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Old 17th November 2010, 09:54   #16
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Default oil dissappearing ddis

Since I replaced the oil cooler the car has been fine-- no loss of oil.

I was lucky enough to notice the oil problem--i.e. much before the oil light came on permanently and much before any overheating-- and switched off the engine before any damage could occur (I did also check the crank and bearings, when replacing the cooler)

The tricky bit was getting all the oil out of the coolent circuit (it really gets heavily stuck in the Heater matrix)-- it took about a 1000kms of driving- flushing- driving-- flushing etc..
Also I took the precaution of changing all the rubber hoses-- though they were ok, fact is oil attacks rubber. Didn't want to risk a hose failure at high speed sometime in the future.

In your case-- the danger is whether the car "OVERHEATED" can your brother remember if: the oil light was on permanently whils't he was driving and whether the temperature needle had gone into the danger zone-- i.e. top of the scale?

The reason I say this is because personally I don't trust anything Maruti would say--- clearly they have a serious amount of embarrassment ahead
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Old 17th November 2010, 15:25   #17
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Wow 5 liters of oil! Its really difficult to fill up that much oil in that puny sump! Have they checked all the sensors of the engine and checked if there are any error codes being thrown up? Maybe the excess oil filling has damaged or screwed up the functioning of one of the sensors. That engine is complicated because of the number of sensors and precision parts used to make it so compact.

Since the issue is being escalated hold on for the time being, let maruti respond. And if the engine hasnt started after filling up the excess oil, no major damage should have happened. But if it has run for sometime, expect oil seals to be affected.
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Old 17th November 2010, 17:36   #18
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Originally Posted by Mevtec View Post
Hi gaddiwale it seems your car is ok.I think we cannot judge the oil level by mm change in the dip stick.Engine oil level should be monitored regularly.
Hi Mevtec,

I'm worried because with in 1671 km oil level has been dropped around 3 mm from the upper limit. Earlier with 4400 km there was trace of oil detected by dipstick. If this is rate of consumption, again oil level will go below minimum level of dipstick before reaching 20000 km! Thus, I'm thinking where all the oil is going? My running is atleast 50 km a day and monitoring the level every day morning. Will monitor for couple hundred kms before taking any steps.

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Last edited by gaddiwale : 17th November 2010 at 17:39.
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Old 17th November 2010, 23:56   #19
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Default Update (17-11-2010)

Hi all,

Like many of you had suggested mechanics at MAS are suspecting gasket failure.Tomorrow MAS is going to open the engine. Hopefully they can put it back and bring back the engine to normal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
Since I replaced the oil cooler the car has been fine-- no loss of oil.

In your case-- the danger is whether the car "OVERHEATED" can your brother remember if: the oil light was on permanently whils't he was driving and whether the temperature needle had gone into the danger zone?

The reason I say this is because personally I don't trust anything Maruti would say--- clearly they have a serious amount of embarrassment ahead
Thank you Kulvinder for sharing your experience.Your car is ok now because you made the correct diagnosis.DDiS owners should take the oil cooler problem into consideration when they are faced with increased oil consumption.How did you convince the mechanics at MAS to check the oil cooler? It seems my brother stopped the car as soon as he saw the low oil warning. Temperature needle was not in the danger zone. There was no fumes or smoke from the engine bay.

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
Wow 5 liters of oil! Its really difficult to fill up that much oil in that puny sump! Have they checked all the sensors of the engine and checked if there are any error codes being thrown up? Maybe the excess oil filling has damaged or screwed up the functioning of one of the sensors. That engine is complicated because of the number of sensors and precision parts used to make it so compact.

Since the issue is being escalated hold on for the time being, let maruti respond. And if the engine hasnt started after filling up the excess oil, no major damage should have happened. But if it has run for sometime, expect oil seals to be affected.
Hi jaggu,
the filling of oil is not the key problem here.The car at about 19000 km showed a low oil warning after the first paid service.On checking the oil level it was found that the whole oil has vanished in about 4000 km.The MAS service engineer told that he never came across such a problem till date.Then they changed the oil and send us away with out a job card and gate pass!They didn't bother to check the engine.My brother asked what the problem is?.They told us to come back if there is a recurrence of the problem!At 22,000 km after shutting down the engine due to overheating,the car has not started despite filling the oil and the coolant.

There are some mistakes from our part also.

1,We didn't insist on a job card.
2,We never knew that DDiS has such a problem.
3,We thought that every MAS will have good engineers.

Last edited by Mevtec : 17th November 2010 at 23:59.
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Old 18th November 2010, 10:39   #20
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Default Convincing mass

How did I convince mass to check the oil cooler?

I didn't--- they refused to accept my prognosis (of course I didn't bother telling them that I have 28 years experience of engine design and development including a stint in Formula1)

Just as a precaution I made a temporary oil cooler to test-- in case the new one was defective from the outset. This confirmed my prognosis.

Anyway-- long and short is my advice--- don't open up the engine!!

This engine is not complicated--- its just very, very sensitive i.e. the cylinder head is extreamly thin to accomodate the multivalve and jet arrangement-

just Opening it requires an immense amount of care- otherwise there is a risk of warp setting in.-- This has happened already to at least one engine I know of!!

What I would suggest is that you convince mass to take one from another car (which doesn't have this problem) fit it, drive a couple of hundred km's and accurately monitor the oil level. That way everyone can be sure.

At the very least make sure that MASS do a proper Compression test before deciding to open the engine-- and make sure they do it properly.

Maruti's compression test tool is part NO: 09915M68610 and 09912M57821

If the pressures are even across all four cylinders-- doesn't need to be touched.


If they don't have this tool-scream, shout threaten legal action and just force them to replace the Cooler Body -- my view: its better to risk 5krs for a new cooler than a screwed up engine
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Old 18th November 2010, 19:45   #21
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One piece of advice. If you don't have coolant, you can fill water for the time being and run (Though not advisable).
But never drive without coolant.

The only thing that can diagonise the problem is the engine oil drained.
In petrol engines max limit is around 3.4L. Not sure about diesel.
If amount of oil drained is more than what you filled in last time then coolant is leaking into the engine.
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Old 18th November 2010, 22:07   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kulvinder singh View Post
How did I convince mass to check the oil cooler?

I didn't--- they refused to accept my prognosis (of course I didn't bother telling them that I have 28 years experience of engine design and development including a stint in Formula1)

Just as a precaution I made a temporary oil cooler to test-- in case the new one was defective from the outset. This confirmed my prognosis.

Anyway-- long and short is my advice--- don't open up the engine!!

This engine is not complicated--- its just very, very sensitive i.e. the cylinder head is extreamly thin to accomodate the multivalve and jet arrangement-

just Opening it requires an immense amount of care- otherwise there is a risk of warp setting in.-- This has happened already to at least one engine I know of!!

What I would suggest is that you convince mass to take one from another car (which doesn't have this problem) fit it, drive a couple of hundred km's and accurately monitor the oil level. That way everyone can be sure.

At the very least make sure that MASS do a proper Compression test before deciding to open the engine-- and make sure they do it properly.

Maruti's compression test tool is part NO: 09915M68610 and 09912M57821

If the pressures are even across all four cylinders-- doesn't need to be touched.


If they don't have this tool-scream, shout threaten legal action and just force them to replace the Cooler Body -- my view: its better to risk 5krs for a new cooler than a screwed up engine

I think you should ask your brother to follow this piece of advise from Mr Singh, who has huge amount of experience in engine design and development.
And we should consider ourselves really lucky to have people like Mr Singh onboard with us in this wonderful forum .

Cheers.
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Old 19th November 2010, 15:54   #23
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A little off-topic but do not want to miss the opportunity to clarify this. Though I've been on this forum for quite some time now and the only reason I bought a swift diesel was because fellow bhpians guided me in the right direction, I still did something terribly stupid and wrong. I know I don't deserve your forgiveness but I missed my swift's 2nd service by over 2k kms.

For some reason I always thought that it was at the 10k mark but wanted to stick to 5k interval of oil change and hence thought that I'd take it to M.A.S.S at the 5k mark. Due to certain reasons I could only do so at around 7k and that is when I realized that instead of being early I was 2k kms late!

Now the dilemma is that since I've gotten the service done at 7k kms, which included oil & oil filter change (yes both) along with air filter cleaning, wheel balancing and 5 tyre rotation as advisable for front wheel drives, do I still get the service done at 10k only (car odo currently reads 10.4k) or extend it a little, say till 11k or 11.5k, and then slowly come in the multiples of 5 service interval e.g. 11.5k this time and then 16k and then 20.5k and then 25k.

I know this whole situation is pretty stupid of me but that's what it is.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 21:27   #24
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Default Update (23-11-2010) Bad news.

Major engine damage confirmed. Estimated the cost of repair is about Rs.90,000 The photos and details of the engine parts has been send to Maruti.Still MAS have not told us what the real problem is. Hopefully more details will be known by tomorrow.

The sad thing is that MAS is trying to find some excuse to void the warranty. The customer care is pathetic. They have denied that we had come for check up at 19,000 km with a low oil warning (no job card).My brother had insisted to explain the probable reason for an increased oil consumption (2.45 L in 4000 km).They didn’t bother to give a reason. Told him to come back if the problem recurs. He was very busy that week so trusted them. Now they are asking for the bill of the oil fill done at Hosur. Letters send to DGM service didn’t receive any reply.

I had lot of problems for Indica (Pre V2 Dec 1999).TATA never denied to replace a part in the warranty. Eg;its front right window winder was replaced 8 times. My uncle’s Indigo Dicor’s engine shut down with in first week of ownership. TATA replaced the whole engine without much fuss. But its very difficult to deal with Maruti.This is our first Maruti (probably the last one).Now what is the use of buying a Maruti.Indica Vista offered more refinement and space over the Swift. The quadrajet in Indica seems to be a modified version of DDiS.

We don’t know how to proceed if Maruti denies to repair the engine under warranty. Should we go to customer court ? Will writing to auto magazines help? Should we tow the car back to Kerala? Can Team Bhp help us?. Please tell your opinion.

Last edited by Mevtec : 23rd November 2010 at 21:29.
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Old 23rd November 2010, 22:23   #25
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Quote:
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Last month the low oil warning lamp appeared at 19,000 km and to our surprise the oil level had decreased to the minimum level. It was very unusual since the 15,000 km service had been done on time. So we thought that the routine oil change might not have been carried out at the MAS centre. There were no signs of oil leak or change of colour of the exhaust. So he took the car to one of the largest MAS centre in Bangalore. There the technicians checked the car for any oil leak or defects. They told that there is no problem with the engine and did a free oil and filter change.
.
Oopsss, that's really a bad news.
But did they tell you what was the root cause of this damage ?I don't think MASS will be able to find excuse to void the warranty as they will have a track of the free oil and filter change that they have done on your car, they keep a track of even a small nut which they fit on mudflaps so how come they dodnt have the track of the oil and filter that was fitted on your car.And also when they change any stuff they usually provide a bill for the same , isnt it ,so i guess you can reffer to that also .

Anyways ,keep us posted.
Also we have senior members here who can guide us in a better way to get this fixed .
Cheers
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Old 24th November 2010, 11:31   #26
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Really sorry to hear this-

Seems like your engine overheated afterall !!-- It really takes only a few seconds of an overheated engine being driven for serious damage to occur.

Unfortunately-- this is the argument Maruti will use-- There is another case very similar to yours, somebody in Jamshedpur about a year and a half back, unfortunately I've lost the details- but he had posted on a Maruti complaints forum- perhaps its still there.

Its a bit of a chicken and egg situation when it comes to establishing fault- The defect that caused the loss of oil in the firs't place, or driving the car when there was no oil in the lube system.-- i.e which one is to blame for the damage that has occured.

The only thing I can think of is that if you can get hold of the oil- cooler and then get it independently tested. You then may be able to argue legally that the responsibility is Maruti.

Unfortunately-- I don't know about in India-- but certainly abroad (UK, US) this would still not be an acceptable legal argument. There are two test cases in the UK of a similar situation- one with Mercedes and one with Nissan----

In both cases brand new cars were handed over to owners and the dealer had neglected to fill the engines with oil. In the Mercedes case a new car was replaced-- because the owner noticed the oil warning light before he had driven out of the Showroom premises- i.e clearly- the court held that the car was driven by the dealership itself in this state- even though only a few meters from the stockyard to where the customer was waiting for delivery. In the Nissan case the owner didn't notice until the engine overheated. Legally he got nothing from Nissan-- but the whole thing was embarrassing enough for Nissan to replace his engine as a show of Goodwill.

This may be the only way forward i.e. To embarrass Maruti enough to make amends.
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Old 25th November 2010, 09:14   #27
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Major engine damage confirmed. Estimated the cost of repair is about Rs.90,000 The photos and details of the engine parts has been send to Maruti.Still MAS have not told us what the real problem is. Hopefully more details will be known by tomorrow.

The sad thing is that MAS is trying to find some excuse to void the warranty.
Sad news. The worst part Maruti still not informed the owner about the real reason for such a high consumption of engine oil.

I've spoken to MASS over phone, they are telling this is normal (which I don't agree), taken an appointment for this Saturday for an inspection. Will inform you on Saturday.
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Old 25th November 2010, 12:04   #28
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Really sad to hear the news Mevtec. Feeling more bad bcos Maruti is trying to push it onto the customer.
Being a Swift Dzire Diesel owner, I am a little scared now. My car has gone 32K and is a couple of years old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaddiwale View Post
Sad news. The worst part Maruti still not informed the owner about the real reason for such a high consumption of engine oil.

I've spoken to MASS over phone, they are telling this is normal (which I don't agree), taken an appointment for this Saturday for an inspection. Will inform you on Saturday.
Gaddiwale: Do you still go to Vitesse Prabhadevi? Do let us know what they say.

Last edited by f1fan : 25th November 2010 at 12:05.
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Old 25th November 2010, 15:07   #29
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I was looking for your thread in technical section by mistake, but this is horrible. Dont budge easily, if the car was taken to the dealer then they should atleast acknowledge the fact that there was something wrong and was reported.

Shoot of email to all possible id's in MUL and insist that you would want to speak directly to regional service engineer about this.

Yes you are correct, Tata's are much more accommodative when it comes to such issues of warranty!
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Old 25th November 2010, 15:31   #30
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No company will accept the fault as their own!

I basically got fed up with maruti service and it was the last straw to sell the car.

Has been fighting with HP over their laptop failure due to design issues. Now even a forum is there HP Lies: The nVidia Defect

Ford also seems moving the same way. Their customer service number was not working for 2 weeks. When you get forwarded to voice mail box, the mail box will give message "Mail Box Full. Please try later". I am yet to get my warranty card from Ford(6 months!)

The service level is seriously deteriorating once volumes start coming in! Attitude changes with volume and long waiting list!
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