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Old 30th November 2010, 00:04   #46
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Mevtec-

Havn't had time to write a better prognosis, will do tomorrow-

But from the listing-- there are a few things that don't sound right to me.

You said earlier that "pictures were sent to Maruti" of the parts- can you let me see these?.- and measurements?

Basically find that a new "short Engine" a little strange-- coupled with a new oil body unit yet no new oil-pump- or cylinder head work. Will explain later, but for now-- maruti warranty etc.. is going to be difficult. They are going to claim that you drove the car without Oil, and this caused the damage-- which unfortunately cannot be denied!! The issue of what caused the oil- loss in the firs't place ends up being secondary, and even if this can be proved( the Mas will deny complete knowledge of this- because otherwise the responsibility is with them and not Maruti!!)
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Old 30th November 2010, 19:30   #47
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I know this engine and the bottom half is the familiar FIAT FIRE petrol engine- in the early 90’s I built one to 150 bhp!!—the engine, bottom half, can take a lot of pounding.


1. Yet the only reasons that this part of the engine would need replacing as opposed to rebuilding (that is regrinding, new rings, bearings and possibly pistons etc are:


a. The casing (the Block) is warped or cracked.
b. The bores are damaged beyond- 69.620 mm diameter. I.e they can’t be rebored to 69.630 max
c. Its easier and possibly cheaper to just get a new ready assembled one from the manufacturer.- The part no. quoted is for the complete bottom half- including crankshaft, pistons, bearings etc. ready assembled. (also- SA’s tend to prefer this option, as then the future warranty on this part is with the manufacturer and not on the SA’s quality of labour.)

2. Gasket Set No.3—contains all the gaskets—except Head Gasket—so don’t understand why they have quoted for extra gaskets-
3. Likewise the crankshaft oil seals- the Short engine comes ready assembled, including crankshaft seals.


These two above- might sound minor, in the scale of things, but it does lead to questions about the SA’s competence.


4. They have quoted for a OIL BODY/COOLER assembly unit—this unit apart from a plastic return valve arrangement- and oil filler pipe, has no moving parts—I just cannot see how this can be damaged, by the Engine overheating!--- Perhaps, they have worked out that this unit is defective, in which case it’s the root cause of the problem.
5. They have quoted for an OIL STRAINER unit—this unit is simply a square section tube with a stainless steel mesh at one end. No moving parts. It is even less conceivable that this unit is damaged.


What they have not quoted for:
1. Oil pump and housing: The oil pump (is a moving part) is driven of the crankshaft and lubricates itself with the same oil that lubricates the rest of the engine. Given that the entire bottom half of the engine is damaged (as claimed)- it is inconceivable that the Oil Pump is not!!
If the Oil Body and Oil Strainer are damaged (as claimed)- it is inconceivable that the Oil Pump Housing is not!

2. HEAD GASKET AND CYLINDER HEAD BOLTS.
On all modern aluminium cylinder heads (especially multi valve) the head gasket and bolts have to be changed every time the engine is opened—even if there is no damage. i.e. even if its only opened for observation.
Perhaps the SA has not quoted for this because:
a. The SA has found the gasket undamaged—(in which case, goes back to the root cause being the Oil- Cooler or a leak).
However if the SA is planning to use the same head gasket and bolts—then He is highly INCOMPETENT!!

b. He won’t know which grade of Head Gasket to use until he has the short engine.
There are only three grades of Head Gasket for this engine—they all cost exactly the same!


But—this is the crucial point. The head gasket can only be changed 2 times (and possibly – once depending on Maruti’s manufacturing quality) with 1 grind possible if the factory installed head gasket is type A or B. If it is C then the cylinder head has to be replaced.


I get the feeling that your SA has not checked the Cylinder Head height.


Earlier you had mentioned that the Engine was cranking but not starting. So I am very surprised that a cylinder compression/pressure test was not done by the SA before opening the engine.
This is like someone with chest pain going to a doctor- the Doctor decides to immediately take a scalpel and cut open the patients chest- to see if there is anything wrong with the heart.



Earlier you had also said that the Oil Warning light was not on permanently and that the temperature needle had not gone into the danger zone- when you switched off the engine.
Can you also remember if at the time- before switching off the engine, there was an inordinate amount of noise—valve clatter, grating etc… and a loss of power.
Normally when the engine is about to overheat – there is still enough airflow (if the car is moving) around the engine to slow down- a little- the critical overheat point, at this point the thing to do is to drop the clutch, put neutral- coast the car whils’t switching off the engine.
If the car is still being driven when it has reached critical point- then everything goes.!!
If the car is halted and then the engine switched off near to critical- the bit of oil left “Flashes” to almost “White Hot”. This Fry’s the bearings, seals and “Glazes” the cylinders.
This is not such a serious condition- new bearings, rings rebore etc.. and the engine is as good as new.



Suggestions:
- Get someone more competent to do a diagnosis of the engine.
-Get hold of the OIL COOLER UNIT and HEADGASKET.
-Talk to maruti and let them know that you are going to get the oil cooler independently tested and examined ( Believe Maruti know about the Oil Cooler problem)
- On the basis of this negotiate for a full warranty replacement of the entire engine. Don’t even think off the SA fitting your old Cylinder Head on a new Short Engine—they will screw it up completely.
- Your second position with maruti would be to meet half-way on a new complete engine.
-Finally if Maruti don’t budge, and you have to pay yourself- get a costing on a new complete engine—both top and bottom halfs together are going to cost the same as- the SA using the old Cylinder Head on a new Short Engine>
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Old 30th November 2010, 22:55   #48
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Default Update 30-11-2010.Bad news.

Maruti has informed us that they cannot repair the car under warranty.

The main reasons told.

1, They have no evidence of the initial MAS visit.

2, Headlamp bulb had been changed to higher watt halogen (Not even Xenon).They says it is a reason to void the warranty.

Please believe me. These are the reasons told to void the warranty by India's biggest car manufacturer. I am in no mood to type further. I am taking up the matter to Maruti.My brother (younger) is too nice to deal with these guys. Hope my earlier experience with TASS will be useful. Please PM me any e-mail id of Maruti (other than we get in the website) you think that will be useful.


Dear Kulvinder Singh Sir,
I thank you for the detailed evaluation of the problem. Thank you for spending your precious time for us. We are fortunate to have people like you in the forum. It is even worrying to know that these guys are dumb (or acting dumb).Please continue to support. Will update on the issue.
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Old 1st December 2010, 00:58   #49
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Mevtec@ I can kind of feel what you are going through. I had to push Maruti a lot of times for part replacements in the gearbox, Clutch, Brakes etc under warranty and they are pretty brilliant at giving reasons as to why you would not get warranty.

I Suggest you take this up to the regional office with a warning of going consumer court if the issue is not resolved.

Paying to get all this repaired in a car under warranty is utterly nonsense.

DON't PAY UP, No matter what, from Mr Kulvinder's description it seems like the MASS people don't know what they are doing and are just experimenting with your car. Don't let them. Take second opinions and do get the regional head involved. Also call the customer care number and register a complaint with all the details. Maruti takes complaints very seriously.

Cheers and I hope your DDIS is back on the road again healthy.
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Old 1st December 2010, 02:26   #50
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I am sorry to hear about your condition. I "totally" understand your apathy at this stage. I say that because I was in a scarily similar situation a year back. Though the cause was different the problem and result was similar.

I have fought a bitter battle (though not legal) with the dishonest and pathetic Royal Sundaram insurance co. and Maruti.

I kind of hate to go back through the entire incident, since it's bad memories. But please visit my following thread and let me know incase I can be of any help.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...eaters-10.html (Swift Dzrie Vdi Rightful Insurance claim denied - Beware of Royal Sundaram CHEATERS !)

Bhavesh
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Old 1st December 2010, 14:29   #51
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I would suggest you write to Maruti and also send them a link to this thread. Also, tell them that we all know about the oil cooler problem and we are going to spread it like wildfire! Also, I would ask you to request the Mods to help you out as they have a lot of contacts at the manufacturers end. I am sure you will get all the help.
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Old 1st December 2010, 17:29   #52
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Mevtec,
Feel really sorry for your car. Its really bad that manufacturers look for the silliest of reasons for voiding the warranty.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mevtec View Post
Maruti has informed us that they cannot repair the car under warranty.

The main reasons told.

1, They have no evidence of the initial MAS visit.

2, Headlamp bulb had been changed to higher watt halogen (Not even Xenon).They says it is a reason to void the warranty.
Headlamp upgrade, at tops, that would void the electrical warranty. What has that to go with engine warranty?

After reading this thread and also looking at gaddiwale's problem, I checked my engine oil yesterday. I generally change oil every 5K Kms. I did check the oil the day after the service (done at 30K) and now at 32K Kms, I dont see any decrease in the oil level. Need to keep a very close eye on the same.
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Old 1st December 2010, 18:34   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mevtec View Post
The main reasons told.

1, They have no evidence of the initial MAS visit.

2, Headlamp bulb had been changed to higher watt halogen (Not even Xenon).They says it is a reason to void the warranty.
What ridiculous thing they are quoting??!!

1) Nothing goes out without a bill, even if its good will, bill will be there and it will be available in the system with zero Rs mentioned.

2) Just refer to consumer forums if they quote this again! At best let them void the warranty for electrical parts.

Next time i will be really vary if i buy a vehicle from MUL if this is the way they are going to treat customer complaints/request!!! Tata and Fiat are anyday better in this aspect!

Last edited by Jaggu : 1st December 2010 at 18:35.
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Old 1st December 2010, 19:27   #54
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Mevtec:

Get hold of the oil cooler and gasket!!- fast.

Make sure its witnessed i.e. note the specific serial No- on the cooler you will need to take off three bolts (Torx no35 bit)attaching it to the oil body the serial No is on the back-inner face. and get the SA to sign saying you have taken that part- with the serial No.)- I'll tell you what to do after this.
Take my phone no by email.
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Old 1st December 2010, 23:30   #55
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I'm shocked to hear that Maruti is not honouring the warranty just because of upgradation of headlight bulbs to higher wattage!! Sad news indeed.

For benefit of every body I'm telling my experience in Vitesse (Prabhadevi) workshop, last Saturday -
1. After inspection and filling up of the required details in the job card by SA, I told him I want to be the workshop floor to see the entire procedure of checking and he happily agreed on that.

2. They first drain the oil and measured the drained oil. By this time I noticed they only have a big drum of Servo oil for diesel cars. I asked them to fill only Mobil oil this time. The guy in oil change bay checked and said they don't have Mobil oil, its there in the first floor warehouse, in the mean time he measured 2.9 lit Servo oil in the measuring vessel. I told him to get the Mobil oil and fill the engine in my presence. I went out side for 10 mins, when I came back the measuring vessel was empty, I asked him whether he filled up the oil. That guy said he filled up Mobil oil. I was absolutely sure that they filled up the Servo oil only.

2. During inspection of the car by Mr. Allan I pointed out this. After some time the engine bay guy came with a can of Mobil synthetic oil (Rs. 4600/-) of 0W40 grade. I asked the floor coordinator - is this the right oil and I don't want costly synthetic oil in my car. The floor coordinator said no this is for petrol engine. After some time he said they are getting right oil from outside which will come with in 15 mins.

3. After about half an hour the oil change bay guy came with a 3.5 lit can of right Mobil oil. In the mean time they drained the earlier filled Servo oil. The person who checked the intercooler changed the oil filter and measured and poured 2.9 lit Mobil oil. I asked him to fill 3.1 lit as instructed in the manual, he was trying to convince me by telling that Maruti has send a 'circulation' mentioning to fill 2.9 lit only with filter change. Again I asked the floor coordinator, he instructed that person to fill 3.1 lit only.

4. When I was taking the car for a test drive I found there was a fresh scratch on the right rear door. Mr. Allan was there, I got pissed off and lost my coolness, which I was controlling for long. Mr. Allan checked the job card where SA marked about all the scratch marks, nothing was mentioned in that. Later, Mr. Allan has given in writing that the scratch has been made at workshop and will be fixed whenever I visit the workshop next time.

5. Lastly when I got the bill, saw Vitesse has charged me for 3.5 lit oil, whereas only 3.1 lit has been filled. I asked them to charge me for 3.1 lit or return me the remaining 400 ml. SA said remaining oil is there in the boot. When I checked the boot/entire car, nothing was there. Seeing my mood the SA quickly went to the floor and bought 400 ml of oil in a cola pet bottle. Now I don't know it's the remaining Mobil oil or he just gave me the Servo oil!!

May be I have posted this in wrong section (Mods you please shift this to appropriate section if required) but I want every body should know how incompetent, careless Vitesse guys are now-a-days. Earlier I had a very high regards for Vitesse Prabhadevi service station, this time they actually ruined that trust and I've said that to Mr. Allan D'souza. Another thing I've noticed there is a price difference in the Mobil oil in two MASSs, Chetan Motors in Navi Mumbai is around ~Rs. 30-40/lit (I don't have the bills with me right now) cheaper than Vitesse. I'm quite sure Vitesse doesn't keep Mobil oil, filling up all the DDiS engines with Servo oil and taking the premium of Mobil from the customers.

The moral of the story: Forget JD Power customer satisfaction survey, now-a-days Maruti's quality is deterioreting. For sure my next vehicle would not be a Maruti again.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 02:06   #56
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@Mevtec, why did you go to bimal in the first place ?

They made me go around 5times to diagnose a small problem that too in maruti 800
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ease-help.html (Very Strange Overheating Issue, Please Help)

They only know to wash car thoroughly, when i asked for compression test, one service guy told me they dont do compression test for cars odo less than 1lac and not unless major problem in the engine, when in insisted he straightaway told me its impossible to get permission to perform this test on my car, i just nodded my head and returned back.

The only reason i had to go there as no other MASS close to my place. Pavan, Jaggu and others has strongly recommended Suraksha and i will be visiting them if any issues in the future.

If possible why dont you tow your vehicle to suraskha and get it rechecked?
if mr. kulvinder singh is right, then probably you will be only spending 5k+ for the oil cooler, maybe your engine is fine and bimal is trying to rip you.

Bottom line is bimal has better infrastructure compared to other MASS, but they lack engineers with intelligence.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 07:12   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnruben View Post
@Mevtec, why did you go to bimal in the first place ?
If possible why dont you tow your vehicle to suraskha and get it rechecked?
if mr. kulvinder singh is right, then probably you will be only spending 5k+ for the oil cooler, maybe your engine is fine and bimal is trying to rip you.

Bottom line is bimal has better infrastructure compared to other MASS, but they lack engineers with intelligence.
The problem is that suraksha or any other MASS for that matter does not handle warranty repairs. If you want something to be checked under warranty you are forced to visit a dealer workshop.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 11:44   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaddiwale View Post
May be I have posted this in wrong section (Mods you please shift this to appropriate section if required) but I want every body should know how incompetent, careless Vitesse guys are now-a-days. Earlier I had a very high regards for Vitesse Prabhadevi service station, this time they actually ruined that trust and I've said that to Mr. Allan D'souza. Another thing I've noticed there is a price difference in the Mobil oil in two MASSs, Chetan Motors in Navi Mumbai is around ~Rs. 30-40/lit (I don't have the bills with me right now) cheaper than Vitesse. I'm quite sure Vitesse doesn't keep Mobil oil, filling up all the DDiS engines with Servo oil and taking the premium of Mobil from the customers.

The moral of the story: Forget JD Power customer satisfaction survey, now-a-days Maruti's quality is deterioreting. For sure my next vehicle would not be a Maruti again.
That's a real shocker bcos even I too take my car to Vitesse - Prabhadevi only. All along, I have strictly instructed them to put Mobil oil and whenever I used to pick up my car, they used to confirm the same. A couple of times, they even told me that they only stock Mobil and don't even stock Servo. Also all along I have noticed that prices at Vitesse were higher compared to other MASS but was thinking that atleast I will have peace of mind that they do a good job.

For a moment, even if I discount the brand of oil that they use, putting 2.9L of oil when you are doing a oil filter change is cardinal sin

Gaddiwale: Do you know the SA's name? Generally during my visits to Vitesse, I do make it a point to go and talk to Colin (I hope I have spelled the name right) who is the work's manager and a gem of a person.

Last edited by f1fan : 2nd December 2010 at 11:55.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 22:11   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f1fan View Post
Gaddiwale: Do you know the SA's name? Generally during my visits to Vitesse, I do make it a point to go and talk to Colin (I hope I have spelled the name right) who is the work's manager and a gem of a person.
You are right. Mr. Colin Pereira is the workshop manager, even Mr. Allan D'Souza is a gentleman. Too much workload, space constrain, poor selection of workshop people, over confidence actually affecting the workflow. Do you believe Vitesse diesel car's emission checking computer is not working currently! Thus, they could not checked the emission level in my car which is consuming more engine oil!

I would suggest, be more vigilant whenever you give the car for servicing. By the way my SA was Prakash Shettiger, who is looking after my cars for last two years (Ritz and the earlier Zen). I'm really disappointed this time.
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Old 2nd December 2010, 22:52   #60
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Dude... since they have forgotten you first visit to the S.C., just got an idea.

Did you take any photographs that day? If yes, is there your S.A, any recognizable portion/person of the garage visible in the photographs?

If yes, the date of the photograph and the photo itself can be used as proof...

Last edited by AbhiJ : 2nd December 2010 at 22:58.
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