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Old 27th January 2009, 18:39   #106
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Originally Posted by JK Rao View Post
Even the Scorpio has that swinging problem that leads to the vehicle toppling.
May I please know as to where did you see these Scorpios and Safaris toppling?
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Old 27th January 2009, 19:26   #107
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One thing is an established fact now that M&M as a manufacturer is known to make cars that handle poorly! Striking the right ride & handling balance would take much more engineering prowess, wonder is this all they have learned so far from Lotus!
But probably this is all what they could get out of their platforms, again work needs to be done at grassroots level, till then we will continue to get poor handlers from M&M.
Anyways they are happy catering to the people hauler segment whose priorities are different, also the absence of players in the segment & minimal competition is not pushing them to ditch the old platforms.
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Old 27th January 2009, 19:31   #108
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Originally Posted by bhp1 View Post
One thing is an established fact now that M&M as a manufacturer is known to make cars that handle poorly! Striking the right ride & handling balance would take much more engineering prowess, wonder is this all they have learned so far from Lotus!
But probably this is all what they could get out of their platforms, again work needs to be done at grassroots level, till then we will continue to get poor handlers from M&M.
Anyways they are happy catering to the people hauler segment whose priorities are different, also the absence of players in the segment & minimal competition is not pushing them to ditch the old platforms.
i have not felt scorpio is a poor handler, the CRDe rolls quite a bit but the mHawk is quite good. yes, the ride quality seems to be an issue with every mahindra vehicle.

old platforms? what does that mean ?
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Old 27th January 2009, 21:01   #109
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@Raj, its an established fact that Scorpio is a poor handler & numerous attempts by M&M haven't really paid off, as how much can one improve an antiquated/flawed platform!
With old platform I mean the basic chassis, etc. is not modern & reflects the amatuer engineering feat of M&M. New platform development is the need of the hour, but that involves huge costs & acumen. To kill the Innova, M&M needs to crack the Chassis code first!
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Old 27th January 2009, 21:09   #110
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Originally Posted by bhp1 View Post
Anyways they are happy catering to the people hauler segment whose priorities are different, also the absence of players in the segment & minimal competition is not pushing them to ditch the old platforms.
You seem to be finally understanding the basic fact that the needs of a market are many and very varied!
Yes, you are right; M&M never cared for speed and handling. Their focus lies elsewhere.

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To kill the Innova, M&M needs to crack the Chassis code first!
To kill the Innova, M&M would, in right royal Hindu tradition, need many many rebirths! And at the end of it all, it still won't happen, LOL! We are like that only!!

Last edited by anupmathur : 27th January 2009 at 21:10.
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Old 27th January 2009, 21:32   #111
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Originally Posted by GeekSrik View Post
I had to press the accelerator pedal hard and the car slowly started moving forward. But the speeds I can go at in each gear is pretty limited and since the speedo was disconnected it prevented me from knowing what speed I was at.
So was this a properly marked test drive vehicle or one that would eventually be sold off to a customer?

Nice and detailed review.
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Old 27th January 2009, 21:42   #112
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Originally Posted by anupmathur View Post
You seem to be finally understanding the basic fact that the needs of a market are many and very varied!
"Finally understanding"!! I always knew, but a basic principal of offering a safe to drive car, should be the top priority of a manufacturer, irrespective of the market needs/dynamics. This goes on to prove the commitment of a manufacturer towards its consumers of caring for their & families lives.
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Old 27th January 2009, 21:43   #113
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So was this a properly marked test drive vehicle or one that would eventually be sold off to a customer?
If a speedo is disconnected, it can only mean one thing, whichever way you try to look at it!
The intentions are not bona fide!
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Old 27th January 2009, 22:42   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhp1 View Post
@Raj, its an established fact that Scorpio is a poor handler & numerous attempts by M&M haven't really paid off, as how much can one improve an antiquated/flawed platform!
With old platform I mean the basic chassis, etc. is not modern & reflects the amatuer engineering feat of M&M. New platform development is the need of the hour, but that involves huge costs & acumen. To kill the Innova, M&M needs to crack the Chassis code first!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhp1 View Post
"Finally understanding"!! I always knew, but a basic principal of offering a safe to drive car, should be the top priority of a manufacturer, irrespective of the market needs/dynamics. This goes on to prove the commitment of a manufacturer towards its consumers of caring for their & families lives.
then why do you see many of us buy scorpios and boleros?

the scorpio's handling is not all that buddy, as you potray. i regularly drive the car at 3 digit speeds, i am doing so for the past 6 years and has not had any accident or roll over. that what i meant when i said you should not attempt corners at such speeds, you should know the limitations of an SUV.

its not fair to compare it with a innova. innova is an MUV, it has a lower C.G. and a wider track. scorpio is built with a different purpose, to carry decent speeds on highways and occasionally travel on some real rough roads, the type an innova cant. every car has its specific purpose, no car is built perfect or to suit every individual's all needs.

the scorpio has a new chassis buddy, it was built for the scorpio and is a very rigid one. yes, the ride quality of the scorpio is flawed, that i agree. do you actually think Mahindra can beat toyota???

anyways, lets stick to the topic before the MODS intervene.

Last edited by raj_5004 : 27th January 2009 at 22:43.
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Old 27th January 2009, 23:05   #115
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
then why do you see many of us buy scorpios and boleros?
Lack of choice & unaware of the consequences!

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the scorpio's handling is not all that buddy, as you potray. i regularly drive the car at 3 digit speeds, i am doing so for the past 6 years and has not had any accident or roll over. that what i meant when i said you should not attempt corners at such speeds, you should know the limitations of an SUV.
Not only I say that Scorpios Handling is poor, but Auto Journos across the board acknowdledge this fact & so do many Auto enthusiasts. Even M&M tried so many times to improve this bit, but a long way to go still!
Even SUV's can have good handling, but only if right engineering goes in from the start.

Quote:
its not fair to compare it with a innova. innova is an MUV, it has a lower C.G. and a wider track. scorpio is built with a different purpose, to carry decent speeds on highways and occasionally travel on some real rough roads, the type an innova cant. every car has its specific purpose, no car is built perfect or to suit every individual's all needs.
Actually Im comparing Innova to Xylo, but then went on to site that "handling " is a generic problem with M&M.

Quote:
the scorpio has a new chassis buddy, it was built for the scorpio and is a very rigid one. yes, the ride quality of the scorpio is flawed, that i agree. do you actually think Mahindra can beat toyota???

anyways, lets stick to the topic before the MODS intervene.
New! its going to be ~ 10 years old now & to begin with it wasn't in tune with the times when first manufactured.

In the end I don't mean to ridicule M&M, rather they have made good effort to provide good solutions at convenient pricing. My effort should go in the direction to help them improve in the future.
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Old 28th January 2009, 12:08   #116
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A very interesting discussion building in here.

There are pros & cons of each manufacturer, Indian car manufacturers have relied more on getting technology from abroad and tend to be stingy on R&D.

Agreed that SUV's can have excellent handling given the right engineering, power weight ration, proper alignment of CG etc. etc. but we can never compare the handling of a SUV to a sedan or a MUV which is traditionally aerodynamic and low slung. If we look at the modern SUV's from Suzuki, Hyundai, Audi, Mercedes, etc. they are now much more aerodynamic then their older generation SUV's.

Companies like M&M and Tata which provide us with affordable SUV's should be investing more on engineering & design enhancements rather than dishing out new versions with some cosmetics or engines which is what is happening for years altogether now.

Looking at the "All New" Scorpio one tends to feel that the same old product is being wrapped up in a new package and dished to us; something akin to the "All New Pack" concept followed by the FMCG manufacturers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhp1 View Post
Lack of choice & unaware of the consequences!
Not only I say that Scorpios Handling is poor, but Auto Journos across the board acknowdledge this fact & so do many Auto enthusiasts. Even M&M tried so many times to improve this bit, but a long way to go still!
Even SUV's can have good handling, but only if right engineering goes in from the start.
Actually Im comparing Innova to Xylo, but then went on to site that "handling " is a generic problem with M&M.
New! its going to be ~ 10 years old now & to begin with it wasn't in tune with the times when first manufactured.
In the end I don't mean to ridicule M&M, rather they have made good effort to provide good solutions at convenient pricing. My effort should go in the direction to help them improve in the future.
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Old 28th January 2009, 12:20   #117
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This 'extended-two-box' design that the Sumo Grande and the Xylo have tried their hands at has been tried before by major UV manufacturers like Toyota (Kijang (Qualis) to Unser) before they moved on to the one-box minivan design that we see on the Innova.

IMHO Tata and Mahindra should've learnt from this and moved on directly from their extended 2-boxes (Bolero/Sumo) to Innova-esque monoboxes. Tata seems to have the Xover up their sleeve, but they really should've gone directly down that route instead of persisting with the Sumo in the 'Grande' avtar.

Logically now the 'Grande' should go downmarket and into the Taxi / bulk mover segment once the Xover (or whatever it is called) is launched to address the private market that the Innova caters to.

As for Mahindra, I really dont think this Xylo is going to be a private market hit - they will have to offer taxi-white on a no-frills variant to get large numbers for this vehicle. They really havent gone beyond variants of the original CJ platform so far, it is time they looked at a new platform rather than reskinning the existing platform.
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Old 28th January 2009, 12:49   #118
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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
They really havent gone beyond variants of the original CJ platform so far, it is time they looked at a new platform rather than reskinning the existing platform.
The Scorpio and the Xylo have nothing to do with the CJ platform
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Old 28th January 2009, 14:35   #119
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my reply in bold:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhp1 View Post
Lack of choice & unaware of the consequences!

you mean people are so unaware that a car is unsafe, i dont think so. after driving it for so many years, you think i would still be unaware?

Not only I say that Scorpios Handling is poor, but Auto Journos across the board acknowdledge this fact & so do many Auto enthusiasts. Even M&M tried so many times to improve this bit, but a long way to go still!
Even SUV's can have good handling, but only if right engineering goes in from the start.

can you mention a SUV at this price point which has the handling you expect? keep the costs involved in mind sir, mahindra can give you a scorpio with good handling capabilities for 20 lakhs, who would buy a mahindra for that much money?

New! its going to be ~ 10 years old now & to begin with it wasn't in tune with the times when first manufactured.

i feel the chassis is great, feels very rigid. if it aint broke, dont fix it!

In the end I don't mean to ridicule M&M, rather they have made good effort to provide good solutions at convenient pricing. My effort should go in the direction to help them improve in the future.

definitely, i know that. but i think the pricing is just perfect.
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Old 28th January 2009, 14:37   #120
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Originally Posted by Steeroid View Post
As for Mahindra, I really dont think this Xylo is going to be a private market hit - they will have to offer taxi-white on a no-frills variant to get large numbers for this vehicle. They really havent gone beyond variants of the original CJ platform so far, it is time they looked at a new platform rather than reskinning the existing platform.
sorry to say sir, that is wrong information.

even the wheelbase of the bolero and scorpio is the same, but the scorpio was built on an all new chassis, built from scratch.
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