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Old 7th July 2010, 15:36   #2881
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Originally Posted by longhorn View Post
Can you post the source of your information. Could you also specify whether this is applicable to petrol or diesel or both? Correct me if I am wrong, but AFAIK, all the Figos sold anywhere in India are BS IV . In that case, i don't think Ford would risk selling BS IV models in cities where only BS II / BS III fuel is available if it would harm the engine.
@Longhorn: The source is the link itself (I found it on t-BHP only).

And to answer your question, this applies to both Petrol and diesel engines. Apparently, the difference is due to sulphur content which is very much low in BSIV and also difference in Octane numbers.

Also, BSIVs are tuned to be run on BSIII but feeding it with BSII which has 10 times as much sulfur as BSIV may put you to trouble. However, there should not be any BSII fuel available any where, but you never know.

Ford or for that matter any company could do nothing if the government norms disallow selling any new vehicle below BSIV norms (correct me if I am wrong). So this problem should be applicable to all BSIV vehicles
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Old 7th July 2010, 15:54   #2882
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Originally Posted by gemithomas View Post
Very True. For that matter all FIATs have a "something" with them that you dont get at any close price range. I think thats what every one call the "FIAT Soul".

My Figo handles superbly, gives good enough comfort even on slightly bad roads, has loads of space all around for a hatch, and you name what you want a car to do and it would do it good enough. But i always miss that "something"
Figo has got the spunk... it does things you never expect it would do by looking at it. The car surely has a character and I am telling you this after driving one for almost 1500 kms in 6 days
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Old 7th July 2010, 17:36   #2883
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Originally Posted by anilisanil View Post
Also, BSIVs are tuned to be run on BSIII but feeding it with BSII which has 10 times as much sulfur as BSIV may put you to trouble. However, there should not be any BSII fuel available any where, but you never know.
If this is true, then BS IV vehicle owners outside the 13 major cities are in trouble big time. As things stand today the govt has extended the deadline for implementation of BS III fuel (outside the 13 major cities) to October 2010. So if you are staying outside the metros and the other cities on the list, chances are pretty high that your vehicle is being fed BS II fuel.


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Originally Posted by anilisanil View Post
Ford or for that matter any company could do nothing if the government norms disallow selling any new vehicle below BSIV norms (correct me if I am wrong). So this problem should be applicable to all BSIV vehicles
What I meant is, if you look at Maruti, they were selling the BS IV Ritz Petrol from May 2009 way before BS IV was implemented in April 2010. They knew the markets in which the vehicle is being sold has only BS II/III fuel. I believe they would have tuned to engine such that it can run on bs II/III/IV fuel. I expect Ford also to have done something similar, ie although the vehicle is Euro IV compliant, it should have backward compatibility as long as it is being sold in places where BS IV fuel is not available.
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Old 7th July 2010, 17:42   #2884
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Originally Posted by longhorn View Post
If this is true, then BS IV vehicle owners outside the 13 major cities are in trouble big time. As things stand today the govt has extended the deadline for implementation of BS III fuel (outside the 13 major cities) to October 2010. So if you are staying outside the metros and the other cities on the list, chances are pretty high that your vehicle is being fed BS II fuel.
Did you even read the article that was linked to in the previous page?

Here is the relevant passage for your reference.

Quote:
An executive from Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers (Siam) quoted, “We have a particular concern about the unavailability of the correct fuel from April 1. The current range of engines is tuned in such a way that they can handle both types of fuels (BS-II and BS-III). The next generation engine, of BS-IV, will be more tuned to handle BS-III than BS-II. If there is a sustained mismatch in fuel quality for about a month, then there will definitely be a very negative impact on performance. Most likely, there would be a knocking tendency while acceleration, much reduced fuel efficiency levels and a long-term impact on the life of the vehicle
They are talking about the possibility of ALL BS4 engines (including Maruti's) being affected by BS2 fuel.

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Originally Posted by longhorn View Post
What I meant is, if you look at Maruti, they were selling the BS IV Ritz Petrol from May 2009 way before BS IV was implemented in April 2010. They knew the markets in which the vehicle is being sold has only BS II/III fuel. I believe they would have tuned to engine such that it can run on bs II/III/IV fuel. I expect Ford also to have done something similar, ie although the vehicle is Euro IV compliant, it should have backward compatibility as long as it is being sold in places where BS IV fuel is not available.
If Maruti is able to tune their BS4 engines to run perfectly fine on BS4/BS3/BS2 fuel, I am sure they can tune it to run great on Kerosense as well. Kindly read before commenting.

Last edited by Gilead : 7th July 2010 at 17:45.
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Old 7th July 2010, 18:58   #2885
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Mustang mentioned that the BSIII engine was fitted with a particulate filter to comply with BSIV. Also the DuraTorq is on its last legs.

One more thing - Oil companies will be making fuels consistent to all markets right?
So whats the question of BS2 fuel being sold in certain cities? There are not many refineries around are they?
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Old 7th July 2010, 19:08   #2886
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Originally Posted by Brix View Post
Mustang mentioned that the BSIII engine was fitted with a particulate filter to comply with BSIV. Also the DuraTorq is on its last legs.

One more thing - Oil companies will be making fuels consistent to all markets right?
So whats the question of BS2 fuel being sold in certain cities? There are not many refineries around are they?

Our oil companies have many refinieries, only a part of them would be upgraded to produce the fuel to the required norms (BSIII/IV etc.) This upgradation requires a lot of investment which our crash stripped PS oil companies cannot afford and hence the delay.

Like us, even the autmobile sector is worried about the wide range and standard of fuels available, it does effect their production lines.

Also, Maruti would be customer centric enough to "tune" their engines for all the levels, but other manufacturers cannot me. And however tuned the engines are using them with different grades of fuels would definitely effect your engine.

The first thing I would do is get the details of all the BSIV dispensing pumps in Pune
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Old 7th July 2010, 19:20   #2887
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On April 1st 2010 13 cities moved from BSIII to BS IV. All other cities were supposed to move from BSII to BSIII on that date but the oil companies got an extension till Oct 1.

Its the Government thats to be blamed for making car companies (privately owned) adhere to norms while they give extension to oil marketing PSU's. As always the customer stands at a loss.
I had raised a query on this and Ford sent me back pretty vague reply that i can use diesel available at my city.

Last edited by gemithomas : 7th July 2010 at 19:28.
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Old 7th July 2010, 23:06   #2888
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Considering that the price gap between the two was close 2+ lakhs, would you still buy fusion?

I think that was the crux of the problem with Fusion. Way too overpriced to be really considered as a hatch back.

Yes I would if i was buying a petrol car as i get a more powerful engine & if i were opting for a diesel car then i would go for the figo as i believe the diesel engines are same.
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Old 8th July 2010, 14:33   #2889
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Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
Did you even read the article that was linked to in the previous page?

Here is the relevant passage for your reference.

They are talking about the possibility of ALL BS4 engines (including Maruti's) being affected by BS2 fuel.
@ Gilead - I know what they were talking about and I did go through the entire article. They were mainly mentioned about the sulphur particulate content. AFAIK sulphur content is related to diesel engines and not petrol ones. And in case you didn't know, BS IV implementation was completed in the 13 major cities where it was due, from 1st April 2010, but BS III fuel implementation in the rest of the country has not yet happened. It is going on in a phased manner. The deadline for BS III implementation in the rest of the country stands extended to 1st October, 2010.

What I meant to say was I don't think that Maruti is dumb enough to sell a BS IV Ritz in a market where only BS II fuel is available if their engines cannot handle that fuel. Moreover do you expect that all BS IV vehicles will be run only in the city where they are sold without any out of city/state trips? And what you you expect them to do when they need to tank up, carry BS IV fuel in jerry cans with them? I believe the manufacturers ought to have thought of this issue when designing their engines.


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Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
If Maruti is able to tune their BS4 engines to run perfectly fine on BS4/BS3/BS2 fuel, I am sure they can tune it to run great on Kerosense as well. Kindly read before commenting.
For you information, Maruti vehicles were the only ones that did not have any sticking/gummy issues which were attributed to fuel quality right from day one (April 01, 2000)when the MPFI engines where introduced. Even the Santros were getting stuck on the road and Hyundai was blaming fuel quality all this while the same fuel worked perfectly in MPFI engined Marutis. Guess the Japs know a thing or two about building engines which the Yanks and Koreans don't.

Last edited by longhorn : 8th July 2010 at 14:46.
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Old 8th July 2010, 15:14   #2890
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Any idea about Euro V engines like the 'kappa'?
will they be 'detuned' for BS IV or sold just like that?
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Old 8th July 2010, 15:29   #2891
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Originally Posted by longhorn View Post
What I meant to say was I don't think that Maruti is dumb enough to sell a BS IV Ritz in a market where only BS II fuel is available if their engines cannot handle that fuel.
Sure, but if Maruti is not dumb, why would the others be dumb. A SIAM official has been quoted as saying that there is a possibility of BS4 engines being damaged through sustained use of BS2 fuel, so I would say that carries a lot more credibility than whatever you 'think' Maruti engines are capable of. If you have any proof that Maruti BS4 engines are completely unaffected by BS2 fuel, post them here. If Maruti BS4 engines are indeed capable of running fine on BS2 fuel and while don't, I bet Maruti will be trumpeting it all over the place. Since we haven't seen any of that, we can safely assume their engines are in the same state as others.

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Originally Posted by longhorn View Post
Guess the Japs know a thing or two about building engines which the Yanks and Koreans don't.
Guess you have never been lucky enough to experience a Mustang running a 5.0L V8 engine. Even if what you say about Hyundai MPFI cars getting stuck is true, how does it matter 10 years down the line. Like I said, go and get some independent proof that Maruti BS4 engines run perfectly fine on BS2 fuel and then we can have a meaningful discussion.
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Old 8th July 2010, 16:17   #2892
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Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
Sure, but if Maruti is not dumb, why would the others be dumb. A SIAM official has been quoted as saying that there is a possibility of BS4 engines being damaged through sustained use of BS2 fuel, so I would say that carries a lot more credibility than whatever you 'think' Maruti engines are capable of. If you have any proof that Maruti BS4 engines are completely unaffected by BS2 fuel, post them here. If Maruti BS4 engines are indeed capable of running fine on BS2 fuel and while don't, I bet Maruti will be trumpeting it all over the place. Since we haven't seen any of that, we can safely assume their engines are in the same state as others.
I never said the otheres were dumb. I quoted an example of Maruti Ritz beacuse I have 1st hand experience of it. Maruti Ritz was sold in Kerala from May 2009. AFAIK, only BS II fuel was being sold in Kerala at that time as was mandated by law. May 09-March 2010 is a good 10 months. Even if BS III fuel is available in Kerala, it is only after March 31,2010.The article says one month of sustained use and the engine's a goner. I don't know of any Ritz's engine that has conked off during this period. If you have proof of any, you are most welcome to share it here. I believe till then we can safely assume that these engines can run on BS II fuel.

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Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
Guess you have never been lucky enough to experience a Mustang running a 5.0L V8 engine. Even if what you say about Hyundai MPFI cars getting stuck is true, how does it matter 10 years down the line. Like I said, go and get some independent proof that Maruti BS4 engines run perfectly fine on BS2 fuel and then we can have a meaningful discussion.
Any car manufacturer worth his salt can keep on increasing the displacement and up the bhp/torque figures. That's no rocket science.
Come back when you have a reliable Yankee engine producing better bhp and torque figures than a Japanes engine with the same displacement. That will make for a meaningful discussion. Yankee engines are huge gas guzzlers which are almost solely responsible for the insane fuel prices you and me are paying today.

PS : I love the growl of the Mustang V8 but that's not going to change my opinion of Yankee engines.
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Old 8th July 2010, 16:25   #2893
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Originally Posted by anilisanil View Post
a sticker pasted on the left front door panel says the pressure should be 30 and 30 (front and rear) when unladen and 36 and 41 (front and rear) when laden.

I am running on 33 (front and rear) as I am laden with 2-3 passengers normally.
Another quirk from Ford India.
Every car has this sticker on the driver's side - the right front door!
They had to have the bonnet release on the American pattern for whatever reason, but surely this sticker could be pasted where a driver could read it!
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Old 8th July 2010, 16:42   #2894
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Originally Posted by longhorn View Post
I never said the otheres were dumb. I quoted an example of Maruti Ritz beacuse I have 1st hand experience of it. Maruti Ritz was sold in Kerala from May 2009. AFAIK, only BS II fuel was being sold in Kerala at that time as was mandated by law. May 09-March 2010 is a good 10 months. Even if BS III fuel is available in Kerala, it is only after March 31,2010.The article says one month of sustained use and the engine's a goner. I don't know of any Ritz's engine that has conked off during this period. If you have proof of any, you are most welcome to share it here. I believe till then we can safely assume that these engines can run on BS II fuel.
BS4 Figos have been running in Kerala from Feb onwards too, right? Ever heard of one conking off? Going by your logic about the Ritz running for a year without conking off, I guess we can safely assume Figos can run on BS2 fuel too. There is a difference between conking off completely and slow damage which is what the article is talking about. For all you know, something may be happening inside your Ritz engine too. Use a good quality additive just to be safe.


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Originally Posted by longhorn View Post
Any car manufacturer worth his salt can keep on increasing the displacement and up the bhp/torque figures. That's no rocket science.
Come back when you have a reliable Yankee engine producing better bhp and torque figures than a Japanes engine with the same displacement. That will make for a meaningful discussion. Yankee engines are huge gas guzzlers which are almost solely responsible for the insane fuel prices you and me are paying today.

PS : I love the growl of the Mustang V8 but that's not going to change my opinion of Yankee engines.
Displacement figures are mostly a factor of local laws and regulations. 660 cc cars get tax and insurance benefits in Japan, so obviously the Japs would be masters at producing small capacity engines. Just like how Japs can produce good small capacity engines, the Yanks and the Germans make good big capacity engines because that's what their customers demand. Our fuel bills are high due to govt. taxation. Let's not go OT here.

Anyway, looks like the Japs don't even produce the best small capacity engines. Take a look at this.

2009 International Engine of the Year Awards

1-litre to 1.4-litre: Volkswagen 1.4-litre TSI Twincharger
1.4-litre to 1.8-litre: BMW-PSA 1.6-litre Turbo
1.8-litre to 2-litre: Audi 2-litre Turbo FSI

Last edited by Gilead : 8th July 2010 at 16:48.
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Old 8th July 2010, 17:00   #2895
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Originally Posted by Indizen010 View Post
Another quirk from Ford India.
Every car has this sticker on the driver's side - the right front door!
They had to have the bonnet release on the American pattern for whatever reason, but surely this sticker could be pasted where a driver could read it!
True - everytime I need to walk to the other side to check it out.

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Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
2009 International Engine of the Year Awards

1-litre to 1.4-litre: Volkswagen 1.4-litre TSI Twincharger
1.4-litre to 1.8-litre: BMW-PSA 1.6-litre Turbo
1.8-litre to 2-litre: Audi 2-litre Turbo FSI
I like the Yankee engines - but awards are another issue. Like the Recognitions received in the company, all biased. Strangely all the companies that have received it are European. Strong German lobby.

Last edited by Brix : 8th July 2010 at 17:08.
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