The VTEC strikes back!

[Shan2nu]

Well, there are diff types of Vtec engines. The one mentioned by goldie seems to be the VTEC-E.

On our Vtecs the valves don't close completely, they just reduce the amount of lift at lower rpm which increases when the VTEC kicks in.

Shan2nu

[Floyd de Souza]

The NHC Vtec has a SOHC 12V/16V arrangement. In other words at a certain cut-off RPM(should be around 2500 rpm in the NHC Vtec case), the engine goes to the "wild" cam mode with all 16 V operational through a hydraulically actuated locking pin. In the wild cam mode, the intake valves cam profile differs allowing deeper breathing i.e. the valves stay open longer resulting in the power increase. Below 2500rpm, only 12 V are operational resulting in better FE. In fact, in city driving conditions, the i-dsi is more tractable and feels more lively. Its on the open road that the Vtec comes alive and goes "wild". Its brilliant..the DOHC vtec implementation even more so(at the expense of FE). Tech wise, Honda is a step ahead of most probably even Mercedes,BMW and toyota and that is why the premium for the badge. And the best part is that this technology is affordable.

[GTO]

Almost every manufacturer has variable valve technology now.

GTO

[goldie_malhotra]

Originally Posted by GTO

Almost every manufacturer has variable valve technology now.

Thats true, GTO - but its available mostly in higher segment cars - and city would probably be the most affordable car with this technology around.

At least with the city, you are getting more contemporary technology at mid-sizer prices. Other mid-sizers like baleno, fiesta petrol, accent petrol are still using old technologies.

Optra though talks of a VGIS technique, borrowed from BMW's VANOS - is it conceptually the same as variable-valve timing and lift ?

[imjimmy]

Tech wise, Honda is a step ahead of most probably even Mercedes,BMW and toyota and that is why the premium for the badge

Huh.. Am i missing something here. Have you seen the latest stuff that's come out from BMW,DC,Volkswagen etc..

At least with the city, you are getting more contemporary technology at mid-sizer prices. Other mid-sizers like baleno, fiesta petrol, accent petrol are still using old technologies.

Contemporary technology, Yes. But not at mid size prices. All the above mentioned cars are atleast 1-1.5 lakh cheaper than the NHC Vtec.

Lot of things have happened since the OHC Vtec came years ago. Now there so much competition. You gotta put things in perspective and wonder if a substantially cheaper fully loaded Fiesta or a slightly expensive Elantra would be a better choice.Let's see how the market reacts to the pricing of the NHC Vtec.

[shuvc]

Originally Posted by imjimmy

Contemporary technology, Yes. But not at mid size prices. All the above mentioned cars are atleast 1-1.5 lakh cheaper than the NHC Vtec.

Difference is 1.2 L with the Fiesta SXi, 1.5L with the Lancer, 2L for the Baleno VXi, 2.5+ L with the LXi

That, and I'm also wondering, what does this contemporary engine technology provide to most people who would buy the car that would really matter to them ...
Is the mileage significantly different from a Lancer/Baleno/Fiesta ?
Refinement maybe ... but then some enthusiasts do like the so-called 'coarser' Ford engines ..
Driveability .. all the other cars have it in adequate doses ..
Image .. that is a big yes ..

[imjimmy]

Refinement maybe ... but then some enthusiasts do like the so-called 'coarser' Ford engines ..

Nope Ford Engines are no longer 'coarse'. The Duratec engines in the Fiesta are very refined. The engine noise is almost nill at idle and you don't even hear anything when you crank up the starter motor(rotation) to start the car. The only indication that the car is started is the techometer.

Is the mileage significantly different from a Lancer/Baleno/Fiesta ?

The Mileage for the Baleno/Lancer is nearly equal(-5-10% at most) to the NHC idsi.The Fiesta's is not known.Let's see what the Vtec has.

That, and I'm also wondering, what does this contemporary engine technology provide to most people who would buy the car that would really matter to them ...

The Vtec is aimed solely at the enthusiasts(it's not a complete package IMO).. So let's see whether it is fast enough to win their hearts. Maybe an OHC Vtec owner can do a suitable comparison.

[RX135]

Originally Posted by goldie_malhotra

At least with the city, you are getting more contemporary technology at mid-sizer prices. Other mid-sizers like baleno, fiesta petrol, accent petrol are still using old technologies.

Having VTec is not the only benchmark for technology. Anyway, VTec has been around for a decade now. BTW, other variants than VTec, use 8 valves, whereas most modern cars are 16V DOHC. Do you think those NHC variants are outdated then?
If I can get 100 BHP at disposal, with or without VTec, why do I care?

[shuvc]

Originally Posted by imjimmy

The Vtec is aimed solely at the enthusiasts

True .. going by currently available info .. 0-100 times would probably be within 1s of the Fiesta/Baleno .. I admit that for enthusiats, 0-100 may be just one parameter ..
Yes .. we would need more inputs/test drives to understand how much more it offers (performance wise) compared to the competition ...

[shuvc]

Originally Posted by RX135

If I can get 100 BHP at disposal, with or without VTec, why do I care?

That's what I was thinking of .. and in similar lines ..
If I can get 12kmpl and 0-100 in 11 odd secs with or without VTec , why should I care ?

[Floyd de Souza]

I think we are missing the point here. I know 5 OHC owners who without batting an eyelid went in for the NHC. 2 were self driven and the owners did lament the reduction in power but were more than happy with the FE gain and the price. Many years ago I read that the Japs had a unique way of bringing a product to market. First the price a customer would be willing to pay would be decided and then the product built to that price(The Innova and City are prime examples). And they (at least the auto co.s) have been mighty successful at this. Theres also the theory of probability. Out of the millions of cars that move, how many meet with accidents? So its clear that max safety is not a priority but adequate safety is...so is FE and maintenance costs..and resale value...and peace of mind for the customer. That builds customer loyalty. Most of the time the J D Power rankings are topped by the Japs. The others are getting close. Tech wise, the Germans are probably in the same league(ahead in diesel tech), quality wise the Koreans are close.

[goldie_malhotra]

Originally Posted by RX135

If I can get 100 BHP at disposal, with or without VTec, why do I care?

The question is not merely about HP, but how it is delivered, and how much fuel it saves in the bargain, even when you dont need it.

BTW, other variants than VTec, use 8 valves, whereas most modern cars are 16V DOHC. Do you think those NHC variants are outdated then?

Far from it - they use a Dual-Sequential Ignition which delivers good drivability in the city traffic, giving FE of cars half their size.

What matters in the end are not mere figures, but how they are visible to the customer as a complete package.

And Japs have always been experts in extracting maximum out of minimum and then reducing that minimum even further - they seem to have an obsession with this.

[RX135]

The question is not merely about HP, but how it is delivered, and how much fuel it saves in the bargain, even when you dont need it.

Well! Even iDSI engine was much more hyped than what it delivered. An engine claiming to deliver 26 kmpl on highways doesnt go more than 16-18, which Baleno or my heavier petra can compare with. (Hate to bring Fiat in here, apologies).

Far from it - they use a Dual-Sequential Ignition which delivers good drivability in the city traffic, giving FE of cars half their size.

I get same power, more torque and decent mileage from my 3L cheaper car. Your hi-tech VTec does not have ABS/TCS/Airbags even as option. So, where is the technology? At variable valve timing? Now that is there for almost a decade.

What matters in the end are not mere figures, but how they are visible to the customer as a complete package.

I agree. And, it looks again more hyped than its worth. That is why I talked about Elantra earlier.

And Japs have always been experts in extracting maximum out of minimum and then reducing that minimum even further - they seem to have an obsession with this.

I agree. They, no doubt, are fantastic in production/process management and Quality control. But because of this, they tend to innovate more than inventing something radically different.

[VtecDeGr8]

Originally Posted by shuvc

That's what I was thinking of .. and in similar lines ..
If I can get 12kmpl and 0-100 in 11 odd secs with or without VTec , why should I care ?
[/left]

You should look at the engine refinement along with the performance. Ok...that could be translated to the fluent behavior and handling of a vtec at the low RPM and the rocking performance at high RPM. And the mileage part - on an avg I get 15 KM/PL in my vtec.

I don't think you can expect the same without this technology.

I guess there was a comparison of lancer with vtec with similar lines of doubts. Check out the following link
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...html#post29067 (Of Turbo-charged Lancers and Honda City Vtecs...)
Of course there were loads and loads of other articles in similar line...check it out.

[imjimmy]

If I can get 100 BHP at disposal, with or without VTec, why do I care?

A very valid pt IMO.

The question is not merely about HP, but how it is delivered, and how much fuel it saves in the bargain, even when you dont need it.

As has been said let's see if the NHC Vtec can better the FE figures of the Baleno and the Lancer.

What matters in the end are not mere figures, but how they are visible to the customer as a complete package.

It's not a complete package. Ride comfort and the rugged build is missing. You won't find the comfort of the Petra Optra or even the Fiesta in the NHC. Try comparing the ride and you'll know.

And Japs have always been experts in extracting maximum out of minimum and then reducing that minimum even further - they seem to have an obsession with this.

I think the discussion is about the cars sold here. And not about Jap Cars vs the Germans or American Cars.None of them have their best products here. Does Honda sell the Civic here. Does Ford sell the Focus here. So let's only compare the cars per se.