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Old 17th September 2009, 05:08   #211
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Oi. I can't believe I'm reading this thread so late....

First things first. Superb review, GTO. Kudos. Very well written, and thankfully, complimented with the generous dose of pics as should be. Loved it.

I've always loved SUVs. The few BHPians who know me would concur. Dayum, I still miss my Safari.

More to the topic. Ever since the rumours of the launch erupted in 2004, no other car has grabbed my desire as much as this Toyota. Sadly, the rumoured prices at the time were hovering around 14-15 lacs, which brings me to my point. Hate to say this, but the car seems overpriced to me. It's VFM solely due to the fact that the car simply has no competition. Period. In Thailand, the Fortuner retails at approximately 12 lacs INR, close to what Toyota sells the Innova for over there.

I can't help but feel that we're being shortchanged. Sure, the Indian market is still nascent, but that doesn't mean that Toyota can fleece us? I do agree that no company is out here for charity, but.... imagine if Mitsubishi assembled the Montero over here and sold it for 23 lacs. the Fortuner wouldn't be so Fortunate. Neither would the CRV, Xtrail, Endeavour or Captiva.

In developed markets where choice is key, the USP of the Fortuner is its price, and VFM due to the same. A rugged, reliable, powerful workhorse at a reasonable price.

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Originally Posted by GTO
A well-priced 20 lakh product has 5,000 confirmed buyers in 13 days, but a premium-priced 8 lakh product has only 2,600 customers in 2 months! Stuff for a case study man.
Erm. I'm not quite sure if I'm on target here, but it purely seems like market positioning. The Jazz offers nothing more than the competition (Fabia, i20) apart from the staggering price. Besides, Jazz didn't capture the market's attention like the OHC did. No USP.

The Fortuner, on the other hand, entered the market with buyers salivating over it since inception. The prolonged anticipation, coupled to the fact that there is a dearth of SUVs that tick all the boxes in a SUV-starved Indian market struck home run for Toyota.

The Indian market strategy is not that difficult to predict. For example, if Skoda launches the Yeti diesel for 11 lacs on road, Skoda will have a booking list longer than the lines at Siddhivinayak. Guaranteed. Good diesel SUV/MUV=good chance of success. Addition of price+brand=long queue of buyers.
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Old 17th September 2009, 10:23   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuuj View Post

Another little point..which of these cars do you think will hold their value better when it comes times to resell 5-8 years down the line?

I don't think you have owned a Toyota buddy..because if you had, you would have known the superb after sales service where your job card is opened by a smiling executive is under 5-7 minutes of you parking your car and your vehicle delivered on time, every time at a very respectable cost.

My Qualis has done 1,55,256 kms and just had the clutch overhauled at 1,49,852 kms. it costed less than 8000/- (its ONLY major repair ever since 2003 when i got it!!)
Couldn't agree more. Even i am super impressed with the Toyota after sales service. Also theres no doubting the fact that Toyota's hold their value strong. My older Qualis had completed 90k odd kms in 5 years...And we sold it for 5.5 Lac which i think was extremely sweet.

And i am surprised where all this fuss about interiors comes from? Toyotas were never known for their interiors. All their cars have always had plain-jane interiors.
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Old 17th September 2009, 10:27   #213
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Originally Posted by razrman View Post
And i am surprised where all this fuss about interiors comes from? Toyotas were never known for their interiors. All their cars have always had plain-jane interiors.
No element of surprise here. When one spends close to 20 Lacs, impeccable interiors should be a norm
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Old 17th September 2009, 11:13   #214
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Originally Posted by Ricky_63 View Post
Their sales as of now are in the pits. Endeavour is the only one that is still doing ok.
The Endeavour is cheapest of the lot (compared to Fortuner, Pajero & Captiva) and will, IMHO, continue to draw some customers. Also, Ford made a smart move in using the 3.0 + Automatic as its USP in the recent launch. @ ACM, be sure to test the Endy Auto before plonking that deposit for it.

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Originally Posted by ACM View Post
3) The Fortuner has it's pros and cons, it's not a absolute winner but seems to be the best 20L 4 wheeler option in the maket today, but it will not meet all needs.

As a Car, Superb or Accord are better at that price point.
Absolutely. As stated in my review, the Fortuner is not for you if you want backseat chauffeur-driven comfort. The ride quality of an Accord is in a different league.

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Originally Posted by veyron1 View Post
but.... imagine if Mitsubishi assembled the Montero over here and sold it for 23 lacs. the Fortuner wouldn't be so Fortunate. Neither would the CRV, Xtrail, Endeavour or Captiva.
Too many ifs & buts, Veyron. Fact is, Mitsu sells the Montero for 50 lakhs OTR today. The Fortuner comes across as good value, when you compare it to other 20 lakh SUVs.

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The Jazz offers nothing more than the competition (Fabia, i20) apart from the staggering price. Besides, Jazz didn't capture the market's attention like the OHC did. No USP.
Yes, the price is the single most putoff about the Jazz. No USP either, especially when you compare it to the i20 which offers an equipment list longer than the Accord & Camry! Yet, as a city hatch, it is an exceedingly well engineering product. If only the price was more realistic.

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Originally Posted by 1-Testosterone View Post
No element of surprise here. When one spends close to 20 Lacs, impeccable interiors should be a norm
The interiors are impeccable, in quality, functionality and the way that they are screwed together. What people may miss is the luxury effect and pizazz.
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Old 17th September 2009, 11:21   #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
...the price is the single most putoff about the Jazz. No USP either, especially when you compare it to the i20 which offers an equipment list longer than the Accord & Camry! Yet, as a city hatch, it is an exceedingly well engineering product. If only the price was more realistic.
OT, but this was the exact question I put to a senior Honda official (and a neighbour of mine) a few days ago. His answer: Well, it's a Honda. Didn't quite know what to make of that...
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Old 17th September 2009, 20:53   #216
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Originally Posted by karpusv View Post
If I were to speculate, I would have mentioned that I was speculating.
Fender mirrors are fixed on the fender by drilling hole in it and after installation are rock hard kind.
In case of door mirrors (ORVM) even though being bolted, in case of a collision with a pedestrian, say, they would fold as they have the swing as a part of their mechanism. not so in the case of the Fender Mirror (more like a projecting pole).
First of all not all ORVMs fold. Even if they did they are still protruding and in addition they are exposing the sharp edges of their hinge mechanism.

Secondly, fender mirrors can also be made of the same material and can be made to fold...so your logic does not hold water.

Third, reversing mirrors are mounted up high on SUVs and vans that are high to start with...so there is no way they will hit a pedestrian.

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Originally Posted by karpusv View Post
Now coming to the funky & jazzy buttons.
Ever seen OE Audio? They all come with soft feel smooth buttons.
In case of an accident, if any of the passengers are catapulted into the dash or other controls, these OE buttons would cause minimal imjury as compared to the button you see on an after-market Blaupunkt/Pioneer/Kenwood/Sony/et al. So while they look funky and harmless, they can cause potential damage in an impact of say even 60kmph.
If it were not for this concern, all cars could be easily plonked with some ABC audio and offered to customers. (Isnt that too easy and of less cost investment for compaines?)

After market audios/equipment have sharp/distinct edges (even the volume knobs can have distinct edges).
First of all during an accident, the driver and passenger are flung straight forward and not towards the radio. If that was the case then what is the use of having airbags in front...mabe we should have an airbag coming out of the HU.
OEMs dont give aftermarket radios because they dont look good and are not integrated with the rest of the controls. they are not cheap either.
Thirdly, a button made of plastic cannot hurt you even if it looks sharp.
The soft rubbery feel is for grip
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Old 17th September 2009, 23:03   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
First of all not all ORVMs fold. Even if they did they are still protruding and in addition they are exposing the sharp edges of their hinge mechanism.
If you ram into a pedestrian, it will be fromthe front. You cannot ram into a pedestrian from the sides. So fender mirror is more a culprit than the side mirrors.
In case you brush against a passenger from the side of your car, you chances are you will scrape him with your side mirrors. not pierce.

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Secondly, fender mirrors can also be made of the same material and can be made to fold...so your logic does not hold water.
Material? Thats got nothing to do with the functionality. Yes fender mirror can be made to fold in some types. But, it would fold only from half way down, still leavigna projection right in the front of the fender.

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Third, reversing mirrors are mounted up high on SUVs and vans that are high to start with...so there is no way they will hit a pedestrian.
What in the case of a rear end collision where someone bangs into your truck with a mirror and is struck by it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
First of all during an accident, the driver and passenger are flung straight forward and not towards the radio. If that was the case then what is the use of having airbags in front...mabe we should have an airbag coming out of the HU.
There are more people in the car than just driver & co-driver. A special note about kids in the back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
OEMs dont give aftermarket radios because they dont look good and are not integrated with the rest of the controls. they are not cheap either.
Thirdly, a button made of plastic cannot hurt you even if it looks sharp.
The soft rubbery feel is for grip
Hard /sharp edged buttons are discouraged by manufacturers for reasons stated above.

A 2DIN DVD player that costs 17000 in the market can be obtained by a manufacturer for as low as 5500. That is cheap.

And wait to see what happens if someone gets a bang on the forehead or an eye onto a platic button. It does hurt. Hurtful enough for customers to sue companies. And companies dont like that do they
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Old 17th September 2009, 23:41   #218
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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
OT, but this was the exact question I put to a senior Honda official (and a neighbour of mine) a few days ago. His answer: Well, it's a Honda. Didn't quite know what to make of that...
They seem to be living in a fools paradise thinking that Honda is like Rolls-Royce and expect people to stand up when ever even just the name is mentioned.

In U.K., Honda is regarded as just a 'better than average' brand' and nothing more. It was ruling the roost here only due to absence of any viable competition. Now Honda stands battered by competition in every segment except for City. So why they are still so arrogant???
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Old 18th September 2009, 08:40   #219
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Have a Honda Dealership just beside my office in Bangalore. Now, I do not own a Honda, nor Im plannig to in the near future. But, these guys seem to be somehow courteous whenever I go to have a look at their place.

Same is the case with Toyota also. Thier dealerships welcome almost everybody when you walk in and seve with all the details you need.
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Old 18th September 2009, 10:15   #220
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I do not see reason to this on-going debate about a puny little RVM. Is the whole huge SUV as such not big enough to hurt a pedestrian in case of a collision ??

I really think this discussion of RVM folding / fixed etc etc is serving little purpose. Just MHO...





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Old 18th September 2009, 10:39   #221
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OK, this is OT but -
Quote:
Originally Posted by karpusv View Post
If you ram into a pedestrian, it will be fromthe front. You cannot ram into a pedestrian from the sides. So fender mirror is more a culprit than the side mirrors.
Have you seen the actual placement of the fender mirror? No way you can hit a pedestrian from the front with this mirror
Quote:
Originally Posted by karpusv View Post
What in the case of a rear end collision where someone bangs into your truck with a mirror and is struck by it?
Again, unless its a truck or bus, there is no way the mirror can be hit, its just too high up.
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Old 18th September 2009, 10:49   #222
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Everyone has valid points, however, the statement that karpusv made is true for the mirrors and even for the audio system. These are the norms. Check the ARAI website.
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Old 18th September 2009, 12:16   #223
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OT again, but why can't the fender mirror stalks be made of the rubber like thingy like in radio antennaes and maybe the rest of the body with soft plastic. Or better even if there is a folding mechanism like in the ORVM's for teh whole fender mirror.
Also in case of accidents as 'karpusv' mentioned kids can be injured and not to mention arms etc that are not held back by anything.
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Old 18th September 2009, 12:29   #224
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Default Fortuner Vs. New Endeavour

I had a test drive of the Fortuner today. Somehow I am just not impressed. My wife is of the opinion that I am biased becos of my driving the top of the range Lexus (LX 570) in Muscat for the past 18 months.

Has anyone tried the New Endy. (the so called Everest abroad)? Can our experts do a good comparison between the two?

Except for the so called resale value factor, I am of the opinion that the new Endy seems to be scoring a bit over the Fortuner. Any comments?
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Old 18th September 2009, 14:10   #225
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A friend who gets our cars financed and sources cars for instant deliveries has confirmed a 3Lakh rupees premium on the Fortuner for instant delivery,he says most of this premium goes to the dealership.
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