1995 Civic and the 2000 civic. Very mild differences.
Boring & indistinguishable if I ever saw one. The '92 - '93 Civics looked better with their slimmer headlights and were the taste of the month when the Fast&Furious phenomena spilled over to the streets. But yes, the examples you posted are absolutely applicable to this debate.

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Originally Posted by Ym-enjn View Post
Well One question to GTO. I know you are Civic fan.
Sighhhhh....why is it that criticising a certain aspect of one brand automatically makes you a fan of the other? A request : Lets not go down that alley. Team-BHP is far more mature than that. Look at any of my posts & threads, I do not beat around the bush and don't hesitate before calling a spade a spade. Team-BHP is built on an unbiased platform and we do everything we can to be neutral. Don't expect me to blindly favour any brand. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am AS MUCH a Toyota fan as Honda. And I do recommend the Altis to more people than I do the Civic, primarily because it is a more practical car (though I'd personally buy a Civic for its high-revving on-the-edge nature). Even in the cars that I love / own, I am absolutely transparent / vocal / honest in outlining their pros & cons.

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Would you like Honda to forget everything about the ongoing Civic and make a totally different car and name it Civic
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But no lines from current Civic, simply nothing, may be make it more curvy or make it taller, anything but different.
Honda alongwith Toyota has been doing it with each generation so far. I don't see why the 9th gen should be an example....its not like the car is a Rolls in disguise. Well, atleast most of their new generations have been an ENTIRELY different platform. This is one of the rare times that such an overwhelmingly high level of similarity has shown up between two generations. Don't get me wrong, I think the Altis is a fantastic car. But Toyota haven't done everything that they could. The 9th gen was a bigger leap ahead (compared to the 8th gen) than the 10th gen is (compared to the 9th). One of the first reviewers of the 10th gen was Motor Trend who commented that it looks identical to the 9th gen. And that comment was made in a negative tone.

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They might loose all its so called 'sport nature' and make it a more luxury car
Actually, the Civic & Corolla aim to get bigger / more luxurious each year. The Corollas of today are as big as the Camrys of yesteryear were. Ditto for the Civic to the late 80's Accord.

Also, it is imperative to add that just because you design an entirely new generation doesn't mean you lose the core qualities of the outgoing. E.g. : The new C Class. Or lower down the food chain, the Indica Vista. Or to take an example from Toyotas lineup : The Camry, Innova or 9th Gen corolla to 8th Gen Corolla. Same core values.

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And a moderator also has the right to speak freely..
Thank you for understanding our position.

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
Not what I'd expect from a moderator.
I am going to have to ask you to watch what you type. Just because my account wears a moderator badge doesn't take away any of my rights to "speak freely", to quote Ym-enjn. Nowhere in this discussion have you been warned, your post edited, or an infraction delivered. Period. Thus, I don't see where my modship comes into the picture here.

Also, I advice you that any public discussion on Team-BHPs moderators / moderator activities are strictly prohibited. If you have any issues or require clarifications, feel free to use the Contact Us form.

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you're probably being judgemental.
Funny you say that. After typing the following post!

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Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
But the day I feel someone is being haughty and/or condescending by virtue of being a mod or pretending to be a so called 'authority-on-all-things-automotive' on this forum........
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I hope it doesnt come to that as so far I have quite enjoyed being here.
And we have enjoyed your stay with us just as well. Hope it doesn't go too far either, even if for reasons outside of our scope of understanding.
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Old 1st February 2009, 21:19   #160
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I am going to have to ask you to watch what you type. Just because my account wears a moderator badge doesn't take away any of my rights to "speak freely", to quote Ym-enjn. Nowhere in this discussion have you been warned, your post edited, or an infraction delivered. Period. Thus, I don't see where my modship comes into the picture here.

Also, I advice you that any public discussion on Team-BHPs moderators / moderator activities are strictly prohibited. If you have any issues or require clarifications, feel free to use the Contact Us form.

Funny you say that. After typing the following post!

And we have enjoyed your stay with us just as well. Hope it doesn't go too far either, even if for reasons outside of our scope of understanding.
Right. Thanks for all the clarifications GTO. I admit being a bit riled earlier. Let's leave it at that shall we? Thanks.
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Old 2nd February 2009, 12:20   #161
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Folks, I don't intend to start another Altis Vs Civic debate, but I was surprised to read in the Jan edition of AutoCar that someone found the Altis more rev-happy than the Civic. This is in utter contradiction to what I've learnt from the various posts on this forum.
I don't own either car, but the article said that a Civic owner was surprised with the pick up and speeds an Altis could do, which his Civic could not do. I believe he thought the speedo was wrong as it showed a reading of 160 kmph, while it did not feel like it at all.
I can accept a biased report from the guy writing the article (most auto mags have such prejudiced guys), but quoting a user of a rival product into accepting the Altis to be better than the Civic on certain aspects like rev-happiness and 'sudden whoosh of speed' are carrying things too far. What do you say?
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Old 2nd February 2009, 12:36   #162
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vnabhi, that was just a writer's column and not a review at all. I read it as well. He only says that the Altis was a more relaxed more cruiser which masked the speed very well. He was doing 160kmph and it felt like 100kmph to him and the car was easier to drive.

That could be because the Altis feels more torquier. You'll notice this in some diesels as well. There's so much torque that you don't need to rev the engine to reach speeds. You think your doing 80kmph till you see the speedo show 120kmph.

The honda loves to be revved and when you rev it will obviously not be relaxed cruising. Hence the misconception.
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Old 2nd February 2009, 13:53   #163
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Originally Posted by vnabhi View Post
Folks, I don't intend to start another Altis Vs Civic debate, but I was surprised to read in the Jan edition of AutoCar that someone found the Altis more rev-happy than the Civic. This is in utter contradiction to what I've learnt from the various posts on this forum.
I don't own either car, but the article said that a Civic owner was surprised with the pick up and speeds an Altis could do, which his Civic could not do. I believe he thought the speedo was wrong as it showed a reading of 160 kmph, while it did not feel like it at all.
I can accept a biased report from the guy writing the article (most auto mags have such prejudiced guys), but quoting a user of a rival product into accepting the Altis to be better than the Civic on certain aspects like rev-happiness and 'sudden whoosh of speed' are carrying things too far. What do you say?
I haven't hit the highway yet, but in city the car is happy to go over 100kmph without effort, every now and then, and I know it when I look at speedo, otherwise it just feels like 60 or 70. In other cars I have driven the roads seems to be too short to reach 100 (including Civic Auto and my ford Ikon).

There is a flyover on my regular way from gym for which I have to take a U turn to get on it, a busy big road. After the U-turn on the climb my initial speed is almost 0. Within seconds, believe me, very fast, its 80kmph (effortless) and I can see whole trafic way behind me. I don't high rev either there because the current average drops between 2 and 4 kmpl.
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Old 2nd February 2009, 14:38   #164
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vnabhi, that was just a writer's column and not a review at all. I read it as well. He only says that the Altis was a more relaxed more cruiser which masked the speed very well. He was doing 160kmph and it felt like 100kmph to him and the car was easier to drive.

That could be because the Altis feels more torquier. You'll notice this in some diesels as well. There's so much torque that you don't need to rev the engine to reach speeds. You think your doing 80kmph till you see the speedo show 120kmph.

The honda loves to be revved and when you rev it will obviously not be relaxed cruising. Hence the misconception.
Thanks, but 160 kmph for 'cruising' seems to be an overkill.

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Originally Posted by Ym-enjn View Post
I haven't hit the highway yet, but in city the car is happy to go over 100kmph without effort, every now and then, and I know it when I look at speedo, otherwise it just feels like 60 or 70. In other cars I have driven the roads seems to be too short to reach 100 (including Civic Auto and my ford Ikon).

There is a flyover on my regular way from gym for which I have to take a U turn to get on it, a busy big road. After the U-turn on the climb my initial speed is almost 0. Within seconds, believe me, very fast, its 80kmph (effortless) and I can see whole trafic way behind me. I don't high rev either there because the current average drops between 2 and 4 kmpl.
Great to know about this. Another feather in its cap then!
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Old 2nd February 2009, 14:50   #165
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Thanks, but 160 kmph for 'cruising' seems to be an overkill.
Yes it does but remember that he did not feel that he was doing 160kmph, he thought it was only 100-120kmph.

The toyota is easier to drive because of the better driveability. You can shift at less than 2000rpm and it will pull cleanly away. Whereas if you rev it to like 5500rpm or above and shift your wasting your time.

That's where the Honda scores. If you drive the honda changing gears at 2000rpm it's nothing but sacrilege. You will get dismal performance if driven that way and the honda will feel slower than the Toyota. You have to red line a honda, feel the vtec kicking in and the engine note. That's when you feel the true performance of a honda engine.
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