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Old 28th January 2009, 15:15   #121
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Not only MAHINDRA vehicle but i suppose all the ladder chasis vehicle does handle like THAT only. becos they r not track racers, they r made for different purpose.

Common guys XYLO isnt such a bad handler as is it deceipted here by many, it is pretty nice performer, built for a purpose .
Show me a SPORTY car / track car which handles good on tarmac do the same on rough terrain......


Finally dont conclude anything about a vehicle without test driving it and also please see the purpose..



happy motoring
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Old 28th January 2009, 16:38   #122
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May I please know as to where did you see these Scorpios and Safaris toppling?
Safari toppling i heard from my friend and scorpio toppling my very own bad experience. plus the India garage mechs explaining the various types of toppling cases when i went there for repairs...
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Old 28th January 2009, 17:06   #123
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Originally Posted by bhp1 View Post
Lack of choice & unaware of the consequences!
Not true completely..
Those planning for long term ownership will think about the availability of spares after the model is discontinued.
Some of the tourist qualis' i knew never go for Toyota service stations.

Though on paper the ground clearance is high, i feel a lack of confidence while taking an innova on really bad roads.
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Old 28th January 2009, 18:28   #124
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Originally Posted by JK Rao View Post
Safari toppling i heard from my friend and scorpio toppling my very own bad experience. plus the India garage mechs explaining the various types of toppling cases when i went there for repairs...
What did you exactly try? An Elk test or were shooting for a bollywood flick? You should upgrade to a sports car
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Old 28th January 2009, 20:20   #125
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Originally Posted by m_upreti View Post
Agreed that SUV's can have excellent handling given the right engineering, power weight ration, proper alignment of CG etc. etc. but we can never compare the handling of a SUV to a sedan or a MUV which is traditionally aerodynamic and low slung.

Companies like M&M and Tata which provide us with affordable SUV's should be investing more on engineering & design enhancements rather than dishing out new versions with some cosmetics or engines which is what is happening for years altogether now.

Looking at the "All New" Scorpio one tends to feel that the same old product is being wrapped up in a new package and dished to us; something akin to the "All New Pack" concept followed by the FMCG manufacturers.
You are right SUV's can't handle like saloons, but what Im stressing is that they should not topple at the drop of an hat!
SUV's like Endeavour/Pajero are also products of old school engineering, but handle superbly.
Its the same metal & cost involved in building a safe car & an unsafe one, only thing is right amount of thought & R&D has to go in at initial stages. In future we would see products from both Mahindra & Tata that would be similarly priced to the current ones or a whiff higher, but would handle adequately.

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
my reply
Its strange that even after so much of usage you could not appreciate the fact that Scorpio handles poorly. Everyone has been almost shouting from rooftops about its handling capabilities!

Well, at any given price point, there should not be a compromise & that too with basic safety! It should be a manufacturers commitment to the consumers to provide safe solutions.
If Scorpio owners are okay with the quality of the vehicle, its fine, but others staying away & watching from the wayside know the shortcomings of the vehicle.
Now staying with Xylo, its M&M catch line only "End of Sedans"! Man atleast give it adept handling to even come close to a sedan. Sharing Xylo's chassis/platform with Scorpio's is a big mistake & goes on to show that M&M consciously wants to deliver poor handlers.

See, Ive highlighted a serious flaw/shortcoming in a vehicle, still the ones who are okay with it are going to continue buying it, but even they should compel Mahindra to manufacture road worthy solutions!

Its not a question of price, put it this way - "You are buying/investing money in something which is not safe for you or whoever sits/uses the vehicle". Now, this will give you a whole new perspective/dimension to rethink!
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Old 29th January 2009, 14:11   #126
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again my reply in bold...........................

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Originally Posted by bhp1 View Post


Its strange that even after so much of usage you could not appreciate the fact that Scorpio handles poorly. Everyone has been almost shouting from rooftops about its handling capabilities!

how can i 'APPRECIATE' a fact if its in the negative sense?
see, i am not saying scorpio is a very good handler, i know its limitations. what i meant was, given the price tag of the vehicle and considering its an SUV, the handling is fine for me. i am emphasising on the price aspect because even the pajero is an SUV but then with increased cost comes better technology.
you should not expect a sedan like handling from a scorpio. thats what i said, every car has its different attributes, the scorpio is a bad handler because of its high C.G. and high ground clearance. so show me a sedan which can travel rough roads tha way a scorpio or safari does.

Well, at any given price point, there should not be a compromise & that too with basic safety! It should be a manufacturers commitment to the consumers to provide safe solutions.

totally agreed, but at this price point, which other SUV/MUV offers you airbags and ABS. neither the tavera nor the grande nor the bolero nor the rhino. yes, the innova and safari top end has this feature, but they cost well above 10 lakhs. i feel mahindra should introduce even a higher variant, maybe E10, and provide such safety features are price it accordingly.

If Scorpio owners are okay with the quality of the vehicle, its fine, but others staying away & watching from the wayside know the shortcomings of the vehicle.

we are okay with the quality because nothing has fallen apart till now!

Now staying with Xylo, its M&M catch line only "End of Sedans"! Man atleast give it adept handling to even come close to a sedan. Sharing Xylo's chassis/platform with Scorpio's is a big mistake & goes on to show that M&M consciously wants to deliver poor handlers.

vice versa show me a sedan with the space and practicality of the xylo, thats what i meant when i said every car has different virtues. no car is perfect!

See, Ive highlighted a serious flaw/shortcoming in a vehicle, still the ones who are okay with it are going to continue buying it, but even they should compel Mahindra to manufacture road worthy solutions!

you mean the scorpio, bolero & xylo are not road worthy, is that the reason you see so many plying on the road?
Now that a difficult statement to digest, hence no comments!

Its not a question of price, put it this way - "You are buying/investing money in something which is not safe for you or whoever sits/uses the vehicle". Now, this will give you a whole new perspective/dimension to rethink!

i totally understand your concern buddy, but do you think all of us on T-BHP or elsewhere who has bought a scorpio or a bolero or planning to buy a xylo dont care for the safety of their dear ones? of course not. you say its lack of awareness, but sorry, just having ABS and airbags alone does not make a car safe, it has to be sturdy enough to withstand impacts too. the scorpio is much tougher than an innova.
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Old 29th January 2009, 14:25   #127
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Originally Posted by bhp1 View Post
If Scorpio owners are okay with the quality of the vehicle, its fine, but others staying away & watching from the wayside know the shortcomings of the vehicle.
"You are buying/investing money in something which is not safe for you or whoever sits/uses the vehicle". Now, this will give you a whole new perspective/dimension to rethink!
Bhp1, thanks for this very illuminating post!
Is it perhaps also very condescending?

Christ, you make it sound as though it is a bunch of ignoramuses that buys these vehicles! And, to compound the stab, you make it seem like they do not know what it means to love someone!
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Old 29th January 2009, 15:35   #128
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raj and anup

going through the various threads on Xylo I can only say that so many comments made by so many of us TBHP colleagues, come across as opinionated and in some ways quite uncharitable towards this effort from Mahindra's.

Looks like most of us TBHP-ians are pretty fond of pontificating from the pulpit eh?

Be that as it may I just test drove the Top End Xylo E8. The guys from the dealership were parked near my house waiting for another customer so I hijacked the vehicle and took a spin in it. Also took some snaps which I am sharing on this post.

My two bits below:
1. Driveability - super for cities, will certainly be good on highways for a group of people. Its low end torque and car-like handling and general behaviour will benefit city drivers a lot. Excellent driving seat position and I like the seat adjuster. I wish there were a lumbar support adjuster too. WOuld be lovely for long distance.
2. Turning radius - very nice, since near my home there are lots of narrow lanes and we spun it around those lanes. Very easy to handle and responsive to the wheel.
3. Comfort (Driver and co - passenger seats) - Better legroom than my Scorpio LX. (Back Seat) - Captain seats are superb. Rearmost seat - I am 6 ft 2 inches tall and when I lean back, the top of my head just touches the roof moulding - I will not sit in that seat.
4. AC - very powerful. great roof units - adequate cooling in the second and third rows both.
5. Little touches I liked - the In Flight trays behind the front seats. The little reading lamps located above the second and third row seats. Excellent for being chauffeur driven. Armrests in the second row are appreciated. Co Passenger seat armrest is good. Driver seat armrest I find irritating generally. Third row seat has a nice centre armrest with glass holders. Between the front 2 seats near handbrake there is a nice storage area and a charging point. Convenient.
6. Legroom in second row is more than adequate. Third row is slightly tight but I do have very long legs. Under thigh support in the front seats and second row is adequate.
7. Clutch is soft and easy. Accelerator feels less peppy than my Scorp but this is more a vehicle meant for the chauffeur driven types - People mover segment.
8. Braking feels decent. When going around curves quite fast - 60kmph, there is no "fish-tailing" which I expected with its length and relatively higher Centre of Gravity compared with a sedan. (My Scorpio is actually a bit higher than the Xylo to look at). Ground Clearance on both seem similar though.
9. Tyres/ Wheels: According to me, for the general mass people mover segment the tyres 215/75/R15 could be adequate but personally I would like a tyre upsize to atleast 235/70/R15 or R16 with chunkier alloys similar to my Scorpio.
10.HORN: Good original horn on this vehicle too unlike the Bolero.
11.Seat Sliders & Storage: One thing is that the middle row of seats cannot be slid back and forth. They can only be folded over, to offer access to the rearmost seat. The rear most seat can either be folded over twice or completely removed if one likes. The storage capacity of this vehicle is really good. IDEAL for 4 guys off on a Golfing holiday - enough space for 4 golf bags and their luggage.
12. Engine: I took a close look. This is an M EAGLE 2.5 (2594CC) with Intercooler. Same technology as M Hawk 2.2 but with slightly increased capacity. However the BHP developed is lower than M Hawk. My surmise is that this is meant to carry loads over longer distances and in comfort, which is why the engine capacity, but it has been de-tuned a bit and its BHP reduced because typically it wont be driven the way people drive their Scorpios. In the engine pictures please note the air intakes inside the bonnet and just above the radiator grille. Also the cladding inside the bonnet helps reduce NVH levels considerably. Quite a Quiet-ish engine though powerful.
13. Overall quality: Seems good. Even the plastics and upholstery are better than earlier Mahindra efforts. But Innova has the edge in finish quality. However, the price of the top end Xylo is significantly lower when compared with the similarly loaded Innova.
14: Looks: Very subjective. Certainly has a reasonable looking front 3 quarter. Quite fat and boxy rear 3 quarter. (Innova has more fluid lines).

Therefore, I would venture to say that this vehicle will definitely find favour with budget conscious space wagon/ people mover types. Yes, if Xylo were to come with an E10 variant with Airbags and ABS etc it would be lovely.

IMO it is definitely a Sedan beater, given the space, carrying capacity, comfort, engine, city driveability and car like handling, soft clutch, good torque so one can chug along in low gear, foot-off-the-clutch and light on the accelerator in the normal bumper to bumper madness and of course, the rather excellent turning radius!

An AT Version would be a good option for the future.

Ideal also for those long Airport-City-Airport hauls.

All in all it is a very decent effort from Mahindra so lets give credit where it is due.

Here are the pics attached

cheers

sb
Attached Images
          

Last edited by shankar.balan : 29th January 2009 at 15:42.
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Old 29th January 2009, 15:55   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shankar.balan View Post
raj and anup

going through the various threads on Xylo I can only say that so many comments made by so many of us TBHP colleagues, come across as opinionated and in some ways quite uncharitable towards this effort from Mahindra's.

Looks like most of us TBHP-ians are pretty fond of pontificating from the pulpit eh?

Be that as it may I just test drove the Top End Xylo E8. The guys from the dealership were parked near my house waiting for another customer so I hijacked the vehicle and took a spin in it. Also took some snaps which I am sharing on this post.

My two bits below:
cheers

sb
truly buddy, i feel some T-BHPians are just going with the flow and are criticizing the vehicle just for the heck of it, no offence intended to anyone.

great review buddy, this is what i feel is an unbiased review. he has amply mentioned the negative aspects but most importantly has not forgotten the postive aspects too. he is not comparing the handling to a sedan bacause the stupid TV ad says its a 'sedan killer' nor is expecting the plastic quality to be of innova levels because someone THOUGHT mahindra is targetting the innova!

i just feel one should look at the pricing & positioning of a vehicle before smashing up the manufacturer.

btw shankar, i can see your scorpio in the background, long time no see you know!

i just hate the xylo's front looks but i quite liked the rear looks.

Last edited by raj_5004 : 29th January 2009 at 15:57.
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Old 29th January 2009, 16:31   #130
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Hi, I am not sure if you have a personal experience with a SUV, it is a fact that a SUV has more chance of toppeling over than a sedan under certain conditions because of the higher CG.

You cannot single out Indian SUV's for toppeling over at the drop of a hat, otherwise the way Scorpios, Safaris, Traveras, Jeeps, Trax etc are being driven on the Pune Mumbai, Delhi Jaipur, Delhi Nainital highways we would see them littered on the side, wheels in the air.

How a car is handled will depend on the driver, the road conditions & then the car itself, we have a case recently reported (with pics) in some thread in TBHP where a sedan turned turtle after being hit by an Auto, so can we infer from this that "Sedans overturn after being hit by an Auto"..no in this case the driver was to blame.

Case where JKRaos Scorpio overturned after a burst tyre, we dont know what happened for sure, but one thing is sure that high CG played a major part, but if you want to drive a SUV you need to live with it.

I have earlier shared an experience earlier where my fathers Land Rover overturned after it went off the road.

Singling out a Mahindra or a Tata for building cars that overturn is not correct, and comparing them to a Pajero or Endevour, how many of us can actually afford to buy & more important maintain them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bhp1 View Post
You are right SUV's can't handle like saloons, but what Im stressing is that they should not topple at the drop of an hat!
SUV's like Endeavour/Pajero are also products of old school engineering, but handle superbly.
Its the same metal & cost involved in building a safe car & an unsafe one, only thing is right amount of thought & R&D has to go in at initial stages. In future we would see products from both Mahindra & Tata that would be similarly priced to the current ones or a whiff higher, but would handle adequately.

I totally disagree with your statement that these cars are not roadworthy, people in this forum have had Scorpio's , Safaris which have run over a lakh of kms. If you can statistically prove this I will be greatful.

Its strange that even after so much of usage you could not appreciate the fact that Scorpio handles poorly. Everyone has been almost shouting from rooftops about its handling capabilities!

Well, at any given price point, there should not be a compromise & that too with basic safety! It should be a manufacturers commitment to the consumers to provide safe solutions.
If Scorpio owners are okay with the quality of the vehicle, its fine, but others staying away & watching from the wayside know the shortcomings of the vehicle.
Now staying with Xylo, its M&M catch line only "End of Sedans"! Man atleast give it adept handling to even come close to a sedan. Sharing Xylo's chassis/platform with Scorpio's is a big mistake & goes on to show that M&M consciously wants to deliver poor handlers.

See, Ive highlighted a serious flaw/shortcoming in a vehicle, still the ones who are okay with it are going to continue buying it, but even they should compel Mahindra to manufacture road worthy solutions!

Its not a question of price, put it this way - "You are buying/investing money in something which is not safe for you or whoever sits/uses the vehicle". Now, this will give you a whole new perspective/dimension to rethink!
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Old 29th January 2009, 18:29   #131
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Shankar, a well presented review, as always!
However, it comes from an M&M boy!

I saw the Xylo at Sri Durga in Delhi. I was impressed and methinks it has a good future, what with spot-on pricing.
But then, I'm also an M&M boy (or uncle?)!

And Raj. Oh that M&M boy Raj? He's always stood by the Xylo, through thick & thin on this thread!
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Old 29th January 2009, 22:10   #132
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@Raj, absolutely, I know Scorpio has its attributes. What Im trying to emphasize is that all cars manufactured "now" should offer basic safety to the occupants whatever the price point. Do you know, Scorpio & as topic is about Xlyo, & all other M&M vehicles for that matter do not even qualify as safe cars. There's no crash testing carried out & basic structures are only boxes on 4 wheels without any real crumple zones or structural aides. A car like Innova on the other hand, being an MUV & in Scorpio's price bracket, is extremely safe vehicle.
Here Im not even talking about ABS/Airbags, these are only helpful/beneficial if the overall body is crash worthy. Everthing from the chassis to the body has to designed keeping in mind safety, then only additions like ABS/Airbags can be helpful.
Indians as a whole & even many educated ones do not realize the importance of safety & do not even know how safety imparted to a vehicle, you can call this ignorance too. This is a major reason why they end up buying vehicles falsely having in their minds that the vehicle is safe, but in reality its otherwise. Any attempts to educate them draws a lot of criticism & ire. Mostly owners of respective vehicles are not ready to hear any harsh truths about their sweet acquisitions.

I read your sentence "it has to be sturdy enough to withstand impacts too. the scorpio is much tougher than an innova" what can I say about this now, you are completely living in dark. I really wish some expert or some mod. to verify this for you. Innova is umpteen times safer than a Scorpio, I can vouch for this! Toughness has got nothing to do with safety!

I also read many replies in various threads where users say " we are aware of the weaknesses/limitations of our vehicles, but drive accordingly". I guess everybody drives accordingly & to the best of ones capability, but still "A" for Accidents happen & no driver is "G" for God! How about even if you are driving ok & someone else decides to bump into you! A safe vehicle is meant to save lives at odd ends, which no one anticipates, but one should be prepared for such eventuality & this starts with a safe vehicle.
Push & ask manufacturers to supply safer vehicles & shun the ones which put you in danger. Life is worth living & don't buy unsafe vehicles, like there is warning on Cigarette packs, but people still smoke, the same way people buy unsafe vehicles too. Warning was my duty, choice is ones own! Happy motoring.


@Mupreti, Ive driven Scorpio/Safari & the likes extensively.
Im not comparing sedans handling to MUV's/SUV's, but amongst the same segment.
Lets take a generalised view & not go by driver to driver, consider different vehicles driven by the same person, now the chances of toppling over of Scorpio/ Xylo are much higher than Innova/ Tavera. Also as I mentioned earlier, Scorpio/ Xylo are devoid of basic safety in addition to toppling over issue.
A Scorpio/Xylo owner would surely defend his buy to the uttmost level,atleast this is the case here, but there's no loss of respect if one accknowledges the fact that these are not safe vehicles. Alright don't even do that just keep in your mind & let other prospective buyers get educated about the real conditions & then make a choice of their own knowing the true picture.
Ask M&M to crash test a Scorpio/ Xylo, these vehicles would fail miserably.
Why would one want to invest money in something which is not safe, there are a few explanations only:
-Ignorance
-Over confidence
-Blind love
-no/less love for life!
What ever the price of Scorpio/Xylo, there's no justification to overlook the safety aspect, as one can only enjoy these if there will be life. So, give life a priority!
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Old 29th January 2009, 22:40   #133
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@ bhp1: ok buddy, got your point. you are saying that the scorpio and xylo are pretty unsafe vehicles and the innova is a very safe vehicle. is this from personal experience? which one have you crash tested to arrive to such a conclusion? which experience of yours tell you that mahindra vehicles are 'boxes on four wheels' & not 'road worthy', we ignorant indians would be glad to know.

secondly, i do agree that mahindra should offer safety features, infact i have already criticized the scorpio and xylo regarding this, but you did not reply to one basic question of mine: which other SUV/MUV offers you airbag & ABS at this price?

lastly, very confidently you said that scorpio/xylo has more chances of toppling than a tavera/innova, again... any experience regarding this?
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Old 29th January 2009, 22:50   #134
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
@ bhp1: ok buddy, got your point. you are saying that the scorpio and xylo are pretty unsafe vehicles and the innova is a very safe vehicle. is this from personal experience? which one have you crash tested to arrive to such a conclusion? which experience of yours tell you that mahindra vehicles are 'boxes on four wheels' & not 'road worthy', we ignorant indians would be glad to know.

secondly, i do agree that mahindra should offer safety features, infact i have already criticized the scorpio and xylo regarding this, but you did not reply to one basic question of mine: which other SUV/MUV offers you airbag & ABS at this price?

lastly, very confidently you said that scorpio/xylo has more chances of toppling than a tavera/innova, again... any experience regarding this?
Raj I fully support your contention that Mahindra vehicles are amongst the best as far as sturdiness is concerned. Having spent many years with the Willys/Jeep CJ 3B, 4A, 500D, 540 DP,FC260D and now the Bolero, I can vouch that even without safety features Mahindra jeeps cocoon the occupants with their solid body shells.The steel front bumpers of the CJ 3B, CJ 4A and CJ 500D are a terror and can even bash up an Ambassador leave alone the newer plasticky cars, without any dent on the Jeep bumper. These can go where no other four wheeler can tread and return unscathed.FORTRESS ON WHEELS THESE ARE.
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Old 29th January 2009, 23:02   #135
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@Raj, nope my point is not to ridicule M&M or its vehicles, its making vehicles to the best of its capabilities, Im only trying to educate people about the nature of vehicles, prime being unsafe! This point shall only ring on the ears of those to whom safety matters.
I haven't had a first hand experience at crashing these vehicles, as they say you don't have to burn your fingers to know fire is hot! I have learned through research/reading. You can also know this by simply going to various dealerships & checking out the accidental vehicles inventory or if you get a chance, check them out on site of accident. Occupants of Scorpio/Safari/etc. seldom survive horrific accidents or get grevious injuries, while Innova due to its GOA body structure, manages to keep the occupants rather safe.

If you read my posts correctly, I never mentioned that ABS/Airbags are a must. Yes. its good to have them, but in cars that are otherwise crash worthy. In a Scorpio/Xylo, Airbags would be a waste, as there are going to be many other things that are going to hit the driver apart from airbags!
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