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Old 16th July 2013, 16:41   #211
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Default re: Mahindra Scorpio : Tyre & wheel upgrade thread

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Technically the best tyres in the world are Michelin, and off the record the Japanese tyre engineers who were working with me on the Toyo OP/DH project admitted this.
At least 16% of Team-BHP members consider Michelin tyres to be of poor quality, with issues such as bulges, premature wear, frequent punctures etc. This is statistically quite a substantial percentage of disgruntled users, considering that the company is considered by you and the Japanese tyre engineers to be the best in the world. More details on this thread (Michelin Tyre Woes: Fact or Fiction? (Michelin users please vote)).

OTOH, Bridgestones were rated to be absolute rubbish when they first launched in India and in their early days, and no heavy user would touch them with the proverbial bargepole. Read about member compaints here (Are Bridgestone HT Tires sub standard?). It is all kudos to Bridgestone that they decided to pull up their socks and deliver much better quality subsequently, and the result is a set of HT tyres that can roll on for 100k km without falling apart.

I could name at least a dozen members on this forum who have had premature failure of their Yokohama Geolandar AT tyres, and ALL of them were due to - guess what! - sidewall failure. AT tyres are supposed to take on rough road usage without falling apart, and here we have these tyres having their sidewalls ripped out at the sight of a little brick, forget a heavy impact with sharp rocks.

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Old 16th July 2013, 17:21   #212
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Default re: Mahindra Scorpio : Tyre & wheel upgrade thread

Why are Michelin tires "technically" the best in the world? Would like to know what exactly the "technical" details are.

It would be great if someone who has worked on tire design and development shed some light, whether the usage pattern being discussed is right or not. With reasons and not just statements please. Anyone here?

Spike

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Old 16th July 2013, 17:21   #213
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Default re: Mahindra Scorpio : Tyre & wheel upgrade thread

I mentioned earlier that I had exactly the same problem with Yokohama Geolanders in my Bolero.

Michelin LTX has excellent highway drive, but a weak sidewall. Michelin Pilot comes in as OE on most upper level Mercedes cars.

If Michelin LTX is deflated and run off road in the desert then there is sidewall bursting and excessive slippage, It is not very good off road but 99 % of SUVs sold hardly ever go off road.

Technically, yes, the Japs admit it and a lot of other people like say the Toyo and Maxxis distributor in UAE mentions that Michelin and its acquired business BF Goodrich are technically the best.

Bridestone have firmly established themselves in India, but the H/T too has a weak sidewall problem off road. Its an OE on Nissan Patrols, when Bridgestone Desert Duelrs were discontinued. Ask the guy who has dug holes around them refitted them on the rim and inflated them back.

But in India aas OE and as replacement on Scorpio and Safari they are doing well now having overcome the initial hiccups.
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Old 16th July 2013, 23:04   #214
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Default re: Mahindra Scorpio : Tyre & wheel upgrade thread

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Technically, yes, the Japs admit it and a lot of other people like say the Toyo and Maxxis distributor in UAE mentions that Michelin and its acquired business BF Goodrich are technically the best.
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Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
Why are Michelin tires "technically" the best in the world? Would like to know what exactly the "technical" details are.

It would be great if someone who has worked on tire design and development shed some light, whether the usage pattern being discussed is right or not. With reasons and not just statements please. Anyone here?
Technical, technically - er... I'm getting a little snowed under over here. Are we talking with relation to the precise engineering that goes into making a tyre, or do we actually need to explore the variety of *technical* meanings that the expression "technically speaking" has?
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Bridestone have firmly established themselves in India, but the H/T too has a weak sidewall problem off road.
But in India aas OE and as replacement on Scorpio and Safari they are doing well now having overcome the initial hiccups.
If by off road you mean dune bashing, no, I have no experience of such activity and cannot comment about the durability of BS Duelers under such use, especially when bolted on to 200+ bhp and 500+ N-m. OTOH, for mild off-road use such as in the Himalayas, esp. on terrain like Ladakh or Uttarakhand, sidewall failures are known to be much more common on other brands (especially JK Elanzo, Yokohama Geolandars, Michelin LTX & Latitude Cross etc.) than BS Duelers - in fact, the SUV taxi segment in the mountains actually pays the extra premium of a BS over a JK because of its higher life and resistance to cuts and punctiures.

I believe the compound that BS sells in India is not the same as what they sell in Europe or the Middle-east.

Coming to your thoughts about how unsafe my 95k km old tyres are because they've been through a billion potholes and how the casing might be falling apart from the inside, I wonder if you would care to travel to the mountains and hinterlands of our great country, where thrice-retreaded tyres survive rocky, dusty, gravelly and slushy roads for even 200,000 km, without falling apart, confidently transporting a full load of passengers to their destinations (and this is where the Ceats and MRFs of India surpass the Michelins and Yokohamas of the world - in having a bomb-proof carcass). In my years of travelling in the Himalayas, I remember seeing enough retreaded (and bald) tyres, but never have I heard of a vehicle falling off a mountain due to a burst tyre. Broken steering linkage, yes; failed brakes, yes; but a burst tyre, no.

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Old 16th July 2013, 23:37   #215
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Default re: Mahindra Scorpio : Tyre & wheel upgrade thread

SST sir,i am really surprised that Your Bridgestone's went for as long as 95K,I am 4K short of 50K and Michelin's have almost given up.
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Old 17th July 2013, 10:09   #216
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Default re: Mahindra Scorpio : Tyre & wheel upgrade thread

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
At least 16% of Team-BHP members consider Michelin tyres to be of poor quality, with issues such as bulges, premature wear, frequent punctures etc. This is statistically quite a substantial percentage of disgruntled users,
SS-T , I am pretty happy with Michelin Latitude Cross. It has ran about 26k and 2.2 years. Latest drive been to worst possible roads at Uttrakhand during our Yamunotri/Gangotri trip. IMO they are very grippy tyres and almost 50% lesser noise than Bridgestone. Must say the wet & dry handling is very satisfactory. As per the current trend it should last about 50k

Previous to these were Bridgestone. Must say they are built to last, even mine would have lasted another 20-25k easily. Got a good buyback deal hence i switched to Michelin. Feedback about them is noisy on highways and braking distance is almost 20% to 30% more. Tire locks up more often than later.
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Old 17th July 2013, 11:01   #217
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Default re: Mahindra Scorpio : Tyre & wheel upgrade thread

SS DoC everyone has his own opinion and is entitled to his viewpoint and what he wishes to do.

In my case with about 20 years of off roading experience and close association with three tyre manufactureres TOYO, DUNLOP and Bridgestone this is how I have been schooled and brought up.

They have periodically sais tyres need to me changed at 40,000 K and are highly unsafe after 50,000 K or 5 years.

During the annual vehicle passing in the UAE or anywhere in the middle east, if the date on the tyre is more than 5 years old they will fail the vehicle.

In Suvs or all the Saloon cars I have owned, company provided cars, be it Mercedes E Class, or Dodge Intrepid or Mercury Sable, whenever it went for service tyres were replaced at 40,000 K without fail.

I was trained in off road safety and vehicle recovery to train as a qualified Desert Marshal by the US Army and US Air Force personnel and this is what they taught me. ( These events were courtesy Gulf News and UAE Armed Forces )

I went for training with BMW Extreme team, and with BF Goodrich teams and this is again reinforced there.

What the taxiwalas do in the Indian hills is not at all a mark of safety standards, there is a lot of compromise here.

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Old 17th July 2013, 12:51   #218
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Default re: Mahindra Scorpio : Tyre & wheel upgrade thread

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I was trained in off road safety and vehicle recovery to train as a qualified Desert Marshal by the US Army and US Air Force personnel and this is what they taught me. ( These events were courtesy Gulf News and UAE Armed Forces )
I went for training with BMW Extreme team, and with BF Goodrich teams and this is again reinforced there.
What the taxiwalas do in the Indian hills is not at all a mark of safety standards, there is a lot of compromise here.
Sir, I am grateful and honoured that a person of your immense qualifications and exposure in the world of motor-racing, rallying and off-roading, with hands-on experience of driving a variety of vehicles on and off road that I can only dream of, should deign to advise me regarding the safety aspects of over-using tyres like I have, thus exposing my family, myself and many, many other road users to the perils of a potentially out-of-control vehicle that can kill or maim. Please forgive me for blatantly transgressing the limits of safety, because I knew not what I did.

I am also impressed by your further qualifications as described by you in another thread, and which I take the liberty of quoting here...
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I happen to be the safety and first aid marshal for NIOC. Maybe I dont go much on OTRs these days because most weekends I am comitted to skeet shooting, and my own wildlife adventure camera trips but I get reports of what has transpired all the time.

I am shahid Ahmad. Age 45

Off road adventure experience on 4 continents.
3 times winner of 1000 dunes desert rally.
team toyota driver
285,000 km driven off road and 1900 off road trips till date. Will drive more.
Designer of Toyo - Open Country OP/DH tyre for landcruisers
Chief Marshal - Dubai Desert Club
Chief Marshal - Gulf News fun drive for 12 years
Route Director & Chief Marshal - Great Escape Desert Adventure, Dubai sponsored by Toyota, Dunlop Tyres and Total Lubricants.

If I talk I know what I am saying.
Unfortunately, I can boast of no such qualifications. I don't remember how many km I have driven on road or off it, I have received no safety training from any agency or manufacturer or team, and I have survived as many summers as you (and perhaps one or two more) probably only because the Lord Almighty did not wish me to stop existing on Earth. I understand very little physics, hardly any mathematics (I failed in Maths in my Board exams), and the organic chemistry behind the construction of tyres is beyond me.

I have never been inside a Toyota Land Cruiser, forget about even the thought of owning or (God forbid) racing one - I don't have the financial resources to buy and maintain a Fortuner, never mind an LC (though I dream of driving a tractor and a JCB off road some day - and so at one time I went and wrote this thread (A Tractor for OTR Excursions - would it be fun?)), and the few substandard vehicles (a few Ambassadors, once upon a time a Morris 8, a couple of M-800s, a Zen, an Indica, and an Accent) that I (and my family) have owned and driven were all bought after careful consideration about the economics of how little we can spend and still remain mobile. I am not wealthy enough to be able to afford racing or rallying cars on or off road and incur repair bills that run into tens of thousands of rupees for a few hours of fun & relaxation (sleeping is cheaper, and more relaxing); call it stinginess if you will, but I hate to go to a mechanic at odd hours of the day and pay them a lot of money, so I try to find ways of not calling them when stuck on the road (Get-me-home tips in case of breakdowns). That same **stingy** DNA in my cells also makes me try to get the maximum number of km out of my tyres, engine, clutch, brakes, in fact, the whole car (ARTICLE: Mechanical Empathy | Preserving the Car While Driving).

And here you are, Sir, giving me an inferiority complex by brandishing your qualifications, and asking me to spend 30,000 INR and more (which I can ill-afford) to replace all the tyres of my till-now-well-behaved vehicle. I bleed in my soul to imagine that such large displays of wealth might turn my beloved H-4 into a spoilt brat, and I pray that kind gentlemen like you would donate a few slightly-used Bridgestones from your own Scorpios to keep my darling's feet warm, while deciding that those Jimmy Choo and Michelin shoes are the most worthy footwear for your own vehicles.

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Old 17th July 2013, 14:40   #219
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Default re: Mahindra Scorpio : Tyre & wheel upgrade thread

Doc I mentioned earlier its your own free will to decide how much you wish to drive on your tyres, drive for 200,000 km on them it is none of my business, but any kind of safety advice is for all forum users, not one individual.

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Old 17th July 2013, 15:30   #220
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That one MUST replace all 4 radials as a set is flawed advice, and forum members need also to be aware of the same.

That Ceat makes bad tyres is also biased advice, and forum members should not be misinformed thus.

That a carefully used set of BS Dueler tyres can last for 95k km on a Scorpio without developing cracks and bulges and with safe tread depth remaining, is a matter of interest to many readers, and they should be allowed to draw their own conclusions from such information.
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Old 17th July 2013, 16:12   #221
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Default re: Mahindra Scorpio : Tyre & wheel upgrade thread

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That a carefully used set of BS Dueler tyres can last for 95k km on a Scorpio without developing cracks and bulges and with safe tread depth remaining, is a matter of interest to many readers, and they should be allowed to draw their own conclusions from such information.
If I would have been a manufacturer (Scorpio / Bridgestone), I would buy your car (and offer you a new one as a replacement) with the wheels and pass it on to my R&D team to analyze why this particular set lasted these many kilometers.

95K + kilometers is no joke.

Spike
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Old 17th July 2013, 16:31   #222
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Default re: Mahindra Scorpio : Tyre & wheel upgrade thread

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SS-T , I am pretty happy with Michelin Latitude Cross. It has ran about 26k and 2.2 years. Latest drive been to worst possible roads at Uttrakhand during our Yamunotri/Gangotri trip. IMO they are very grippy tyres and almost 50% lesser noise than Bridgestone. Must say the wet & dry handling is very satisfactory. As per the current trend it should last about 50k

Previous to these were Bridgestone. Must say they are built to last, even mine would have lasted another 20-25k easily. Got a good buyback deal hence i switched to Michelin. Feedback about them is noisy on highways and braking distance is almost 20% to 30% more. Tire locks up more often than later.
I agree with grip and noise levels,but i have had a bad experience with them on Bad roads,i have had multiple flats due to sharp stones on Latitude Cross,
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Old 17th July 2013, 19:56   #223
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Default re: Mahindra Scorpio : Tyre & wheel upgrade thread

Bridgestone Duellers do indeed last long - Have had them on for 60K+ kms and then replaced them out of boredom. Similar experience both in Safari and Aria.

Michelins LTX AT that I had were less noisy and more comfy while costing more but they had lesser life and did not feel as strong (side walls) as the Bridgestones.

Yoko Geolanders seem to have great ability while they work but also seem to be weak. (Basis experience of others and my general experience with other Yoko tyres (two sets of different kinds both developed issues and required 1 of the 4 to be replaced in early days itself - warranty was honoured once and not the other time.)

Goodyear Wranglers 17" were poor tyres on the Aria while the Bridgestone Duellers did fared much better.

Experience Based on Safari TCIC - 15" alloys.

Last edited by ACM : 17th July 2013 at 20:02.
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Old 18th July 2013, 12:23   #224
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Default re: Mahindra Scorpio : Tyre & wheel upgrade thread

What happens in many cases is that people ignore what is normally not visible. A person may push his vehicle and do a tyre surface check, he might give his visible sidewall a very careful inspection, but people totally ignore the inner sidewall, nobody actually bends down under a car to inspect with a torch the bulges and cuts that may be there.

This ignorance often proves to be costly.

A good idea is that when the vehicle is taken for wheel alignment and raised, a complete underside inspection must be done with a torch by walking down the steps of the well, inclusive of inner sidewall of the tyres.

For that matter can anyone fron Bridgestone India actually make a comment that their tyres are safe to drive for 100,000 KM ? The agencies that Mr. Dhabhar Behram keeps talkingof CVRM or whatever must have a tyre life specification for India as well.

Changing a set of radials at one go is a best practice but not a gospel from the oracle himself.

Thus for safe driving it is the usual practice and everyone does feel the pinch of the higher replacement cost involved in one go.

But everyone is free to do as he pleases.

Even law enforcement cannot prevail totally.

What does the law say ? Cross ply and radial cannot be on the same axis, minimum 2 mm of tread depth should remain, tyre should not be more than 5 years old.

Now due to a different, some new compund if the tread wear line does not appear on a particular tyre even after driving 200,000 KM in 4 years, and the vehicle passes the braking test on the roller pinch machine, there is nothing that the authorities can do. It is upto the driver to think about his safety.

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Old 18th July 2013, 18:31   #225
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Default re: Mahindra Scorpio : Tyre & wheel upgrade thread

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
impressed by your further qualifications as described by you in another thread, and which I take the liberty of quoting here...


I have never been inside a Toyota Land Cruiser, forget about even the thought of owning or (God forbid) racing one... I am not wealthy enough to be able to afford racing or rallying cars on or off road and incur repair bills that run into tens of thousands of rupees for a few hours of fun & relaxation (sleeping is cheaper, and more relaxing); call it stinginess if you will, but I hate to go to a mechanic at odd hours of the day and pay them a lot of money, so I try to find ways of not calling...get the maximum number of km out of my tyres, engine, clutch, brakes, in fact, the whole car[/url].

And here you are, Sir, giving me an inferiority complex by brandishing your qualifications, and asking me to spend 30,000 INR and more (which I can ill-afford) to replace all the tyres of my till-now-well-behaved vehicle
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertfox View Post
SS DoC everyone has his own opinion and is entitled to his viewpoint and what he wishes to do.

In my case with about 20 years of off roading experience and close association with three tyre manufactureres TOYO, DUNLOP and Bridgestone this is how I have been schooled and brought up.

They have periodically sais tyres need to me changed at 40,000 K and are highly unsafe after 50,000 K or 5 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
That one MUST replace all 4 radials as a set is flawed advice, and forum members need also to be aware of the same.

That Ceat makes bad tyres is also biased advice, and forum members ....is a matter of interest to many readers, and they should be allowed to draw their own conclusions from such information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Bridgestone Duellers do indeed last long
Michelins LTX AT that I had....Yoko Geolanders seem to have great ability while...Goodyear Wranglers 17" were poor tyres on the Aria while the Bridgestone Duellers did fared much better.
Quote:
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What happens in many cases is that people ignore what is normally not visible....This ignorance often proves to be costly...But everyone is free to do as he pleases.

Even law enforcement cannot prevail totally.

What does the law say ? Cross ply and radial cannot be on the same axis, minimum 2 mm of tread depth should remain, tyre should not be more than 5 years old.
I would like to add my thoughts and experiences here. Please do note, I am open to a healthy discussion here. Let me know if I am wrong or ignorant.

A) Thoughts
I think Mr. Desert fox sir's advice are related to ideal conditions. Yes, tyres are best replaced in 5 years, or <40,000 kms, or when tread depth is at 2mm, or when there are bulges etc. This is the ideal way to go about.

Mr. SS traveller sir's thinking and advice are based more on real world usage and conditions.

Tyre companies at the end of the day are doing business. They have to sell more tyres, for not only making money, but also doing further R&D. Hence, its in their best interests to educate people, or push governments around the world to make laws mandatory for tyre replacements during such and such situations, usually defined by the companies themselves (either directly or behind consortium's).
Please do note that I have no proof for the same. I hail from a family of small enterprising businessmen. I have seen both outstanding businessmen (the likes who are highly respected in their community) and bad ones (the likes who resort to malpractices). But, I have a good general idea of how corporates work. There are good ones and there are bad ones.

B) Experiences
I am in-charge of maintaining 2 scorpio's used quite extensively. They came factory equipped with goodyear tyres which were marketed with claimed life of 100,000 kms (was in their brochure).
I am given an annual budget for the same, which includes regular services, accident repair, tyre replacement etc. sort of for a comprehensive maintenance.
Each car completes 40,000kms in a year or max 1 year and 2 months. If i were to follow the ideal ways of tyre replacement, I would not able to service my car in any other aspect. Hence, I look for rough and tough tyres.

Now coming to my experiences with different tyre makes:
1. Goodyears (I forget the model): claimed life of 100,000kms. Were prone to punctures a lot in both the vehicles. The tyre was bald by 80,000 kms. Drivers were very angry with the time spent on road repairing punctures. I changed them in both cars at the end of 100,000 kms. Had developed innumerable bulges.
2. Bridgestone duellers: These were my only other option at that time. MRF had yet to release the wanderer series, and Apollo had not yet launched tyres in this specification. These tyres were a god send. Puncture rate dropped drastically. The tread depth was outstanding. Of the two sets, one lasted 1.5lac kms and the other is still going strong at 1.8lac kms. The tread depth is at 5mm as of now. I had to replace one set because one of the drivers rode for 1 km on 2 flat tyres! No bulges as well.
3. MRF wanderers: This set just went on the car 6 months back. Tread wear rate is faster than duellers, but will last 80-90k kms as per me. Good tyres, no bulges at all. Little softer than duellers.

All WA/WB done at 10k kms at same shop.
I can now see why the taxi drivers praise this tyre. Sure, the company will always maintain their stand that the tyres should be replaced earlier, YET while designing the tyre they will make sure that it should hold.
Let me tell you a real life story. My cousin works in Mahindra in the design department. He told me that when they were designing their competitor to tata ace, the management had instructed them to design the vehicle to sit only 3 people, for them to show to RTO, but add some structural modifications so that the customers could add extra seats. They knew that customers would add and use the extra space.

I'll be trying out the ceat czar's next when I'll be replacing the duellers in few months. Will keep you all updated.
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