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Old 19th November 2008, 17:42   #331
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Originally Posted by MACH50
Well Honda has released the jewel of a car. The car is agressively styled with an equally agressive engine.The car is both fuel efficient as usual and now has a very good preformance at 110hp
Agree with the "aggressive styling" part, the "aggressive engine" part and the "v.g.performance" part. But hello, where did you get the "fuel efficient as usual" part from ?

And when you say "as usual", are you implying that this car is as FE as the NHC-iDSi ? While the latter had FE as its USP, with power at a mere 76-bhp, here we are talking about 34bhp more. And nothing could be further from the truth than saying that the FE returned would be same.

Let us wait for ownership reviews on the forum before jumping to the wrong conclusions.
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Old 19th November 2008, 19:07   #332
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Hi All,
This is my first post. I booked one S-MT on the second day of the launch. Later I felt, it will be better an automatic version in Bangalore City and I called them to change my decision of buying MT. The color I booked is Black which they informed will be ready only by end of January.
The only thing missing is, no idea about the FE. Dakshin Honda (where I booked) told me, MT gives 14-16 in city and 17-19 in Highway for Manual version. AT version, they said, max 2km less.
Look, I have no clue about this new Honda City, but the old one(automatic) did not give more than 10 or 11 . Automatic is the right car to buy in Bangalore..make no mistake about it.
Go ahead and I don't think you will regret this.
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Old 19th November 2008, 19:24   #333
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Dude when you have taken such a wise decision to go for an automatic in Indian driving conditions (which actually warrant an automatic), I would say, please dont get scared about a lil mileage difference. Please rate your own convinience higher than a 2 km FE drop over manual transmission.
Thanks. I think, what you said is correct. I need to think of the convenience more than that 2kmpl. I hope, it will give the same FE of old automatic version.
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Look, I have no clue about this new Honda City, but the old one(automatic) did not give more than 10 or 11 . Automatic is the right car to buy in Bangalore..make no mistake about it.
Yea, I drive 22+22km per day. And it normally takes minimum of 45-50 min to reach the destination.
One more thing I would like to know. What exactly Paddle Shift? Is it the gear itself which you can change manually like a manual car or is it something else?
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Old 19th November 2008, 19:51   #334
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Originally Posted by pjordy View Post
One more thing I would like to know. What exactly Paddle Shift? Is it the gear itself which you can change manually like a manual car or is it something else?
In cars with paddle shifters, there are two 'paddles' mounted on the back side of the steering wheel. One is for upshifting, the other, downshifting. It shifts your transmission electronically with the paddles rather than a mechanical connection beside the seat.
You can even check this link Semi-automatic transmission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last edited by harry10 : 19th November 2008 at 19:53.
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Old 19th November 2008, 20:10   #335
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In cars with paddle shifters, there are two 'paddles' mounted on the back side of the steering wheel. One is for upshifting, the other, downshifting. It shifts your transmission electronically with the paddles rather than a mechanical connection beside the seat.
You can even check this link Semi-automatic transmission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Just want to know whether it works like manual gear shifting? Somebody in the dealership said, if you upshift, the vehicle's speed will increase. Is that means, we are actually moving the gear? If that's the case, we can get the same mileage like a manual car with this paddle shifts, right? I may be wrong, just trying to understand the use of it.. Anyway, I'll read Wikipedia and try to understand that..
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Old 19th November 2008, 20:55   #336
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Ok here is my attempt at paddleshift, experts can chip in, fundamental priciples of Autmatic:

1) Put the car in drive mode and no need to change the gears. No clutch. Just step on the accerlator and brake when desired. Almost like a Kinetic Honda.

In this scenario the car autmatically changes the gear based on your acceraltor feedback. A spirited push in the pedal and the car holds the gear till higher RPMs. A gentle push and the car gives more mileage and changes the gear to a higher gear. The drawback being in Indian scenario, with so many stop and go's car is stuck at lower gear (1st or 2nd) than a manual car which Indians most like would be running on 2nd or 3rd at the same speed.


2) Sports Mode/Overdrive Mode: Some automatics have a Sports Mode or an Overdrive mode for spirited drive. Here the car changes gear at a higher RPM than regular drive mode. This means less FE, but means more spirited drive.

3) Newer Automatics have Semi-Automatic Mode in two ways:

a) With a + and - in the gear shift (like the new Corrola or Mazda 6) Here what you do is that you select the semi-automatic drive mode. You than select the gear by pulling the gear lever upwards or downwards. Mind you there is no clutch involved. Only thing is that you dictate when to change the gear. So if you forget the car can be running on 3rd even if the speed warrant the 5th gear. However if you brake suddenly or go through traffic the car automatically downshifts the gear. Again this results in lower FE compared to manual counterpart as most people with manual would leave a row revving car on 2nd gear, but autmatic/semi-automatic car would revv in first gear, since its being governed by a computer thats tuned to downshift a gear at a certain RPM. Upshifts are controlled by user in this scenario.

Here is a picture depicting this kind of transmission:

http://www.2carpros.com/images-1/aut...on_shifter.gif

b) Paddle Shifts: Kind find on F1 cars, Honda Civic and now Honda City. You have two levers behind the steering wheel. Put the car in semi-automatic mode, and than upshift the gear using your right hand by pulling the level towards you. Or downshift using your left hand. Upshifts are governed by you, downshifts too can be governed by you, but if you are too slow for the gear, the car CPU would take over and put the car in a smaller gear. Again potential loss of FE as the CPU would be governed by RPM limit of the car on low RPM and you cant override it.

Here is a picture depicting this kind of transmission:

http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/mod...3Acura_CSX.jpg

http://images.paultan.org/uploads/20...vic_paddle.jpg

Look closely at the plastic behind the steering wheel those are the paddle shifts.


All cars with paddle shift or any other sort of semi-automatic arrangement have fully auto setup as well. These cars are clutchless. The best advantage of paddle shift isit makes the automatic fun to drive when you can revv the car till the red line before changing the gear.

Last edited by aseem : 19th November 2008 at 21:01.
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Old 20th November 2008, 21:13   #337
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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
b) Paddle Shifts: Kind find on F1 cars, Honda Civic and now Honda City. You have two levers behind the steering wheel. Put the car in semi-automatic mode, and than upshift the gear using your right hand by pulling the level towards you. Or downshift using your left hand. Upshifts are governed by you, downshifts too can be governed by you, but if you are too slow for the gear, the car CPU would take over and put the car in a smaller gear. Again potential loss of FE as the CPU would be governed by RPM limit of the car on low RPM and you cant override it.
Thanks a lot. It was a great explanation. If you don't allow the CPU to take over, I mean, if you change the gear whenever required, do you get better FE? I hope, if you use paddle shifts, the FE will be better than automatic mode, right?
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Old 21st November 2008, 09:46   #338
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Originally Posted by pjordy View Post
Thanks a lot. It was a great explanation. If you don't allow the CPU to take over, I mean, if you change the gear whenever required, do you get better FE? I hope, if you use paddle shifts, the FE will be better than automatic mode, right?
Probably, I am yet to own a car with paddle shift, though I have driven several. The automatic I had in US, I never cared to clock the mileage. Since measuring FE doesnt increase it

The important point to note here is, that one can drive the car without AC, and get approximately 20% more FE, but how many of us do that once we have got used to cars with AC? Very Few...
Similarly once you drive an automatic, and see its sheer convinience in City traffic, you'd be happy to spend that money on yourself.

To put the argument more subtly. Would you pay 100 Rs less per person or 400 Rs less per family to watch a movie in a regular Cinema, with shoddy crowd, bad seats, and no AC.
Or would you rather pay more and enjoy the same movie (mind you its the same movie) in a Multiplex?

Similarly for the same commute when you have an AC car with Automatic transmission, it makes your experience well worth it.

Now go enjoy that Pop Corn, I mean the automatic tranny
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Old 21st November 2008, 10:06   #339
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Aseem,

For me the advantage of paddle shfits lies not in the ability to redline in a gear, but in it's ability to simulate "cause-effect" relationship of the manual. In manual and with the paddles, the driver provides the input for gear change and the car follows. In fully automatic mode, the driver keeps the accelrator pressed and then one fine moment, suddenly the car upshifts...

The only problem (for me) with Honda's paddle shifers is - unlike the wiper and headlight levers, the paddles turn with the steering. That's ridiculous - makes it difficult to swiftly upshift/downshift on winding roads - something that I am very fond of in my manual...
I prefer the semi-automatic mode of Laura: just tap the gear level by your left hand and the car shifts. Even when you are taking a hair-pin bend, the position of the gear lever is constant. (of course, for those who only upshift/downshift while in a straight line, this makes little difference).

May be - the steering mounted paddles work well in F1 like situation where the lock to lock turn of the steering is not big, and hence paddles don't move much!
Cheers,
Anand

Last edited by anandpadhye : 21st November 2008 at 10:08.
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Old 21st November 2008, 10:20   #340
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Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
The only problem (for me) with Honda's paddle shifers is - unlike the wiper and headlight levers, the paddles turn with the steering. That's ridiculous
I didn't know that (my ignorance, not seen the car). I agree. That is indeed ridiculous and useless.
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Old 21st November 2008, 11:10   #341
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Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
Aseem,

For me the advantage of paddle shfits lies not in the ability to redline in a gear, but in it's ability to simulate "cause-effect" relationship of the manual. In manual and with the paddles, the driver provides the input for gear change and the car follows. In fully automatic mode, the driver keeps the accelrator pressed and then one fine moment, suddenly the car upshifts...

The only problem (for me) with Honda's paddle shifers is - unlike the wiper and headlight levers, the paddles turn with the steering. That's ridiculous - makes it difficult to swiftly upshift/downshift on winding roads - something that I am very fond of in my manual...
I prefer the semi-automatic mode of Laura: just tap the gear level by your left hand and the car shifts. Even when you are taking a hair-pin bend, the position of the gear lever is constant. (of course, for those who only upshift/downshift while in a straight line, this makes little difference).

May be - the steering mounted paddles work well in F1 like situation where the lock to lock turn of the steering is not big, and hence paddles don't move much!
Cheers,
Anand
I disagree, maybe it takes getting used too. Firstly, all paddle shifts turn with the steering, and thats how they should be. Secondaly, having driven an automatic for over 100,000 miles, I am qualified to say that one can easily predict the gear changes in an automatic based on your gas pedal input. Its not like turbo kicking in, where things happen in an unpredictable manner. Automatics are rather very predictable imho. Thirdly its very very easy to downshift or upshift while negotiating a turn. I did it easily in my drive in Denver. I also do it routinely while playing GTR2 on my Logitech G25 steering (it has a 900 degree lock to lock).

On the other hand I found it a lot harder to drive a Mazda 6 which had gear selection lever on the gear shift. I kept on forgetting to change the gear and red lining.

In the end it all takes getting used too. I have seen many racers in online gaming with G25 use the semi-automtic gear lever (up/down) while negotiating turns, for me I rather have both my hands on steering while negotiating turns and changing the gears using my fingers at the same time. To each his own, but saying one is better than the other is based on ones preference only. The fact that Ferrari has paddle shift in not only its F1 car but road cars, says a lot!!!

Last edited by aseem : 21st November 2008 at 11:24.
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Old 21st November 2008, 13:44   #342
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Firstly, all paddle shifts turn with the steering, and thats how they should be.
Can you throw some light why you say so? And why dont the light and wiper switches turn? It is definitely stupid to me to search for the switch everytime I need to use it.
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Old 21st November 2008, 13:53   #343
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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Firstly, all paddle shifts turn with the steering, and thats how they should be.
Sorry to break the bubble but the Mitsubishi Outlander's paddle shifts do not turn with the steering. It makes a huge difference. When turned 180 degrees you still know which gear is up and down rather than trying to see. Compared to the Civic this is the first thing which struck me on the outlander.

This is the same case with Ferrari's as well.
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Old 21st November 2008, 13:54   #344
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Originally Posted by opendro View Post
Can you throw some light why you say so? And why dont the light and wiper switches turn? It is definitely stupid to me to search for the switch everytime I need to use it.
Maybe this should make it clearer:

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/c...o/DSC_0117.jpg

http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/4821/l4cl.jpg

http://www.gtrblog.com/media/blogs/g...ld-mcr-003.jpg

Its not a switch thats needs to be searched. Its more like two levers behind the stearing. When you turn, your hands too turn the steering so you still have access to the paddle shift. Its not stupid at all and no one is searching. What I suggest is you go test drive a car with paddle shift. Most cars have paddle shifts that move with the steering and its pretty common to have this setup.
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Old 21st November 2008, 13:59   #345
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Originally Posted by vid6639 View Post
Sorry to break the bubble but the Mitsubishi Outlander's paddle shifts do not turn with the steering. It makes a huge difference. When turned 180 degrees you still know which gear is up and down rather than trying to see. Compared to the Civic this is the first thing which struck me on the outlander.

This is the same case with Ferrari's as well.
Agreed point taken, I stand corrected. In any case, like I said its a preference, and there is a lot of research that companies like Lexus, Honda carry out before coming up with moving paddle shifts. Like stated I am quite used to them and dont find a probelm down****ing or upshifting while negotiating a turn on my G25 which has a 900 degrees lock to lock.
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