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Old 14th June 2009, 01:26   #361
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Originally Posted by vivekiny2k View Post
Dude, that's why I put corolla and civic in picture. It's a known fact that cars in India are 50-100% costlier because of duties. That's why I was saying FIT/JAZZ at comparable prices was a pleasant surprise to me (I am serious). I was avoiding to let a friend wait for it because I didn't expect it to launch at < 12L. Let's continue on the other aspects of the car now.
Lets give it another chance & look at it another way. Lets assume that your wish is granted & in India Honda should price Jazz at 12 lacs because - a) its priced equal to Corolla & Civic in US & should be priced similarly in India also, & b) Duty structure of India making cars costlier.

Now, because Honda has employed 1.2 engine (instead of 1.5 L in US which you've mentioned) for excise duty benefits (lets say excise benefits are 75k - 1 lac), it comes to 12 lacs less 1 lac = 11 lacs.

77% localisation means dirt cheap labour cost & operating costs - shall we say 30% cost saving? - 30% of 11 Lacs = 3.3 lacs. Lets take 3 Lacs only. So, 11 lacs less 3 lacs = 8 Lacs.

Take a conservative estimate of cost saving because of trimming/ taking out following features & deduct it from 8 Lacs. I leave it you guys, take your own estimate of these costly features which Honda has omitted in India (e.g. I guess if you want to add optional Alloy Wheels in AHNC, Honda charges you around 30 K - 40 K). Take your own estimate - even very conservative estimate for each feature omitted.

117-hp, 1.5-Liter, 16-Valve SOHC i-VTEC® Engine - why its peddling that punny 1.2 (compared to 1.5 L) engine in India
ULEV-2 (Ultra-Low-Emission Vehicle) - ??
Front and Rear Stabilizer Bars (All Fit Sport Models) - ??
Side Curtain Airbags
Vehicle Stability Assist™ (VSA®) with Traction Control
Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS) -
Daytime Running Lights (DRL) - ??
Outboard Lower Anchors and Tethers for CHildren (LATCH) -
Honda Satellite-Linked Navigation System™ with Voice Recognition[4]
160-Watt AM/FM/CD Audio System with 6 Speakers - not sure about wattage shd be < 160 watt in India
USB Audio Interface[3]
Cruise Control
Perforated Leather-Wrapped Steering Wheel - ??
Tilt and Telescopic Steering Column - Only tilt, no telescopic steering in India. Why?
Maintenance Minder™ System
Body-Colored Folding Power Side Mirrors - Not power-folding in India
Fog Lights - Honda never gives Fog Lights in India. Why? American lives are more worthy/ costlier?
Body-Colored Rear Roofline Spoiler
Chrome Exhaust Finisher
Tinted Glass
16" Alloy Wheels - Honda never gives Alloy as standard in India. Why? Indians are plain simple people & Americans are funky?
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Old 14th June 2009, 02:55   #362
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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
I get the point that you dont like Jazz or its pricing.
See, its not a question of my or your liking or disliking it. As GTO said earlier, this forum discusses everything objectively & even Honda howsoever we worship them, can not get away with it.
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Honda is not forcing you to buy one.
Now, thats a direct personal attack. Anyway am ignoring it though feel that statement should have looked more matured with the word "People/ Market" rather than the word "you".
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No point making fun of those who appreciate it, they clearly have a different opinion than yours.
Dude, check again. I was just replying objectively to a post he himself has posted with a "smiley". (copied below)
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Originally Posted by Equus View Post
The car looks nice (I am biased!) and extremely practical. I wouldnt probably spend that much to own this car, but would envy the owners for sure
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I remember the same was said about ANHC price vis a vis Linea, we all know how it went. The Linea now has a dedicated thread with owners telling us about how Fiat has built the car to price by compromising on the quality with plastic parts coming off within weeks of ownership. Still to hear that about ANHC.
Friend, Its I who have initiated raising the plastic issues in my car in my ownership thread as well as other Linea thread. Unlike some others on the forum, I can look at the car (& the brand thereof) I own objectively, I can hear about the issues or even raise the issues. I find no problem if you go on counting negatives of Linea. Doesn't matter to me. Unlike others who have changed tunes regarding Honda from the time of ANHC-launch to Jazz-launch (details in my post #335 in this very thread). I've even read many of your posts & the thread you started on ratings ANHC vs Linea. In fact, that thread & the way things were being projected there for Honda helped me to take a decision to buy Linea. I always believe that readers here are mature enough what to take & what not to take from each post.
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Still to hear that about ANHC.
Should thank god that I did not buy ANHC 3-4 months back. Would not have any problem in objectively discussing ANHC issues (there are threads here on the ANHC & service issues)
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Agreed its a pricey car, but its upto Honda on which segment and class they target and what numbers they are looking at and whats their manfacturing capacity. The car is priced at 6.98 lakh ex showroom in Delhi, and for all comparos I see ppl stating its 8 lakhs. Now we can open another thread on why southern states take high road taxes whilst having poorer infrastructure than the north, but that itself requires a seperate thread. In a country where we are yet to have proper high ways, proper road, where their are exise and levies from peterol to movies, we have enough things to complain already.
Oh. From discussing Cars we've now come to discuss How Govt levies higher tax, how roads are bad, how infrastructures in some regions bad & should be discussing those issues rather than how Honda priced Jazz? I thought Govt excise & levies are applicable across the board uniformly & there is no impartiality to Honda or any other mfr.
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No point comparing the cost of the car with that of US, as if we were in US, we'd all be driving Civics or Accords than Swifts or City's. But till that time we are here, we can just live with what we have and appreciate we have another car in our market.
Check again the posts. A member cited US example & mentioned Honda should have priced Jazz with Corolla & Civic at 12 Lacs. I just replied to put things in perspective. Until then did not even care to see what Honda does in US,
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Cut Honda some slack, Honda is one of the few car makers that at least offers many cars from its global portfolio in India. Look at Toyota, they are yet to offer anything serious other than the Innova and Corrola and their CKDs. Suzuki doesnt have enough cars in its portfolio in C and D segment, so they keep launching more of the same. All cars launched and made on Swift platform. Hyundai keeps getting worse in its offering, there was a time we had so many Sonatas (old) on the road, Elantras and Tucson... Now they are limited to Santro and i10 and a not so serious effort with i20 by limiting their engine options. Skoda, well considered as low grade cars from eastern europe in Western Euope, are priced at premium in India. To top that they have astronomically high spares and service. Tata's are yet to develop a good portfolio and their cars are some way off of the global engineering standard. Mahindra is no jeep, they just keep ploking the same engines in poorly designed chasis (compared to world standards) and we keep buying them as we dont have any choice. I have lost track on the number of upgrades Scorpio has had... giving us more of the same!
Ohh. All car manufacturers in India seem so depressing. Only Honda shows some light at the end of the tunnel.
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So given the depressing automotive scene that we have in our developing country, all new highways no matter how much toll they charge and all new cars no matter how pricey they are, are welcome. As they are a step towards the right direction, and if we do live to see that day, when we have sane tax structure in our country, we may see their prices eventually coming down...
Honda bashing goes so much overboard here that we start blaming Honda for everything wrong with our automotive scene. I saw on a news channel (BBC iirc) that India and China had the same per capita income in 1999. Look at where China is now, infrastructure, cars, economy etc.... who do we blame that on now... Honda???
No. So lets blame the Govt for the prices Honda charges in India. Thought Govt taxes were uniform across. Lets ask Govt to give higher Excise duty benefits (than what it currently gives) specifically to Honda to facilitate Honda using 1.2 engine in Jazz to price it slightly lower.
Oops again from discussing Cars, we've now ended up disccusing India-China economy.

Last edited by VahanPujari : 14th June 2009 at 03:04. Reason: minor additions
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Old 14th June 2009, 10:41   #363
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Originally Posted by VahanPujari View Post
See, its not a question of my or your liking or disliking it. As GTO said earlier, this forum discusses everything objectively & even Honda howsoever we worship them, can not get away with it.

Now, thats a direct personal attack. Anyway am ignoring it though feel that statement should have looked more matured with the word "People/ Market" rather than the word "you".

Dude, check again. I was just replying objectively to a post he himself has posted with a "smiley". (copied below)


Friend, Its I who have initiated raising the plastic issues in my car in my ownership thread as well as other Linea thread. Unlike some others on the forum, I can look at the car (& the brand thereof) I own objectively, I can hear about the issues or even raise the issues. I find no problem if you go on counting negatives of Linea. Doesn't matter to me. Unlike others who have changed tunes regarding Honda from the time of ANHC-launch to Jazz-launch (details in my post #335 in this very thread). I've even read many of your posts & the thread you started on ratings ANHC vs Linea. In fact, that thread & the way things were being projected there for Honda helped me to take a decision to buy Linea. I always believe that readers here are mature enough what to take & what not to take from each post.

Should thank god that I did not buy ANHC 3-4 months back. Would not have any problem in objectively discussing ANHC issues (there are threads here on the ANHC & service issues)

Oh. From discussing Cars we've now come to discuss How Govt levies higher tax, how roads are bad, how infrastructures in some regions bad & should be discussing those issues rather than how Honda priced Jazz? I thought Govt excise & levies are applicable across the board uniformly & there is no impartiality to Honda or any other mfr.

Check again the posts. A member cited US example & mentioned Honda should have priced Jazz with Corolla & Civic at 12 Lacs. I just replied to put things in perspective. Until then did not even care to see what Honda does in US,

Ohh. All car manufacturers in India seem so depressing. Only Honda shows some light at the end of the tunnel.

No. So lets blame the Govt for the prices Honda charges in India. Thought Govt taxes were uniform across. Lets ask Govt to give higher Excise duty benefits (than what it currently gives) specifically to Honda to facilitate Honda using 1.2 engine in Jazz to price it slightly lower.
Oops again from discussing Cars, we've now ended up disccusing India-China economy.
Firstly I didnt meant to attack you personally and my apologies if it seemed that way, however I do see this thread is getting you pretty worked up and all I meant was relax as no one is forcing you to buy this car or any other. If you dont like it, simply state it, whats the point in qouting various threads and highlighting your views again and again to raise the same arguments. I am sure those who have objectively gone through this thread know what your views are about this car.

I really appreciate that you have created a thread for Linea troubles. Having said that, you'd agree that Honda City has proven to be more reliable and at least I am yet to hear plastic coming off of Honda City or rattling problems. In my comparison of ANHC vs Linea I had mentioned that Linea plastic quality looked suspect, I remember that statement made a furor. But now I think its quite evident that pricing the car to 6-7 lakhs Fiat has not given us the Palio like build quality and compromised on the quality of material used. It is my opinion that one should rather charge 50k upfront and good better quality, than compromise on quality for the sake of keeping low initial cost. I am certain that the international Linea's have higher quality materials used and better build quality vis a vis India.

Why should I thank god you didnt buy ANHC. I believe your assumption behind that statement is that only you can be objective about something. Do you mean to imply all other Bhpians who own ANHC are not as objective as you???

Coming to govt levies, yes they are for all manufacturers across the board. But tell me whats the price difference between Corolla and Civic considering they both have a 1.8 ltr engine, are relatively in the same market segment world wide. Not much is it?

Now all manfacturers are forced to plonk 1.2 ltr engines in our cars because of the stupid leveis system thereby making all super hatches of the day underpowered. If the hatch is small in terms of space like Ritz than they are driveable and punchy. But if its a i20 or a Jazz the car becomes sluggish or less responsive.

In case of Getz CRDI Hyundai took the engine from Verna diesel and reduced the cubic capacity (like Honda did with Jazz). The cost of the engine was the same for Verna and Getz, therefore Getz was a very costly diesel in its prime. Its only now when its being phased out do we see a price cut. In case of i20 Hyundai plonked the i10 engine in the car, thereby reducing the price of the car and pricing it competitively. However if you go purely by the motor, a Swift Zxi still scores over i20.

It is agreed here that there is not much cost saving for Honda between 1.2ltr i-vtech and the 1.5 ltr i-vtech, its merely the excise benefit that is forcing Honda to give us a 1.2 ltr engine here. The car is more expensive than the City in international markets and that is for a reason. If you look at both cars you'd see apart from the boot and engine (which are of the same cost to Honda) every other aspect Jazz is better than the ANHC. If you look at the quality of interiors this thing comes as close to Civic as any car can come in the south of 10 lakhs. The build quality is solid. The wiper blades are like Civic unlike the cheaper quality ones in City. The side panels are much better than the City and the console of Jazz is in a different league. Add to that the magic seats and the cost associated with that. If not for India's sedan mentality and associated aspirational values of status, for a practical western mind Jazz scores over City in all respects barring engine, which is being forced upon us by the govt regulations.

So keeping the above factors in mind, if nothing else manufacturing Jazz costs same if not more than than ANHC to Honda. Add to that the 12% excise benefit that Honda gets by plonking 1.2 ltr motor. The price difference between Honda City S (comparable model) and Jazz basic is the following:

Jazz: 6.98 ex showroom Delhi
ANHC: 8.32 ex showroom Delhi

Price Difference: 1.34 lakhs
Excise Benefit: 99840 Rs

Actual price difference: 34000 Rs. So for Honda the price difference between the cars is mere 30,000 Rs and which is in line with their international prices. If not for the levies and duties you could very well have a full blown 1.5 ltr in jazz by a mere 30k difference, but dont blame Honda for not giving you one, blame the duty structure.

Lastly I believe all the heat Jazz is getting is due to it being costly for a hatch. Thats merely our mentality. I am sure WV wont price Golf in 5-6 lakh hatch bracket. If you check in UK the price difference between i20 1.2 ltr and Honda Jazz is approx 1600-2000 pounds and even more in some variants, which is quite inline withe their price difference here.

Last edited by aseem : 14th June 2009 at 10:44.
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Old 14th June 2009, 13:36   #364
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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
Lastly I believe all the heat Jazz is getting is due to it being costly for a hatch. If you check in UK the price difference between i20 1.2 ltr and Honda Jazz is approx 1600-2000 pounds and even more in some variants, which is quite inline withe their price difference here.
What I gather from the respective UK websites:

Hyundai | New Cars | I20 | Prices
1.2 Comfort 5dr OTR price £9,445.00 VED band D

(picked i20 model close to the model available in India. India model does have a few features from the higher trim style too.)

Honda Jazz | Book Test Drive | Specification, Finance & Information
1.2 i-VTEC (Petrol) Manual OTR price £9,990 VED band/UK road-taxD £120

(picked Jazz model with comparable i20 UK spec.)

I guess we should refrain from comparing car prices between India and the UK. At least I don't understand the taxation/other policies in the UK. And the specs too don't really match the models available in India. (Looking at the UK specs will probably cause more heart-burn for some )
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Old 14th June 2009, 13:57   #365
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'Spicy' discussion here! Come on guys! One life. Why so serious?

Jokes apart, is not a little unfair that the 'poor, under engineered' i20 gets compared to a vehicles which is 2.1 lakhs more expensive! I mean with Jazz (entry level) money we will get an i20 and an 800 AC for change. Now even if we take top-end i20 and entry Jazz its more than one lakh difference.

Honda Jazz - 6.98 to 7.33 lakhs (all in Delhi and only petrol variants)
Hyundai i20 - 4.8 to 5.8 lakhs
Skoda Fabia - 4.9 to 6.4 lakhs

I suppose you can see what I mean. That is almost like comparing the WagonR against the i20!

Perhaps that is another way of presenting the same problem!
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Old 14th June 2009, 14:31   #366
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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
I mean with Jazz (entry level) money we will get an i20 and an 800 AC for change. Now even if we take top-end i20 and entry Jazz its more than one lakh difference.

Honda Jazz - 6.98 to 7.33 lakhs (all in Delhi and only petrol variants)
Hyundai i20 - 4.8 to 5.8 lakhs
OR we can get a top end i20 and a Nano (6.98L-5.8L=1.18L) for change!!!!
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Old 14th June 2009, 14:31   #367
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Great review GTO

Honda is demanding the higher price for the reliability that comes with their cars I guess.

But atleast Alloy wheels and USB head unit should have been provided at this cost.

Last edited by tush : 14th June 2009 at 14:33.
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Old 14th June 2009, 14:40   #368
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What reliability do you talk about. Please access all my recent and erlier posts about the CIVIC owned by me. Also do keep the attitude of the dealers and company persons in mind. They will not help you out with anything, they will revise prices upto 6 times the original, without a blink of the eye. They play DIRTY, real dirty. and snooty.

I am posting the website where some of the photographs of the relevant items/problems can be seen http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post1345977 (Problems With My Civic And Honda Does Not Care)

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Old 14th June 2009, 14:56   #369
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Oh you have had a bad experience with Honda. My Sympathy to you. I am not sure about the reliability of Honda but have heard people swear by its reliability and hence its resale value is also high. I just mentioned that I "guess" it would be their reliability that is demanding this high price. And its my personal view. Thanks for your thread links.

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Old 14th June 2009, 15:14   #370
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Originally Posted by anilkalvani View Post
OR we can get a top end i20 and a Nano (6.98L-5.8L=1.18L) for change!!!!


Precisely. I am sure that there will be some people to buy this car.

But its definitely not a mainstream choice. This is not something which you would say about any of their models under normal circumstances.
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Old 14th June 2009, 15:59   #371
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IMHO honda maynot be seeing it as a huge volume player.The price for this product is definetly a bit on the higher side.The market would now see a justification for the i20 and fabia pricing.Every possiblity that the sale of i20 would go up.Jazz volumes would be low for sure initially.

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Old 14th June 2009, 16:51   #372
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Originally Posted by tush View Post
Great review GTO

Honda is demanding the higher price for the reliability that comes with their cars I guess.

But atleast Alloy wheels and USB head unit should have been provided at this cost.
What a high price for reliability! A car is supposed to take you from point A to point B. In today's market offerings...I can see Sonalika Rhino also doing this job reliably but does that mean I pay a premium for that?

Personally I love Honda's fit and finish. Love the Civic & ANHC. But for me to be seen in a Jazz at that price! I will feel so stupid. Is there an element of 'Owner's pride' in the Jazz offer? I doubt. I have seen this car on road for years in different markets (much better loaded+much better priced) and I would not want to shout out loud to the whole world "Look what a bargain! I have paid a lac & a half in excess to buy my Neighbour's Envey"
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Old 14th June 2009, 17:09   #373
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Originally Posted by VahanPujari View Post
Lets give it another chance & look at it another way.
==========
117-hp, 1.5-Liter, 16-Valve SOHC i-VTEC® Engine - why its peddling that punny 1.2 (compared to 1.5 L) engine in India
================
16" Alloy Wheels - Honda never gives Alloy as standard in India. Why? Indians are plain simple people & Americans are funky?
very detailed list dude. Please keep it up. And if we compare with US version, let us keep in mind that it would be an auto tranny in US. May be that would make a difference of another 50 - 70 K. Or is it?

Last edited by Jaggu : 14th June 2009 at 17:44. Reason: Please dont quote an entire large post thanks.
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Old 14th June 2009, 18:22   #374
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Fantastic review and photographs GTO. Thanks for sharing.

The car looks really good and spacious. Coming to the 8L pricepoint, I do think its a little overpriced, but I'd definitely buy it. I currently have a Ford Fusion TDCi that cost almost 8L, and comes with half the feautures on the Jazz. But the bottom line is, the Fusion is drivable by the entire family, gives fabulous kms/litre and everyone loves it to bits. Not to mention the huuuge boot space and the practicality of the hatch, which made us decide this against the Fiesta. Even my folks love this for ease of luggage loading/unloading. And no boot=easy parking (think older folks and new drivers).

What we should be looking for in the Jazz IMO is the logevity and the peace of mind that the 'H' badge offers. You can probably drive this thing for 10years and it'll still keep going strong. Cant really say the same about the existing competition for sure. I think its for pratical folk, not boyracers, and its perfect. Too bad there's no diesel though.

Is this car available in Honda red ?

Last edited by NIP : 14th June 2009 at 18:27.
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Old 14th June 2009, 18:36   #375
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Originally Posted by BeamerBoy View Post
What a high price for reliability! A car is supposed to take you from point A to point B. In today's market offerings...I can see Sonalika Rhino also doing this job reliably but does that mean I pay a premium for that?

Personally I love Honda's fit and finish. Love the Civic & ANHC. But for me to be seen in a Jazz at that price! I will feel so stupid. Is there an element of 'Owner's pride' in the Jazz offer? I doubt. I have seen this car on road for years in different markets (much better loaded+much better priced) and I would not want to shout out loud to the whole world "Look what a bargain! I have paid a lac & a half in excess to buy my Neighbour's Envey"
Hypothetical situation: I am driving a 5 year old sonalika rhino on a dark, rainy night thru the ghats. The vehicle is 10k kms overdude for service. I have another 200ks to go. Whats on my mind? I am be really really worried and doubt the reliability of the vehicle (Whatsgonnabust?, is it going to stop? whatsthatnoise?)

- Now imagine the same situation in a Toyota Qualis. Got the point ? Thats where the extra bucks went. To make the vehicle trouble free and reliable (Quality). This is IMO. Not printed to offent anyone.

Mods, Sorry for going OT.

Last edited by NIP : 14th June 2009 at 18:38.
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