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Old 23rd December 2009, 06:31   #136
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your point on price is fine
but the sumo is really not upto the mark when it comes to ride and comfort in comparison with the tavera.
it is nowhere near the Xylo in terms of either features or VFM - nor is it as modern.
it is certainly better than the Bolero but it is way too big in comparison.
the poor grande was supposed to be an alternative to a Scorpio - indeed a friend of mine sold his scorpio and bought a grande - only to dump it 10 months later!
sometimes it is the intangibles that work - and unfortunately the grande just didnt make the cut

this is why maybe they should say bye bye to it instead of trying to flog it the way they are.

maybe if they revive the old Tata Sierra with a few modifications and of course all the latest bells and whistles, it would be a much more viable option as a private passenger vehicle! However they need a severe upgrade in terms of interiors, suspension, modernity overall to make that a success. Plug in the new 2.2 Dicor, the 4x4 from the Safari and there you have a nice SUV - which still looks very purposeful and stylish as a private passenger SUV alternative!

Quote:
Originally Posted by akhilesh51 View Post
Chevrolet Tavera starts at 7.85L, Sumo Grande starts at 5.85L. You do the math which one is the expensive people hauler.

What's worse:
No CRDI engine in Tavera. Sumo Grande does have both TDi and DiCOR.
Railway bench seats.
Terrible gearbox.
Low Power.
Pathetic Braking.
Looks are subjective but Tavera isn't some Snow White if Grande is "Ugly".

I totally think this vehicle has not got its due and it sure is a very capable vehicle. Yes, ABS and AIRBAGS is increasingly becoming features of choice but then, TAVERA also does not have either.

I personally think in a head to head competition, Grande totally ruins Tavera and that is why people should look into the hype. As for changes in MKII vis-a-vis MKI apart from looks:

1. Improved Braking
2. Improved Rear Suspension.
3. Anti-Roll Package (Minimum Body Roll out of all MUVs)
4. More comfortable seats.
5. Improved Gear Ratios for city driving
6. Massively improved steering.
7. Improved fit and finish and plastics.

I would agree it still is not Scorpio or Innova competition but neither is Tata planning to hit these cars. Primarily, Grande is aimed at Tavera, Xylo and Bolero. Out of these vehicles only Xylo comes any close to Grande in terms of features but there again, Suspension, Body Roll, Braking is way behind Grande. Test rides these vehicles for a self comparison.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 09:24   #137
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Maybe Airbags are overkill for a glorified taxi but ABS should definitely have been offered if they are targeting the private/family segment.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 10:06   #138
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Interestingly, when I was home (Thrissur) last month, I saw more Grandes than Xylos on the road there.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 15:22   #139
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In the Shankars Tavera Vs Akhilesh Grande MKII - I definately side with the Akhilesh

1) Looks though subjective, I would die if seen driving the Tavera, but though the looks of the Grande may not be worth dying for, they do exude a macho charm that at least I like.

2) Technology vs the Grande MKII has a more high tech engine and features.

3) Space wise the Grande MKII beats the Tavera hands down, so where is the competetion.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 17:37   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmx1000 View Post
Facts please.
The only thing I can agree on here is the dash which is still bad.

Leaf springs are also used on the Ford Endeavour.People still buy the Tavera which also has these as did the 1st gen Scorp.Not really a 'bad' suspension.The chassis is not dated.What led you to that conclusion?

The Grande is an all-new design (as of 2008) and frankly looks a lot better than a Xylo (not too hard to make that conclusion,is it)

The Grande is even a good alternative to a Scorp with the performance it gives.I have test driven one and it is quite responsive.The only thing I had an issue with is the dash.No other downs for this one. Market perception? I don't really know.There are no technical faults with this car.One of my colleagues' brother bought it and from what I know is quite happy with it.
Problems that made/make Sumo Grande less appealing to buyers thus resulting in poor sales are:

Grande is a great focal point of many negatives bundled as a package on offer for personal buyers.

The obvious Sumo Victa Dash board is a big let out.
Obvious Sumo Taxi/cabbie image.

Indica personal Vs Taxi buyer ratio will be 50:50 Where as in the case of Sumo Taxi Vs personal buyer ratio is 90:10

Taxi buyers wont think of TCIC Grande as still Sumo spacio is serving them. and TCIC Grande is more expensive to buy and spares will also be high hence flop in taxi segment. Terminating existing Sumo spacio/victa can only rationalize Sumo Grande TCIC to be the rightful replacement.

Grande suffered/ suffers poor sales significantly due to Tata's Wrong positioning of product. Grande has become Washerman's Dog.

Leaf spring suspension used on Ford Endy cannot convince a MUV aspirant as Grande is an MUV and Ford Endy doesnot suffer from 90% Taxi image either.

Leaf spring suspension could be the ONLY big problem with Ford Endy where as in Sumo Grande case Leaf Spring suspension is one among its various serious short falls.

I have not read Tata mentioning anywhere that Sumo Grande is built on an all new plat form. However I agree Grande exterior design is totally new.

The only good thing on Sumo Grande for personal buyers is its 2.2 VTT engine and to an extent Grande's exterior design.

Dated dash board poor lay out of other interiors / leaf spring suspension and NO ABS even as Optionbut are the deal breakers.

Mahindra Scorpio or Xylo doesnot suffer from bad brand positioning and hence sells and xylo has better interior lay out and hence sells to family personal buyers.

Tavera is proven for its extra ordinary milege with its hassle free TCIC engine and maintenance costs. Hence it serves to taxi market well. Sumo Victa/spacio TCIC sells to the taxi segment against Tavera. Why the taxi segment need an expensive Grande TCIC from TATA??

This time too Tata failed to meet the eye of the buyers with its Grande MKii is my opinion.

Last edited by harimakesh : 23rd December 2009 at 17:57.
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Old 24th December 2009, 12:17   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harimakesh View Post
Grande is a great focal point of many negatives bundled as a package on offer for personal buyers.
Not a fact . The 2.2 Dicor engine is a big plus.
Quote:
The obvious Sumo Victa Dash board is a big let out.
Obvious Sumo Taxi/cabbie image.
You surely mean 'let down'. Image is subjective. People even buy the Victa as personal vehicles.
Quote:
Indica personal Vs Taxi buyer ratio will be 50:50 Where as in the case of Sumo Taxi Vs personal buyer ratio is 90:10
Maybe.The Sumo grande is obviously an all new vehicle. I had checked it out
totally at Auto Expo '08 and can vouch it is not from the Sumo platform(even looked under the body to check that out)
Quote:
Taxi buyers wont think of TCIC Grande as still Sumo spacio is serving them. and TCIC Grande is more expensive to buy and spares will also be high hence flop in taxi segment. Terminating existing Sumo spacio/victa can only rationalize Sumo Grande TCIC to be the rightful replacement.
Maybe.That is a decision Tata may want to make in the interest of raising the brand image of a Sumo. But I think they don't want to kill that market.
Quote:
Grande suffered/ suffers poor sales significantly due to Tata's Wrong positioning of product. Grande has become Washerman's Dog.
Can you elaborate what you mean by 'wrong positioning'. What should they have positioned it as?
Quote:
Leaf spring suspension used on Ford Endy cannot convince a MUV aspirant as Grande is an MUV and Ford Endy doesnot suffer from 90% Taxi image either.

Leaf spring suspension could be the ONLY big problem with Ford Endy where as in Sumo Grande case Leaf Spring suspension is one among its various serious short falls.
I never said Leaf Spring is a problem even on the Endy. Sometimes leaf springs are the best . Example - the worst Indian roads.Any other suspension
will retire on them.What exactly are the problems that lead you to call it as a shortfall? I never found the Grande ride to be bad.I specifically took it over some bad roads when I test drove it and rode hard over those.No thuds at all.
Quote:
I have not read Tata mentioning anywhere that Sumo Grande is built on an all new plat form. However I agree Grande exterior design is totally new.
They don't really have to advertise product platforms.
Quote:
The only good thing on Sumo Grande for personal buyers is its 2.2 VTT engine and to an extent Grande's exterior design.
So it is'nt all negatives
Quote:
Dated dash board poor lay out of other interiors / leaf spring suspension and NO ABS even as Optionbut are the deal breakers.
Not if indian car buyers choose to overlook them.Lots of negatives of the scorp are overlooked, for example the bobbing nature on hard braking.Let me tell you the scorp feels like you're on the high seas on a boat.It rocks, but only literally.
Quote:
Mahindra Scorpio or Xylo doesnot suffer from bad brand positioning and hence sells and xylo has better interior lay out and hence sells to family personal buyers.
I agree Xylo was positioned well as an alternative to sedans
Quote:
Tavera is proven for its extra ordinary milege with its hassle free TCIC engine and maintenance costs. Hence it serves to taxi market well. Sumo Victa/spacio TCIC sells to the taxi segment against Tavera. Why the taxi segment need an expensive Grande TCIC from TATA??
The Grande is not more expensive than the Tavera. The mileage of the Tavera is nothing to write home about.It is probably 1-2 km/lt higher.The initial costs are higher with a Tavera.
Quote:
This time too Tata failed to meet the eye of the buyers with its Grande MKii is my opinion.
Only with regard to the dash
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Old 24th December 2009, 12:31   #142
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Yes victa's dashboard is a big let down, no offense to any scorpio owners but i think it looks much better than scorpio's dashboard. And about leaf spring suspension it may not be the best, but it isn't bad either as it does handle well , my observation is based on driving Grande over a period of time and not subjective to Just One Test Drive.

Last edited by driving_smartly : 24th December 2009 at 12:33.
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Old 24th December 2009, 12:45   #143
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Grande chassis dimentions are different from Sumo and also engine and body is different so it is safe to assume it is new platform.

Guys some things are plain perception for example in this thread somehow people think that Coil spring = new tech more ride comfort , Leaf spring = old tech and bad ride.

From point of view of mechanics both coil and leaf spring exists from ages , Elliptic leaf springs are harder to design IMHO. There are various kinds of leaf springs and main advantage of leaf spring is that it can store more energy and manufacturing cost is low
it is used in heavier vehicles for the same reason.

In some cases Coil Spring may give boat like handling and Scoprio mHwak and CRDe is the best example. Leaf springs can also give good handling and comfirt Tavera , Force Gamma , Grande are good examples here.
An elliptic leaf spring in Grande 1 was lot better then mHwak ( i did extensive test drives on broken roads and finally setteled for safari) I am sure that in Grande II that is improved so should be better

So before you give verdict do a test drive not on paved road where showroom guys want you to drive but on dug up roads to compare handling of Grande with others .
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Old 24th December 2009, 12:49   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Maybe Airbags are overkill for a glorified taxi but ABS should definitely have been offered if they are targeting the private/family segment.
Why not exactly? humans do travel in taxi as well ,When Taxi segment leader ( Innova) offer it in highest trim why not in Sumo ? I do not still understand why Taxi challenger ( xylo) does not have Air bags ( or may be there are in some higher trim ?)
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Old 24th December 2009, 13:03   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Maybe Airbags are overkill for a glorified taxi but ABS should definitely have been offered if they are targeting the private/family segment.

Tell me which car is not used as taxi? Haven't you seen Innovas, Scorpios, Lauras, Accords, Camrys as taxis? And yes, Mercs, Beemers and even Rolls Royces ( may not excatly be in India but are used elsewhere as taxis nevertheless).
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Old 24th December 2009, 13:44   #146
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@psagar:

Nothing wrong with Taxis. Don't take it personal.I travel in taxi's myself.

The point I was making is that if the target buying population is the taxi segment then manufacturer may not want to put in expensive gismos. You are right, Laura's, Accord are used as taxis but only for very high end use. How often h ave you flagged an accord or camry taxi on the street?
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Old 24th December 2009, 14:04   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmx1000 View Post
Can you elaborate what you mean by 'wrong positioning'. What should they have positioned it as?

When tata is un-decided on ending the life of its old UV sumo then there is no need to name this all new vehicle as Sumo again.

At MKii launch TATA person mention that Grande MKii is aimed at customers who look forward Premium hatches . Premium hatches are known for stylish dash board and great layout of interiors.

Look at Grande 's dash and interiors in reality no way it is modern or refined. For family interior layout is very important. Inside the Grande people are given strong reminding of the Sumo Victa which is too bad and too strong negative deal breaker.

Tata can not emulate thinking in lines of Toyota Land cruiserClassic; Land cruiser LC200 and Lancruiser Prado with their brand Sumo which has 90% strengh exclusively in Taxi segment.

New dash board design on Grande with ABS option and consolidation of "Sumo" tag and a 50K price correction for Grande MKii Gx will meet more eyes. Atleast I will buy one , deal makers will be a better Interior layout and dash with ABS option at 6.99lakhs , I will live with Leaf spring suspension.

Last edited by harimakesh : 24th December 2009 at 14:07.
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Old 24th December 2009, 14:33   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harimakesh View Post
Tata can not emulate thinking in lines of Toyota Land cruiserClassic; Land cruiser LC200 and Lancruiser Prado with their brand Sumo which has 90% strengh exclusively in Taxi segment.
May be they are thinking in line of Volkswagon Golf the original peoples car.
Why should every manufacturer be like Maruti in India positioning 5 generations of Alto with different name.
Lets face the fact whatever Tata's do they can never silence people who do not like their brand and are averse from taxi image so they are doing the next best keep the loyal customer base who swear by Indica's and Sumos by offering them next generation platforms with same brand.

Lets keep in mind Indica vista was a slow starter but after 1.5 years it has picked up so may be same strategy for Grande , I am not saying it will be sucessful but otherwise also there is no other way out.
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Old 24th December 2009, 14:54   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
May be they are thinking in line of Volkswagon Golf the original peoples car.
Why should every manufacturer be like Maruti in India positioning 5 generations of Alto with different name.
Lets face the fact whatever Tata's do they can never silence people who do not like their brand and are averse from taxi image so they are doing the next best keep the loyal customer base who swear by Indica's and Sumos by offering them next generation platforms with same brand.

Lets keep in mind Indica vista was a slow starter but after 1.5 years it has picked up so may be same strategy for Grande , I am not saying it will be sucessful but otherwise also there is no other way out.
Amit,

I respect TATA for their Nano, Vista and Manza iterations. They were fresh and sincere efforts from TATA.

The Indica tag with Vista and Indigo Tag with Manza did not create confusion as Indica range has been instantly rationalized upon launch of newer generation Indica Vista.

TATA had clear product position demarcation of old V2 catering to Taxi segment and the Vista catering to personal car buyers.

Although Indica has 50% taxi market as its customers Tata cared to offer private car buyers an all new interiors.

In the case of Indigo Manza it is a 100% replacement to out going indigo hence no wrong positioning of Manza happened.

in the case of Grande MKii it only reflect's Tata's poor sincerity in offering a truely new product to personal car buyers and Non rationalization of Sumo tag and poor ineriors Sumo Victa carried forward dash are nont convincing a TATA fan like me.

Let us call a spade a spade to make TATA heed to New era Indian customer's wants and needs.

I feel Grande MKii is a missed opportunity for TATA.

Name a premium hatch (i20, Jazz, Punto) which doesnot come with ABS like Tata Sumo Grande with a Rs.6.5 lakhs starting price? How Tata considers this segment buyers will consider Grande with its level of equipment? Premium Hatch segment is worth of 4500to 5000 cars a month ( i20 3500, Jazz 600; Punto 1200 cars a month) it is a serious segment and a new offering must match the existing competition in equipment just a bigger size of Grande MKii is not a deal maker.

Last edited by harimakesh : 24th December 2009 at 15:05.
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Old 24th December 2009, 15:10   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harimakesh View Post
Sumo Victa carried forward dash are nont convincing a TATA fan like me.

I feel Grande MKii is a missed opportunity for TATA.

Name a premium hatch (i20, Jazz, Punto) which doesnot come with ABS like Tata Sumo Grande with a Rs.6.5 lakhs starting price? How Tata considers this segment buyers will consider Grande with its level of equipment?
There we go with the dash again.The thing I too love to hate.

As far as the equipment level is considered, I think there is no point comparing hatches with the Grande MkII, Selling a huge vehicle with Airbags and ABS
at a hatch price will be like doing social service.Of course it might sell but
Tata will not make any money on it! The Xylo ABS sells at around 9.3 lakhs onroad in Bangalore. IMO it is the right price, maybe 30k too much but that's about it. An expectation of a Grande MKII at 6.x lakhs with Airbags and ABS is wishful thinking. Save ABS/Airbags , such a level of equipment is not expected
in this segment.
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