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Old 22nd August 2009, 03:34   #91
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i have one question only. where is the automatic ? i am not going to buy a huge car like this and change gears often in bombay traffic everyday. totally sucks i dont understand why toyota is so stingy with their autoboxses in india. corolla 4 speed and innova still no auto and this too. hello. toyota are you deaf, dumb or blind. indians have finally started to accept automatics, wake up
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Old 22nd August 2009, 07:43   #92
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When Toyota first showcased the Fortuner, it was rumoured to sell at about 12L. The Innova was selling at 9-10L then. Today the Innova sells at 12L and the Fortuner is going to sell at 22L?

Indians have definitely become richer and more ... !
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Old 22nd August 2009, 09:20   #93
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I do not think Toyota has ever got a prize for manufacturing good looking vehicles. What they do best is manufacture vehicles that are reliable, rugged and offer peace of mind with some practicality.

If the interiors of the Fortuner dont impress you then you will not be impressed with Prado interiors either. All Toyota interiors are plain bland. They still have no got over the CD era. No aux in or usb port. Sad that they are offering manual adjust for seats.

I think it is futile to compare the Fortuner with the Innova. The Innova is a house on wheels, minivan, van, etc. The Fortuner is an suv, car on stilts, etc. One cannot better the other and both offer their individual practical and functional usage and usp. As a discerning buyer one ought to know what you actually want before making a futile comparision between a van and an suv.

But I feel Toyota is ripping off Indian customers on the Fortuner considdering that many parts are out of the Innova bin.

But nevertheless this is a very good launch and a vehicle whos time has come in India.

Last edited by jaysmokesleaves : 22nd August 2009 at 09:22.
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Old 22nd August 2009, 10:39   #94
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^^ Well said jaysmokesleaves. But I don't agree on the ripping off point. Fortuner is CBU and hence it is bound to be expensive. Once they localise it then either they'll reduce the price or give lot more features in this price.

If we want to compare the Indian scene today lets compare the prices of CBUs:

In Malaysia these are respective price:

CRV - RM 143031
Fortuner - RM 172980

Fortuner is expensive than CRV by almost 20% and most prob will be expensive than others like Outlander and Captiva, but here Toyota is giving it as lesser or equal price. So it should be clear whos intentions are to rob.. and whos not.

I agree that they should have made it more luxurious, at least changed the interior color to black and dark grey, plus given some more features, but I am sure they will give those with AT.
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Old 22nd August 2009, 10:51   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ym-enjn View Post
^^ Well said jaysmokesleaves. But I don't agree on the ripping off point. Fortuner is CBU and hence it is bound to be expensive. Once they localise it then either they'll reduce the price or give lot more features in this price.
Fortuner is a CBU?? I highly doubt it.
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Old 22nd August 2009, 11:03   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ym-enjn View Post
But I don't agree on the ripping off point. Fortuner is CBU and hence it is bound to be expensive. Once they localise it then either they'll reduce the price or give lot more features in this price.

If we want to compare the Indian scene today lets compare the prices of CBUs:

In Malaysia these are respective price:

CRV - RM 143031
Fortuner - RM 172980

Fortuner is expensive than CRV by almost 20% and most prob will be expensive than others like Outlander and Captiva, but here Toyota is giving it as lesser or equal price. So it should be clear whos intentions are to rob.. and whos not.

I agree that they should have made it more luxurious, at least changed the interior color to black and dark grey, plus given some more features, but I am sure they will give those with AT.
IIRC, Fortuner comes as CKD and not CBU. If fortuner finally slots 22-24 lacs OTR, its a clear case of daylight robbery considering the large volume of parts shared between Innova and Fortuner. But when locally manufactured Endy and Pajero are also outrageously priced, why blame Toyota alone?

Not trying to justify the price, but Captiva is a CBU and hence expected to cost more.

I was expecting Fortuner to cost 17-19 OTR, but considering how Toyota's competition is already milking us, I should stop day dreaming!!!

Last edited by Digital Vampire : 22nd August 2009 at 11:15.
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Old 22nd August 2009, 11:20   #97
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The innova vs Fortuner comparison shows that many do not understand the difference between SUV and MUV.While an MUV is designed to carry more people comfortably on decent or slightly deteriorated roads, an SUV can transport same or lesser number of people
over bad or non existent roads.The seating position and ground clearance would be very different.SUV looks more macho than an MUV. But if your need is only a big car, then an M.U.V might suffice as well.
The Honda C.R.V is based on a modified civic platform.Does that mean that both cars are in the same league?Civic scores over the C.R.V in it's more futuristic interiors.
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Old 22nd August 2009, 11:57   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahil View Post
My hunch is that Toyota has had an early preview in all cities to get a feeler on the pricing. They have thrown expectations of the highest price ex showroom of 20 lakhs to customers during the preview to gauage their reactions. I hope they are following threads such as this to decide on a final price.
I can confirm that this statement is true. Monday's (launch date) going to be an exciting day. I can hardly wait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesal View Post
i have one question only. where is the automatic ?
Automatic will follow.

Quote:
I do not think Toyota has ever got a prize for manufacturing good looking vehicles. What they do best is manufacture vehicles that are reliable, rugged and offer peace of mind with some practicality.

If the interiors of the Fortuner dont impress you then you will not be impressed with Prado interiors either. All Toyota interiors are plain bland.
Including the Landcruiser 100 & 200 too!
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Old 22nd August 2009, 14:06   #99
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Considering the Current model the future lineup could be like this. This is pure imagination, only my thoughts.. (idle mind)

I will call this model GL as its got Xenon lights, Leather upholstery and likes.

Therefore:
GL manual 4x4– 20 L (Current Model)
G Manual 4x4 – 19 L without Xenons, and few more to cover cost.
G Manual 4x2 – 18 L same as G 4x4
J Maunal 4x2– 16.5 L strip down version
In petrol considering difference of 2.5 L in petrol and diesel
G 4x2 – 15.5 L - Petrol
J 4x2 - 14 L - Petrol

On the higher side:
GL 4x4 A/T – 21 L

VL 4x4 A/T – 22.5 L with Electric seats with memory, Sun/moon Roof, touch screen music system and MID, AUX and USB compatible, headlight washers, all 4 windows single touch, DVD player, air pressure, rotating Fog lamps, Ball tow hook in rear, black interiors, auto retractable OVRMs, relay for windows and OVRM auto close by keyless entry remote, ATs tyres 265.70 R17 n what not.

And so on… please feel free to add or delete features of your choice in your favorite model. I have added mine in the one I would like to buy.. (VL 4x4 A/T)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Vampire View Post
IIRC, Fortuner comes as CKD and not CBU.
Oh, I didn't knew that, I remember reading that initially for some time its going to be CBU.

Last edited by Ym-enjn : 22nd August 2009 at 14:11.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 00:24   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csateesh View Post
The interior from the snapshots does look rich and is carried over from the Innova as most of you pointed out but Toyota probably wanted to milk the market before CRV CTDi is launched.

So things have to wait till this is launched
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Hope this will encourage Honda to get off their butt and launch the Diesel CRV.
Guys, I think we are forgetting what the CRV costs now - close to 23 lakhs. I really don't think, knowing Honda, that the CTDi will be priced anywhere near the competition. Diesel, SUV from Honda? Jeez, you're looking at 30 lakhs. It'll compete with the Nissan Murano

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post
I think it is futile to compare the Fortuner with the Innova. The Innova is a house on wheels, minivan, van, etc. The Fortuner is an suv, car on stilts, etc. One cannot better the other and both offer their individual practical and functional usage and usp. As a discerning buyer one ought to know what you actually want before making a futile comparision between a van and an suv.

But I feel Toyota is ripping off Indian customers on the Fortuner considdering that many parts are out of the Innova bin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freewheelburnin View Post
The innova vs Fortuner comparison shows that many do not understand the difference between SUV and MUV.While an MUV is designed to carry more people comfortably on decent or slightly deteriorated roads, an SUV can transport same or lesser number of people
over bad or non existent roads.The seating position and ground clearance would be very different.SUV looks more macho than an MUV. But if your need is only a big car, then an M.U.V might suffice as well.
The Honda C.R.V is based on a modified civic platform.Does that mean that both cars are in the same league?Civic scores over the C.R.V in it's more futuristic interiors.
jay, free: folks on this forum get the difference between a minivan and an SUV. There is no doubt the Fortuner can do more than the Innova but that is not the point.

The question is how much of a premium should one pay for the added benefits of an SUV over another vehicle with very similar utility? It just happens to be the same platform from the same manufacturer and very similar on the inside. Is the premium of 8 lakhs justified?

For a lot of people, like me, who will pretty much drive this in the city, that premium is not worth it. Just as it isn't in the case of the CRV over the Civic. Although, Honda has at least done enough to make the two look and feel very different.

And IMHO if one really wants an off-roader, nothing in that price bracket, beats the Pajero.

Last edited by StarScream : 23rd August 2009 at 00:25.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 07:49   #101
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Here is an illustration of the pricing conundrum for a manufacturer.
Lets say that the car costs Rs 15 lakhs and I sell it for Rs 20 lakhs, and the market dynamic allows me to sell 1000 cars a year at that price, for a total profit of Rs 50 crores. Assume, that to get a return on my fixed capital, I need to get the Rs 50 crores.
If I was to drop the price to Rs 18 lakhs, I would now need to sell close to 1700 cars in a year - assuming for now that the fixed investment allows me to produce that many cars. Even if I were to drop it to Rs 19 lakhs, I now have to be sure of selling 1250 cars a year. A 5% drop in price, requiring a 25% expansion in volume.
The question is, will the market expand by that large an amount, @ Rs 18 lakhs, as compared to the one @ Rs 20 lakhs - will the number of people willing to buy @ 18 lakhs as opposed to @ 20 lakhs expand by 70%? On the other hand, if 1700 people are willing to spend Rs 18 lakhs for the car, will that number drop to 1000, just because the price is now Rs 20 lakhs? The other way to do this is to cut costs, so that the car now costs Rs 13 lakhs, allowing me to make the required profit at the 18 lakh price. But I have to be careful that the cost drop is not seen by the buyer as lack of features or visible cost cutting, because then there is a chance that someone that is willing to pay 18 lakhs, may also be willing to pay 20 lakhs for a car that does not have these lacks.
It takes a huge volume increase to make up for a price drop, and the car maker has to be sure that his investment can make those volumes, and the market can absorb them. If more investment is needed, then the Rs 50 crore profit is no longer enough, and all the equations change again. Plus, one needs to see if the sales outlets can push the additional sales that will be required in such huge numbers.
I know we love to critcize the car makers for getting their prices wrong all the time, but this should give a sense for the economics.
All the above does not take into account the competition and the moves it is making in the market. And the psychological effect of price on product positioning in the mind of potential customers.
Every car maker wants to maximize profit/investment, and the prices we see are based on this reality. Whether we like it or not.
Apologies about this for those who get this already, but many people do not realize the volume demands/complexities that are imposed by a price reduction, even in marketing depts of large companies, hence the post.
Personally, I see Toyota pricing the car at par with the Pajero. And that will mean that while some Pajero sales will be affected, that car will continue to sell at current volumes for some more time - it is too good a car not to. What the Fortuner will do is eat a lot more into the sales of the Endeavours/Captivas/CRVs, if priced at those levels.
It will be interesting to see what happens, but I expect a replica of the Jazz pricing disappointment to recur here as well, if the Landcruiser pricing is an indication of what to expect.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 08:01   #102
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Good post Sawyer. The economics of pricing cars is much more complex than most of us think. Dropping prices even slightly has a huge impact on the manufacturers finances.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 08:24   #103
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@Mclaren - thank you. I would love to be in Toyota just now, for the fun of grappling with this puzzle.
I suspect that what will happen for sure is that the Fortuner pricing will reinforce very strongly how excellent a value the Innova is for meeting the real ( as opposed to emotional ) needs of most Indians. And that will leave the Fortuner with a niche market, and I expect Toyota to price it on that basis. With respect to their other 4wds, and with respect to the competitor pricing, for the volumes they expect to generate for the car on a recurring basis, after the pent up demand has been satisfied.
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Old 23rd August 2009, 08:31   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ym-enjn View Post

In Malaysia these are respective price:

CRV - RM 143031
Fortuner - RM 172980

Fortuner is expensive than CRV by almost 20% and most prob will be expensive than others like Outlander and Captiva, but here Toyota is giving it as lesser or equal price. So it should be clear whos intentions are to rob.. and whos not.
Is it fair to call this robbing when one pays the asked price willingly, with alternatives available at the price, above it, and below it? Many times robbing is the emotional response to a price that is above my means.
More to the point, how is the Fortuner pricing in Malaysia as compared to the Innova?
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Old 23rd August 2009, 09:45   #105
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Fortuner is overpriced for sure. Being a CKD, it should have priced around Ford Endy.
We simply cannot compare Fortuner with CRV or Captiva as noth of these are CBU's (attracting maximum customs duties). Just think about it, if Fortuner were to be imported as CBU, Toyota would have gone nuts and would have priced Fortuner around 24 lacs.

I also doesn't see Honda surrendering meekly to Toyota. If Chevrolet, Honda and Hyundai can bring in Captiva, Diesel CRV, Santa Fe - all as CKD's they would be priced anyway near 15-16 lacs. From there on, it won't a easy going for Toyota IMHO. From now on, success will come to whosoever is more hungry and willing to invest in India on a long term basis rather than playing the safe game and importing these luxuries as CBU's.
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