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Old 15th August 2009, 06:52   #376
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Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
these are moving parts and painting them is useless. Under working conditions, they would not rust. Also, the rust does seem to be superficial only. few hundred kms would get these parts back to shape.

You can always refuse to accept this piece and go for 'better' (only mentallY, not technically) piece.

This rusting is natural for every iron piece in this world and protection cannot be offered for everything. Calling FIAT an inferior manufacturer is unnecessary i think.
its oxidation and not rusting Comrade!!

Rust is a general term for a series of iron oxides, usually red oxides, formed by the reaction of iron and oxygen in the presence of water or air moisture. Several forms of rust are distinguishable visually and by spectroscopy, and form under different circumstances.[1] Rust consists of hydrated iron(III) oxides Fe2O3·nH2O and iron(III) oxide-hydroxide (FeO(OH), Fe(OH)3). Rusting is the common term for corrosion of iron and its alloys, such as steel

When in contact with water and oxygen, or other strong oxidants and/or acids, iron will rust. If salt is present as, for example, in salt water, it tends to rust more quickly, as a result of the electro-chemical reactions. As with other metals, a tightly adhering oxide coating, a passivation layer, protects the bulk iron from further oxidation. Thus, the conversion of the passivating iron oxide layer to rust results from the combined action of two agents, usually oxygen and water. Other degrading solutions are sulfur dioxide in water and carbon dioxide in water. Under these corrosive conditions, iron(III) species are formed. Unlike iron(II) oxides, iron(III) oxides are not passivating because these materials do not adhere to the bulk metal. As these iron(III) compounds form and flake off from the surface, fresh iron is exposed, and the corrosion process continues until all of the iron(0) is either consumed or all of the oxygen, water, carbon dioxide, or sulfur dioxide in the system are removed or consumed.
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Old 15th August 2009, 08:37   #377
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Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
these are moving parts and painting them is useless. Under working conditions, they would not rust. Also, the rust does seem to be superficial only. few hundred kms would get these parts back to shape.

You can always refuse to accept this piece and go for 'better' (only mentallY, not technically) piece.

This rusting is natural for every iron piece in this world and protection cannot be offered for everything. Calling FIAT an inferior manufacturer is unnecessary i think.
Well the problem in cases like these is that instances like this are not uniform across all manufacturers.

When I observed rusting on my Punto, I checked the following cars to see if this is "normal"
- a 5 year old Octavia
- a 4 years old Wagon-R
- a 3 month old Safari
- a 1 month old Innova

I did not see any hint of rust on these cars. (And I am not including the disc brakes here. I am aware that rusting on the discs is completely normal.)

Then another member : amit_mechengg reported that he checked his 5 year old Alto and there is not any rusting on the underside of his car either !!

In the latest incident : pineapple_ameet checked some Indica's that were in the same lot as his Punto. Those cars did not even have an inch of rust on them.

I have written to a friend of mine to check out the underside of the Grande Punto in UK. I am waiting for his response. Let's see what he says.
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Old 15th August 2009, 09:01   #378
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I am not sure that the "oxidation is not rusting" comment is technically correct, and I do not plan to research that academic issue either, but my view is that rusting is just oxidation that has continued to happen. And my guess is that corrosion is a word used for rust that has continued to happen! As it will in the case of all iron parts exposed to oxygen, that are not coated with something like paint.
More to the point, since I read this, the last time my Pajero went up on the ramp, I went under it to take a look and found that the propeller shaft is touched by a shade of rust in a few places. But the shaft is a solid shaft of iron, and for it to be touched by rust to an extent that it gets structurally weakened, will take maybe 20 years. Or more. On the other hand, if an unpainted/treated iron sheet was used in a body panel, the oxidation may make a hole in it in just a few years.
As far as discs are concerned, other than going for the exotic costly alloys, I am guessing that iron discs give the best stopping power, and these will rust if the car is not in use. But again, one application of the brakes will be enough to take this layer off, and keep it away in a car in use. So again, no big deal given the thickness of the disc.
So my take on this is that the rust you see is not a big deal, as long as you see it on just the solid iron parts. The only effect it will have will come into play long after the car has fallen to pieces anyway. The precaution to take for all cars is a high pressure underbody wash every few months, particularly during the monsoons, to keep things clean of other corrosive elements than the oxygen in the air/water. More so in places along the coast, where the salt is a factor.
Since Fiat personnel must be under instructions to bend over backwards at this time, they are humoring these requests - I am sure that in private they must be beating their heads in frustration!
PS: On reflection, I realize that my opening remarks may be technically wrong, but reasonably ok from a common sense real world standpoint. I would hate to be in the shoes of the Fiat GM, to explain to irate customers that this is just oxidation and not rust, and explain the difference! I guess what Fiat needs to do is to get all cars washed by high pressure water directed at these iron parts to pass customer inspection of the underbody. Fiat is the only company that has to suffer this, but this is a price to pay for its past sins.

Last edited by Sawyer : 15th August 2009 at 09:11. Reason: PS
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Old 15th August 2009, 09:46   #379
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PS: On reflection, I realize that my opening remarks may be technically wrong, but reasonably ok from a common sense real world standpoint. I would hate to be in the shoes of the Fiat GM, to explain to irate customers that this is just oxidation and not rust, and explain the difference! I guess what Fiat needs to do is to get all cars washed by high pressure water directed at these iron parts to pass customer inspection of the underbody. Fiat is the only company that has to suffer this, but this is a price to pay for its past sins.
+1 to that !!

At least in my case this was true since this was going to be the first FIAT in the family and I had to convince a lot of people before putting in 7 lacs for a premium hatch.

I remember a colleague of mine taunting me "My 4 lac A-star is spotless and his 7 lac Punto is rusted" !!
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Old 15th August 2009, 10:16   #380
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Originally Posted by amoghchaphalkar View Post
+1 to that !!

At least in my case this was true since this was going to be the first FIAT in the family and I had to convince a lot of people before putting in 7 lacs for a premium hatch.

I remember a colleague of mine taunting me "My 4 lac A-star is spotless and his 7 lac Punto is rusted" !!
DITTO in my case...and i still have not owned the fiat as of now
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Old 15th August 2009, 13:22   #381
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Originally Posted by amoghchaphalkar View Post
When I observed rusting on my Punto, I checked the following cars to see if this is "normal"
- a 5 year old Octavia
- a 4 years old Wagon-R
- a 3 month old Safari
- a 1 month old Innova

I did not see any hint of rust on these cars. (And I am not including the disc brakes here. I am aware that rusting on the discs is completely normal.)
If my guess is correct, you observed cars that were with you or near ones and were being used. They might not have been stationary in a open, humid warehouse for a month or two (just my guess).. You can blame dealer for not warehousing the car properly. But again calling Fiat "cheap" manufacturer is not appropriate. Frank's Ford fiesta and some other member mentioning his Ritz VXi proves the case of improper warehousing.
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Old 15th August 2009, 14:11   #382
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@ amoghchaphalkar

Congrats, though belated, on your new GP.

I'm getting one on Tuesday. EMpk Red.
I have not missed anyone's post on GP.
GTO's review helped a lot. Thank you.

BTW, is there a Punto User's Group, here on TBHP?
I would love to be a part of it.



The other day I was just speaking to my friend.
They should cancel all the driving licenses and get all the drivers,
especially the two wheelers, autorickshaws and the bus ones
special training classes!!!! When I thought traffic in B'lore was the worst, in Cochin I'm forced to reconsider that opinion. !
I'm worried that I might to wake up early and sleep late just to save my Punto from this evil world!!!

God save all of us.
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Old 15th August 2009, 16:55   #383
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Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
If my guess is correct, you observed cars that were with you or near ones and were being used. They might not have been stationary in a open, humid warehouse for a month or two (just my guess).. You can blame dealer for not warehousing the car properly. But again calling Fiat "cheap" manufacturer is not appropriate. Frank's Ford fiesta and some other member mentioning his Ritz VXi proves the case of improper warehousing.
Even though the cars are used, we had checked those cars during the time of delivery (its not the first time that I checked the underside of the car when I bought the Punto)

And as you can see, the Safari and Innova are relatively new. And in my earlier post I was not referring to the moving parts but the "fixed" parts.

See .. the issue is not about safety nor have I called Fiat "cheap". The only issue is that , if buyers are paying for a "premium hatch" they expect the product to look like "new".

I absolutely love my Punto and it is a wonderful product. But its human nature, when something that you love lets you down, you get upset !!

Anyway .. all said and done, I got a new car, Fiat guys are looking into Ameet's car ... so things can only improve.

What happened on Frank's Ford Fiesta is outrageous !!
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Old 15th August 2009, 18:05   #384
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@amogh,

Yes. We should not accept cars that have any kind of blemish be it scratches or rust.

In your case, what was the conclusion, why was the punto rusted?
Was the rust due to car lying in dealer's open yard?

As far as frank's fiesta goes, it was in an open yard for 3-4 months. And such rust is expected for sure on such cars.
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Old 20th August 2009, 11:10   #385
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Congratulations to all those for owning the Punto. My TBHP approval had got delayed so could not reply earlier.
Me too is a proud owner of Punto 1.3 Emotion, Med gray. Got it delivered on 7th Aug on my daughter's Birthday in bangalore. I have already clocked around 1000KM out of which around 300KM is on the highway. The FE is around 13.2km/l in city and did see around 18.4Km/l on highway. This was with HP normal diesel. I now have a tank full of Shell diesel which is also showing 13.2Km/l for about 85km now, inside city.

I request people who are posting their FE's to also mention which bunks (and place) they use.
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Old 20th August 2009, 15:59   #386
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Hi Guys,
I am new teambhp. I am also proud owner of punto 1.4 emotion pack untill I discovered few things.
1- Dealer(A-one Motors) not given me corperate discount.
2-Gear play started. Moving up and down when accelerate.
3-Left front door not opening from outside.

Regarding first point I have no words how I can define these dealer who doesn't care and spoiling the name of fiat. When I escalated to fiat and tata motor, I have been put on hold by fiat customer car executive for 25 mins with as usual reason I will update you after checking with the concerned department. And then suddenly my call got disconnected. Initially I assume its network error but when I tried that person again he is not in a mood to attend me. After couple of days they picked my call. Even before I would have speak, customer care executive start speaking " Sir, concern department will contact you soon". I asked "soon". What you mean by "soon". As per him "soon" stands for tomorrow. Tomorrow never comes.
They all have caller IDs in their desk phone. Whenever I calling with they keep no disconnecting my call. How would you expect *** from fiat and tata motors.
Most funny part is that they told me contact Territory Manager for Delhi and his mobile phone is always switched off. Even email which I sent to him get delivery failure. Now you can understand where fiat and tata motors stands in trems of customer service.
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Old 20th August 2009, 16:40   #387
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Corporate discount is in hands of dealer. So as buyer you have to make sure to ask them. Anyway there's nothing that can be done now.

Regarding other problems:
- contact nearest TATA service centre and they sould be able to help you straightaway.
- If TATA service can't solve issue, you go to next level: complain to Fiat (email service@fiapl.com and someone should take care).

As far as I have seen, Fiat has been VERY responsive with complaints.
I have no experience calling Fiat service helpline, but have managed to get things sorted easily at TASS/emails to Fiat.

Please have patience and follow proper escalation procedure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalpurja View Post
Hi Guys,
I am new teambhp. I am also proud owner of punto 1.4 emotion pack untill I discovered few things.
1- Dealer(A-one Motors) not given me corperate discount.
2-Gear play started. Moving up and down when accelerate.
3-Left front door not opening from outside.

Regarding first point I have no words how I can define these dealer who doesn't care and spoiling the name of fiat. When I escalated to fiat and tata motor, I have been put on hold by fiat customer car executive for 25 mins with as usual reason I will update you after checking with the concerned department. And then suddenly my call got disconnected. Initially I assume its network error but when I tried that person again he is not in a mood to attend me. After couple of days they picked my call. Even before I would have speak, customer care executive start speaking " Sir, concern department will contact you soon". I asked "soon". What you mean by "soon". As per him "soon" stands for tomorrow. Tomorrow never comes.
They all have caller IDs in their desk phone. Whenever I calling with they keep no disconnecting my call. How would you expect *** from fiat and tata motors.
Most funny part is that they told me contact Territory Manager for Delhi and his mobile phone is always switched off. Even email which I sent to him get delivery failure. Now you can understand where fiat and tata motors stands in trems of customer service.

Last edited by neotraveller : 20th August 2009 at 16:48.
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Old 20th August 2009, 23:51   #388
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Since Fiat personnel must be under instructions to bend over backwards at this time, they are humoring these requests - I am sure that in private they must be beating their heads in frustration!

I would hate to be in the shoes of the Fiat GM, to explain to irate customers that this is just oxidation and not rust, and explain the difference! I guess what Fiat needs to do is to get all cars washed by high pressure water directed at these iron parts to pass customer inspection of the underbody. Fiat is the only company that has to suffer this, but this is a price to pay for its past sins.
I hope now you get answer to a question that you posed in July'09 Car Sales Analysis thread & your 1st thread on t-bhp - i.e. why Fiat invokes extreme emotions - both positive & negative.

e.g. compare this thread with frankmehta's Ford Fiesta S thread. Here, nobody left a slightest chance to blame Fiat only (Sabne Behate paani mein haath dho liye). Whereas In Fiesta thread, nobody, none has raised even a finger at Ford !!
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Old 21st August 2009, 00:04   #389
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Originally Posted by VahanPujari View Post
I hope now you get answer to a question that you posed in July'09 Car Sales Analysis thread & your 1st thread on t-bhp - i.e. why Fiat invokes extreme emotions - both positive & negative.

e.g. compare this thread with frankmehta's Ford Fiesta S thread. Here, nobody left a slightest chance to blame Fiat only (Sabne Behate paani mein haath dho liye). Whereas In Fiesta thread, nobody, none has raised even a finger at Ford !!
When a celeb does anything - it is news. When a nobody does the same thing it is 'blah'. Rakhi's swayamvar was on prime time TV, nobody gives a rats a** when the poor girl in the chawl gets married. Likewise with Fiat, everything Fiat does (or does not do) is news!

Celebrity status consists of equal portions of adulation, respect, envy, fear and jealousy.

Cheers,
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Old 21st August 2009, 11:52   #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer
Since Fiat personnel must be under instructions to bend over backwards at this time, they are humoring these requests - I am sure that in private they must be beating their heads in frustration!

I would hate to be in the shoes of the Fiat GM, to explain to irate customers that this is just oxidation and not rust, and explain the difference! I guess what Fiat needs to do is to get all cars washed by high pressure water directed at these iron parts to pass customer inspection of the underbody. Fiat is the only company that has to suffer this, but this is a price to pay for its past sins.
I hope now you get answer to a question that you posed in July'09 Car Sales Analysis thread & your 1st thread on t-bhp - i.e. why Fiat invokes extreme emotions - both positive & negative.

e.g. compare this thread with frankmehta's Ford Fiesta S thread. Here, nobody left a slightest chance to blame Fiat only (Sabne Behate paani mein haath dho liye). Whereas In Fiesta thread, nobody, none has raised even a finger at Ford !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravveendrra View Post
When a celeb does anything - it is news. When a nobody does the same thing it is 'blah'. Likewise with Fiat, everything Fiat does (or does not do) is news!
OT-but related to ongoing discussion

Wanna check another example?

Everybody has decimated Fiat for Cost-cutting (Again Sabne behate paani me haath dho liye) even phrases like Quality or compromise etc etc. IMHO all companies do it. Its only that we take certain companies at face-value. Now check this out:
  • Maruti does not give HPS but gives EPS which is cheaper.
  • Most owners feedback is for most of the Maruti cars is that there are rattles/ niggles present.
But we don't say Maruti does the Cost-cutting. There is another way we put it - Maruti understands Indian customers better & gives what the mass wants & an allround package at an affordable price. Nothing wrong with this statement but notice the way of saying it for the same issue of rattles/ niggling issues.
  • Honda does not give HPS but gives EPS which is cheaper.
  • Honda saves cost by not giving Fog Lamps (IMHO, Fog lamps are a big safety measures particularly in foggy /rainy conditions)
  • Honda saves on cost by not giving Automatic Climate Control
  • Honda saves cost by not giving Alloys
Actually, these are major major cost-cutting as compared to mere plastics.

Nothing wrong in Face-value as its derived from years of hard work for a company. But then merely accusing only Fiat for cost-cutting is not entirely true.

Last edited by VahanPujari : 21st August 2009 at 11:54.
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