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Old 14th June 2009, 19:52   #376
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I was one of the minority who didn't feel ANHC was that overpriced (atleast comparing to NHC iVTEC the comparable model), though poor interiors and lacking equipment did point to Honda premium.

However, the Jazz is definitely overpriced, highly overpriced in my view. Its a highly capable car - but the trims and engine make it somewhat average, while the price does not justify the car at all. And Honda has offered plastic mouldings, scuff plates, and body colored grills in two variants that are laughable as variants. They should have stuck with one variant ala the Civic when it was launched.

Last edited by lancer_rit : 14th June 2009 at 19:53.
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Old 14th June 2009, 20:02   #377
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Originally Posted by NIP View Post
Hypothetical situation: I am driving a 5 year old sonalika rhino on a dark, rainy night thru the ghats. The vehicle is 10k kms overdude for service. I have another 200ks to go. Whats on my mind? I am be really really worried and doubt the reliability of the vehicle (Whatsgonnabust?, is it going to stop? whatsthatnoise?)

- Now imagine the same situation in a Toyota Qualis. Got the point ? Thats where the extra bucks went. To make the vehicle trouble free and reliable (Quality). This is IMO. Not printed to offent anyone.

Mods, Sorry for going OT.
True. But what was the cost of the Qualis? The issue is really how much does reliability costs.

Imagine the same scenario with an i20. Now do you think that the 2 lakhs extra is worth the premium? I am not so sure. I simply think Honda is not targeting the middle class with this car.
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Old 14th June 2009, 21:41   #378
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According to JD power Maruti suzuki scored the highest in customer satisfaction index. Honda tops in initial quality survey. I have used Maruti for 11 years now and have never had a bad experience of car failing me. The point is quality and reliability are qualifiers in competition and not winners. You cannot ask premium on what is a "given" in todays world.
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Old 14th June 2009, 21:59   #379
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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
True. But what was the cost of the Qualis? The issue is really how much does reliability costs..
The price difference between Sonalika and Qualis was upwards of 1.5 lakhs.

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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
Imagine the same scenario with an i20. Now do you think that the 2 lakhs extra is worth the premium?.
I imagine you are comparing i20 base with Jazz (ABS+ Airbags).... Imagine a scenario with A Star Zxi and i20 Asta, A Star might end up being more reliable than i20, so is the premium worth?

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I am not so sure. I simply think Honda is not targeting the middle class with this car.
Depends on your definition of middle class. Many who drive a two wheeler consider themselves middle class.
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Old 14th June 2009, 22:17   #380
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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
True. But what was the cost of the Qualis? The issue is really how much does reliability costs.

Imagine the same scenario with an i20. Now do you think that the 2 lakhs extra is worth the premium? I am not so sure. I simply think Honda is not targeting the middle class with this car.
Premium for reliability! That's what is difficult to digest. I see someone agreeing to the point. Cars of today have a reasonable level of reliability built into them & therefore the point was that there is no logic to command a hefty premium for something that is readily available (reliability).

I searched for threads/links highlighting Jazz to be a VFM offer. Sorry! Couldn't find any. It is priced above what it could have actually been from the customer's perspective.

Now looking at Honda's perspective. Accord, CRV, Civic & ANHC are comfortably placed. So are the dealers. There is no one giving a serious fight for a market share (Toyota? Hyundai? Scoda? VW? Not yet.). Looking at the retail network, Honda's network is not structured to handle mass market. At least Ring Road Honda (New Delhi) will not be able to cope even with an additional 5% increase in the car park. Times are tough & Honda has a desirable car. Why not sell it at a premium? A hefty premium...err! add a little bit more. If someone is paying, keep it coming.

They did that with the Hybrid!

Last edited by BeamerBoy : 14th June 2009 at 22:20. Reason: Additional comment.
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Old 14th June 2009, 23:53   #381
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at least I am yet to hear plastic coming off of Honda City or rattling problems.
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one should rather charge 50k upfront and good better quality, than compromise on quality for the sake of keeping low initial cost. I am certain that the international Linea's have higher quality materials used and better build quality vis a vis India.
Yes, but on the other hand there are ANHC issues much larger than plastics posted in some threads here. Now that does not mean Honda cars are not reliable. right?
Ditto with Linea. ( OT but since you raised it, I feel its pertinent here.) There are only 2 members raised the hell here - me & 1 another. Pls check all Linea ownership threads & you would find the owners feedback including me how fantastic the car is. In my car there is a small plastic cap which is lost from below driver seat - should not be costing more than Rs. 25/-. There are no rattling noise in the car, no other issue at all. Still, I raised a hell, refused to Fiat to allow Dealer to address this small issue & insisted that I want to discuss the matter with Fiat directly about overall Plastics, being initial Linea owner. Do you know what Fiat did ?(and BTW its Fiat CEO who intervened & was interacting with me even for such a small issue - how many CEO does it for such a thing). They sent their Corporate Quality Manager (today- on a Sunday) all the way from Pune to Mumbai just to meet me & address it. For 10 minutes job, he spent half a day with me taking my every feedback & addressing my queries. Can you think of any other CEO getting involved for such a small thing & sending Corporate Quality Manager?
On materials whether Fiat has given International materials, I've checked some parts myself incl the plastic/ glue I'm talking about - they are made in their turkey plant.
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its merely the excise benefit that is forcing Honda to give us a 1.2 ltr engine here.
I think no one can force Honda else 99% of members on this thread would have forced Honda on Jazz Pricing

Anyway, lets stop here & let others also actively participate in the debate.
Relax, dude. I've always maintained that Honda would do well with Jazz & will meet its 20,000 units target
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Old 15th June 2009, 02:54   #382
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Originally Posted by alankarm@sancha View Post
What reliability do you talk about. Please access all my recent and erlier posts about the CIVIC owned by me. Also do keep the attitude of the dealers and company persons in mind. They will not help you out with anything, they will revise prices upto 6 times the original, without a blink of the eye. They play DIRTY, real dirty. and snooty.

I am posting the website where some of the photographs of the relevant items/problems can be seen http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post1345977 (Problems With My Civic And Honda Does Not Care)
Thats quite a painful experience. Why is Honda not intervening? Come on its already quite sometime since issues cropped up first time
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Old 15th June 2009, 02:58   #383
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Originally Posted by ada View Post
According to JD power Maruti suzuki scored the highest in customer satisfaction index. Honda tops in initial quality survey. I have used Maruti for 11 years now and have never had a bad experience of car failing me. The point is quality and reliability are qualifiers in competition and not winners. You cannot ask premium on what is a "given" in todays world.
Very True & very pertinent point here.

Maruti has been topping Customer satisfaction index for quite a few years consecutively. If like Honda, Maruti thinks of charging Premium for ensuring customer satisfaction, Oh no.
But thankfully Maruti is not Honda.
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Old 15th June 2009, 03:37   #384
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Lets end the arguing please.
Basically, all cars have some quality related issue, and that is true.

Our 2001 Accord (supposedly one of the most reliable) music system gave up playing CDs, and the power seats failed twice (or thrice) in its 70Kkm with us.
Our 2002 Palio had some small niggling issues when we got her, but that was it.
Our 2003 Corolla developed more rattles than the Palio and even had a part break in the interiors during its 50Kkm with us.
Our 2006 fiesta had some niggling rattles and one initial a.c. failure, but that was it.
GTO and others (including us) had some problems with our Mercedes in terms of quality
Some reports of new Civics, ANHCs having reliability issues.
and so on..

Whats my point?
Most new cars in countries such as India have small niggling issues with their initial batches, which get sorted out later on. Deal with it.
The linea might have some poor plastics fitted on and hence some small niggling issues, but honda charges a supreme premium for no reason, as even though it might have slightly better quality, there are members who still face problems with their cars.
At the end of the day, GTO has given us a beautiful review, and there is no denying that the Jazz is overpriced for what it offers. Once fiat gets the initial problems sorted out, the Jazz will still be overpriced and the GP should be as reliable for lesser money.

Last edited by lamborghini : 15th June 2009 at 03:43.
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Old 15th June 2009, 08:02   #385
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its already out on road
saw one yesterday does not look impressive at all for a 7L+ hatch
Swift or even I20 look way better
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Old 15th June 2009, 08:50   #386
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There was a traffic jam on Lavelle road on saturday and sunday. It was because of the mad rush at Dakshin Honda to see the Jazz. There was a huge crowd and queue for TD of the Jazz. I have never seen anything like it.

The only other cars that generated so much interest were the i10, Swift, ANHC and Civic.
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Old 15th June 2009, 09:58   #387
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Originally Posted by aseem View Post
I imagine you are comparing i20 base with Jazz (ABS+ Airbags).... Imagine a scenario with A Star Zxi and i20 Asta, A Star might end up being more reliable than i20, so is the premium worth?
They are not even in the same segment so the argument doesnt makes any sense at all.
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Old 15th June 2009, 09:58   #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamborghini View Post
Lets end the arguing please.
Basically, all cars have some quality related issue, and that is true.

Our 2001 Accord (supposedly one of the most reliable) music system gave up playing CDs, and the power seats failed twice (or thrice) in its 70Kkm with us.
Our 2002 Palio had some small niggling issues when we got her, but that was it.
Our 2003 Corolla developed more rattles than the Palio and even had a part break in the interiors during its 50Kkm with us.
Our 2006 fiesta had some niggling rattles and one initial a.c. failure, but that was it.
GTO and others (including us) had some problems with our Mercedes in terms of quality
Some reports of new Civics, ANHCs having reliability issues.
and so on..

Whats my point?
Most new cars in countries such as India have small niggling issues with their initial batches, which get sorted out later on. Deal with it.
The linea might have some poor plastics fitted on and hence some small niggling issues, but honda charges a supreme premium for no reason, as even though it might have slightly better quality, there are members who still face problems with their cars.
At the end of the day, GTO has given us a beautiful review, and there is no denying that the Jazz is overpriced for what it offers. Once fiat gets the initial problems sorted out, the Jazz will still be overpriced and the GP should be as reliable for lesser money.
Also i want to add one more thing. An individual who can afford to buy the Jazz is most probably in the 90% of people who change cars every 3-5 years. Modern cars are reliable enough for 7-8 years minimum. Hell Hyundai gives a 5-year 100,000 mile warranty on all cars in the US. Issues crop up after 7-8 which include minor niggles like electricals, suspension in the case of India, etc. Today the moment EMI's are over / 3-5 years pass, you itch to get a newly launched car. "Honda" is not "God" by any stretch of imagination and don't make it out to be this way. Every car has issues and you have to learn to live with it and deal with it. Its an individual choice, you don't become inferior by getting a car other than a Honda and You don't become a "Prince" if you drive a "Honda" puhleez. If you feel that way you seriously have lost it LOL. Peace!
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Old 15th June 2009, 10:04   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NIP View Post
Hypothetical situation: I am driving a 5 year old sonalika rhino on a dark, rainy night thru the ghats. The vehicle is 10k kms overdude for service. I have another 200ks to go. Whats on my mind? I am be really really worried and doubt the reliability of the vehicle (Whatsgonnabust?, is it going to stop? whatsthatnoise?)
Oh well you are making it sound as if the a car would start coming apart if not serviced on the stipulated km's. None of that will happen even with the Rhino because the service intervals suggested are preventive and not to the point where the engine and the mechanical parts will be on the verge of breaking down. Besides Toyota world over is known for reliablility, they are are benchmak, not Honda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NIP View Post
- Now imagine the same situation in a Toyota Qualis. Got the point ? Thats where the extra bucks went. To make the vehicle trouble free and reliable (Quality). This is IMO. Not printed to offent anyone.

Mods, Sorry for going OT.
Toyota Qualis reliability is legendary and in this discussion out of place IMHO. I dont think Honda is good enough with diesels.
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Old 15th June 2009, 10:13   #390
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Originally Posted by lamborghini View Post
Lets end the arguing please.
Basically, all cars have some quality related issue, and that is true.

Our 2001 Accord (supposedly one of the most reliable) music system gave up playing CDs, and the power seats failed twice (or thrice) in its 70Kkm with us.
Our 2002 Palio had some small niggling issues when we got her, but that was it.
Our 2003 Corolla developed more rattles than the Palio and even had a part break in the interiors during its 50Kkm with us.
Our 2006 fiesta had some niggling rattles and one initial a.c. failure, but that was it.
GTO and others (including us) had some problems with our Mercedes in terms of quality
Some reports of new Civics, ANHCs having reliability issues.
and so on..

Whats my point?
Most new cars in countries such as India have small niggling issues with their initial batches, which get sorted out later on. Deal with it.
The linea might have some poor plastics fitted on and hence some small niggling issues, but honda charges a supreme premium for no reason, as even though it might have slightly better quality, there are members who still face problems with their cars.
At the end of the day, GTO has given us a beautiful review, and there is no denying that the Jazz is overpriced for what it offers. Once fiat gets the initial problems sorted out, the Jazz will still be overpriced and the GP should be as reliable for lesser money.
+1000 to that.
Couldn't agree more
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