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Old 22nd July 2011, 14:00   #4906
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Default re: Review: 1st-gen Ford Figo (2010)

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I'm planning to go under a jacked up Figo and trace the exhaust starting from the engine. That way I can ask "what is this" on every component. If there is anything more than turbo+catcon+muffler - we know there may be a DPF even if these guys don't know.

Let me see if they let me do that.

I checked all the dashboard warning lamps and there is none to show that DPF is at fault or something like that. And if the DPF is indeed there and it does not require any botheration from our side then so be it. So far as my research on this is concerned, we would not be needing any special oils rated for DPF cars, for simple reason that our DPF does not seem to go kaput, it goes on and on and on (or it does not exist :P)
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Old 22nd July 2011, 14:09   #4907
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Default re: Review: 1st-gen Ford Figo (2010)

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I checked all the dashboard warning lamps and there is none to show that DPF is at fault or something like that. And if the DPF is indeed there and it does not require any botheration from our side then so be it. So far as my research on this is concerned, we would not be needing any special oils rated for DPF cars, for simple reason that our DPF does not seem to go kaput, it goes on and on and on (or it does not exist :P)
If it doesn't exist - great.

If it does - then Ford may be screwing its customers for 1 yr now, and even Ford guys may not know about that.

As a product design guy I can tell you warnings to the middle management often do not go outside the design team of a dozen people (except in the vaguest sugarcoated package possible - it doesn't even look like a warning till **** hits the fan and the manager in question tries to cover his bottom)


I'm going through one of those things right now - I warned the guy who talks to marketing and he told them something totally different. Now our customer's product has problems due to our designs (they assumed capabilities that do not exist and didn't take the recommended precautions) and we are so far down the design path not much can be done about it - customer wants to release his product next month.

Last edited by vina : 22nd July 2011 at 14:12.
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Old 22nd July 2011, 14:48   #4908
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Default re: Review: 1st-gen Ford Figo (2010)

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Originally Posted by anilisanil View Post
I checked all the dashboard warning lamps and there is none to show that DPF is at fault or something like that. And if the DPF is indeed there and it does not require any botheration from our side then so be it. So far as my research on this is concerned, we would not be needing any special oils rated for DPF cars, for simple reason that our DPF does not seem to go kaput, it goes on and on and on (or it does not exist :P)
While we are still contemplating if there is a DPF or not, even if it's there, I won't expect it to have a seperate light on the dashboard. The sensor related to DPF should feedback ECU and in case of error code, it should appear as engine check light on dashboard. Since DPF is relatively maintenance free, I think, it won't be logical to have a seperate light for it.
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Old 22nd July 2011, 19:28   #4909
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Default There is no DPF on any Ford car in India - I don't know about Endeavour

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Originally Posted by amit1234singla View Post
While we are still contemplating if there is a DPF or not, even if it's there, I won't expect it to have a seperate light on the dashboard. The sensor related to DPF should feedback ECU and in case of error code, it should appear as engine check light on dashboard. Since DPF is relatively maintenance free, I think, it won't be logical to have a seperate light for it.

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Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
It has a DPF, like you mentioned in the early part of your post.


I'm sorry Mustang, you have been very helpful several times, but on this occasion I'll be correcting you

Unless the service center guys are calling the DPF a CatCon there is no DPF on Figo or Fiesta or Ikon.


I went to the service center workshop today, got under 2 Figo and 1 Fiesta (asked to see a new Fiesta -and they found a 3 month old one that was already jacked up) cars and traced the exhaust all the way from the engine to the rear exhaust pipe.

Each of them had only turbo+catcon+muffler - so unless the thing they are calling a catcon is a DPF, there is no way any of these two cars has a DPF. In fact there was no space between the turbo and Catcon to fit a DPF - the Catcon is right behind the radiator for those who are interested to know.

I asked about Ikon they said Ikon also has the same three things.

Their seniors technical guys told me I had missed the EGR valve - but they were pretty sure about no DPF. I'm kind of certain you don't have such a thing on Endeavour either - but then there was none on a hydraulic jack to verify and given its huge engine I wouldn't venture a guess (Ikon is anyway BS-3 so if they put a DPF on Ikon they would be fools to not put one on Fiesta/Figo)



Now why I don't think it is not Catcon - DPF would have been introduced in India no earlier than 2006 - the mechanics told me the configuration has been the same since then - even the old vehicles in the lot follow the same exhaust configuration.



Also to all those who worry about Figo scraping speed breakers - there is nothing under where passengers sit at all that can hit the speed breakers - only the passenger cab floor can hit the speed breakers, and while that is annoying it can not do any lasting mechanical damage - so not much to worry about. The exhaust etc. go through a groove in the floor and are well protected. In fact not even the floor but the steel skirting around the cab is the stuff that'll hit the speed breakers.
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Old 22nd July 2011, 22:50   #4910
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The final words on DPF in the figo :

I did some research and asking around and I can say that I was wrong and some members were correct.

The 1.4 TDCi does not require the DPF for euro 4 but it requires it for euro 5.

Hence the figo does not have a DPF now but when the time comes, the 1.4 tdci will receive the DPF to satisfy euro 5 norms (long time for that to happen)

To summarize : there is no DPF in the ford figo as of today.
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Old 22nd July 2011, 23:11   #4911
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Default re: Review: 1st-gen Ford Figo (2010)

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Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
The final words on DPF in the figo :

I did some research and asking around and I can say that I was wrong and some members were correct.

The 1.4 TDCi does not require the DPF for euro 4 but it requires it for euro 5.

Hence the figo does not have a DPF now but when the time comes, the 1.4 tdci will receive the DPF to satisfy euro 5 norms (long time for that to happen)

To summarize : there is no DPF in the ford figo as of today.

Thanks Mustang - this is final then. Euro 5 is still some years away, and may not happen unless govt. pushes for ULSD

This also means that many additives (IFTEX System D etc.) can be used without fear and also that the engine should not have excessive back pressure as people have mentioned on other forums.
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Old 22nd July 2011, 23:44   #4912
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Default re: Review: 1st-gen Ford Figo (2010)

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Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
The final words on DPF in the figo:...there is no DPF in the ford figo as of today.
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Originally Posted by vina View Post
Thanks Mustang - this is final then.

This also means that many additives (IFTEX System D etc.) can be used without fear ...
Wow, this is probably the best we could have expected. No DPF, no engine oil issue, no expensive replacements!

We spent SOME time discussing this didn't we? But it was very knowledgeable to say the least. Feels great to be in the company of folks like you.

On a lighter note, since this is now over, what shall we discuss tomorrow?

Vina - DPF or not, fuel additives are still a no no on CR diesels?
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Old 22nd July 2011, 23:56   #4913
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Default re: Review: 1st-gen Ford Figo (2010)

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Originally Posted by amit1234singla View Post
...

Vina - DPF or not, fuel additives are still a no no on CR diesels?

?? IFTEX System D was being sold by the workshop - it is apparently recommended by Ford (and many other CRD manufacturers)

That said - what is so special about CR - can you give some pointers about what could go wrong?
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Old 23rd July 2011, 01:08   #4914
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Default re: Review: 1st-gen Ford Figo (2010)

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?? IFTEX System D was being sold by the workshop - it is apparently recommended by Ford (and many other CRD manufacturers)

That said - what is so special about CR - can you give some pointers about what could go wrong?
Ford does not recommend any additives for diesel, it is clearly written in the manual.
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Old 23rd July 2011, 02:22   #4915
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Default re: Review: 1st-gen Ford Figo (2010)

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Ford does not recommend any additives for diesel, it is clearly written in the manual.

The SA recommended it - I didn't remember it either.

In any case, these guys did something in the service, the car is running smoother than earlier.

OR perhaps the last three days in auto made me miss my car so much.

BTW checked my mileage also - almost 700km over almost 50ltrs (I had had a 10ltr fill in between, otherwise it is tankfull-tankfull at the same pump at the same machine) so I'm getting 14kmpl I guess 1kmph traffic encountered both ways may have a lot to do with it.

Last edited by vina : 23rd July 2011 at 02:28.
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Old 23rd July 2011, 07:37   #4916
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Default re: Review: 1st-gen Ford Figo (2010)

So did the BSIV engines just get the EGR Valves? I'm guessing thats the change the new engines got apart from a slightly bigger cat con. Can someone confirm?
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Old 23rd July 2011, 14:14   #4917
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Default re: Review: 1st-gen Ford Figo (2010)

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Originally Posted by Mustang.101 View Post
The final words on DPF in the figo :

I did some research and asking around and I can say that I was wrong and some members were correct.

The 1.4 TDCi does not require the DPF for euro 4 but it requires it for euro 5.

Hence the figo does not have a DPF now but when the time comes, the 1.4 tdci will receive the DPF to satisfy euro 5 norms (long time for that to happen)

To summarize : there is no DPF in the ford figo as of today.
So if Figos running on the roads today don't use DPF, then what is the add on in the engine from Ford that makes it meet BS4 standards?

I have seen diesel Fiestas and Ikons running on BS3 Duratorq engines that produce black smoke when revved up a bit, but till date in Figo, I haven't seen black smoke being emitted from the exhaust. This might be that the fiestas that I saw emitting the black smoke are 2 to 3 yrs old and have run a couple of kms.

So if not the DPF, then what is it that makes the exhaust gases of the Figo diesel shed it's black shade?

I have even read and experienced that the BS4 Duratorq Figo gives a lower FE than the BS3 Duratorq Fiesta inspite being lighter than the Fiesta.

Is lower FE in Figo because of BS2 or 3 fuel being fed to the BS4 engine?

Here are the kerb weight figures:

Fiesta classic 1.4 - 1150 Kgs (across all variants)

Figo 1.4 Lxi - 1090 Kgs
Figo 1.4 Exi - 1105 Kgs
Figo 1.4 Zxi - 1115 Kgs
Figo 1.4 Titanium - 1130 Kgs

(sourced from Ford India Website)

Another question that arises is that does the new fiesta and the fiesta classic have BS4 engines? I hope so because in the metros it is essential to have a BS4 engine to sell the car and the pumps sell BS4 compliant fuels. In the metros, Ikon was stopped because it had a BS3 engine and currently Ford has completely stopped its production.
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Old 23rd July 2011, 22:29   #4918
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Default re: Review: 1st-gen Ford Figo (2010)

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Originally Posted by Diesel lover View Post
So if Figos running on the roads today don't use DPF, then what is the add on in the engine from Ford that makes it meet BS4 standards?

I have seen diesel Fiestas and Ikons running on BS3 Duratorq engines that produce black smoke when revved up a bit, but till date in Figo, I haven't seen black smoke being emitted from the exhaust. This might be that the fiestas that I saw emitting the black smoke are 2 to 3 yrs old and have run a couple of kms.

So if not the DPF, then what is it that makes the exhaust gases of the Figo diesel shed it's black shade?

I have even read and experienced that the BS4 Duratorq Figo gives a lower FE than the BS3 Duratorq Fiesta inspite being lighter than the Fiesta.

Is lower FE in Figo because of BS2 or 3 fuel being fed to the BS4 engine?

Here are the kerb weight figures:

Fiesta classic 1.4 - 1150 Kgs (across all variants)

Figo 1.4 Lxi - 1090 Kgs
Figo 1.4 Exi - 1105 Kgs
Figo 1.4 Zxi - 1115 Kgs
Figo 1.4 Titanium - 1130 Kgs

(sourced from Ford India Website)

Another question that arises is that does the new fiesta and the fiesta classic have BS4 engines? I hope so because in the metros it is essential to have a BS4 engine to sell the car and the pumps sell BS4 compliant fuels. In the metros, Ikon was stopped because it had a BS3 engine and currently Ford has completely stopped its production.

My guess is as good as yours, but here it is:
  1. ULSD became available in BS-4 cities some time ago, if the BS-3 engine wa already OK vis-a-vis the particulates (but had problems with respect to other emissions e.g. NOx, CO ...) then BS-4 versions will not require DPF
  2. There may be differences in the new CatCons installed - more efficient in removing CO and unburnt fumes with, perhaps, more back pressure - leading to lower FE.
  3. NOx reduction is primarily done in diesels via EGR and ECU programming. Both have changed as you have pointed out.
Not only Duratorq but several other engines in the world have gone through minor tweaking in the past to make them compliant with new emission standards.

Anyway, there is no DPF on Figo or Fiesta - you can check yourself if you wish by taking the car to a wash, jack it up and look underneath.

The exhaust has - turbocharger + catcon (right behind the radiator) then a long pipe to the back where muffler is located.



As for Ikon - perhaps Ford had to create space in its offering for "Fiesta classic" - that certainly would mean death for Ikon. Also Ford has embarked on a strategy of maintaining very limited platforms internationally (simplifies manufacturing and saves money) - Ikon may have been one of the victims.
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Old 23rd July 2011, 23:09   #4919
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Default re: Review: 1st-gen Ford Figo (2010)

Today, ran the car for the first time in test mode and made some observations regarding coolant/engine temperature.

The first start of the day at around 5 in the evening: 36 C

Temperature reaches to around 83-85 C with A/C on within 3 mins and hovers around there while driving.

If standing at traffic lights with A/C on temp reaches 88 C, then reduces to normal range of 83-85 C upon driving again.

But what worries me is that w/o A/C, during crawling traffic for a minute and then stopping for 3 mins after that, temp reaches 96 C. I open the hood and find that the radiator fan isn't working. After that I switch off the engine. Is this high temp normal? The high temperature warning lamp doesn't glow during this hit to 96 C. Although I believe that this indeed is quite high.

Suggestions are welcome.
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Old 24th July 2011, 00:07   #4920
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Default re: Review: 1st-gen Ford Figo (2010)

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Originally Posted by Diesel lover View Post
Today, ran the car for the first time in test mode and made some observations regarding coolant/engine temperature.

The first start of the day at around 5 in the evening: 36 C

Temperature reaches to around 83-85 C with A/C on within 3 mins and hovers around there while driving.

If standing at traffic lights with A/C on temp reaches 88 C, then reduces to normal range of 83-85 C upon driving again.

But what worries me is that w/o A/C, during crawling traffic for a minute and then stopping for 3 mins after that, temp reaches 96 C. I open the hood and find that the radiator fan isn't working. After that I switch off the engine. Is this high temp normal? The high temperature warning lamp doesn't glow during this hit to 96 C. Although I believe that this indeed is quite high.

Suggestions are welcome.

@anilsanil, and perhaps others can tell whether I'm wrong, but here's my guess:

If the radiator fan is common for AC's radiator and engine's radiator then the fan has to turn on if either of these two happens: (1) AC is on (2) collant overheats. When you have AC on then the radiator fan may be on just so that the AC's radiator can lose some heat. When the AC is off perhaps the radiator is off simply because the control system doesn't deem the temperature to be high enough.


Regarding 96C being high - keep in mind that (1) coolant is not water these days, freezing point is below 0 and boiling point is above 100 even at 1bar pressure (2) the cooling system for the engine is actually a pressurised system - just like in you pressure cooker, the boiling point of even tap water will be way higher than 100C. ergo IMHO 96C is not so high that you should worry.

AFAIK below 80C the lubricants are not too effective (a trade-off, in order that they be effective and chemically stable at 300C+ you have to make a compromise on min. temperature where they still provide good lubrication), so that is more like the minimum temperature at which the engine must operate.
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