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Old 6th February 2009, 08:04   #16
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jbl and pioneer dealers(and i don't mean the hole in the wall shops) can remain in business selling the same thing for B&W and grey rates, and in fact grey outsells B&W , esp for pioneer, since a 1 year warranty is not very helpful( pioneer seems to have therefore increased there warranty to 2 years).

Just curious , since they can still profitably sell stuff for less by not giving a warranty which most folks won't use anyway, why the same isnt done for tyres. I mean, if you sell tyres for less, stating explicitly that you wont honor warranties, that reduces your headache too right ?

I understand that the manufacturers themselves are not very proactive with warranty claims, so why should the dealers have to bother taking the flak from the customers for a lame warranty thats not their fault in the first place?

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Old 6th February 2009, 15:51   #17
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Actually, hitting a stone on the road and damaging your tyre doesnt qualify for replacement under warranty. Very few companies will entertain you.

It is like taking your car, hitting a pole and then coming back and asking your service centre to change the bumpers under warranty. Taking your iPhone, dunking it in water and then asking for a replacement under warranty.

No one will entertain you. Tyres are subjected to a lot of abuse, especially on our roads. You need to be careful. SOmetimes, it is just bad luck. You have to take it like that.

Most of the damage isnt visible on the sidewall. The company rep sees the inside of the tyre before making a decision. Michelin tyres are very soft compared to most of the other brands. Their tyres will develop a bulge even without a physical mark. They are the ones who are very strict when it comes to warranty claims.

They have almost no exceptions.
I have never asked for a tyre change from any of these dealers. They only offered to change it for free when i went to check the damage. But you are right, michelin have no exceptions. they asked me to change the tyre immediately, but not for free. Who buys the same tyre again! Well, i felt slightly better when i saw another guy with the same complaint arguing with them.

I wonder why all the tyres develop bulges on sidewalls (mostly michelin) very early in thier life. In my experience, it always happens before the first 3000 kms. One positive about it is that you can change the one damaged tyre alone and drive around with 4 almost identically worn tyres. Just imagine if it happens around 25000 kms. You will be in a dilemma whether to change just one tyre or all 4 tyres!
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Old 7th February 2009, 13:25   #18
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Nikhil, based on your exposure and experience, which company do you percieve to be more aggressive( denial mode) when it comes to honouring the warranty and which company more Customer understanding ??.

I hope, I have not asked a very difficult question.
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Old 7th February 2009, 16:29   #19
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Nikhil, based on your exposure and experience, which company do you percieve to be more aggressive( denial mode) when it comes to honouring the warranty and which company more Customer understanding ??.

I hope, I have not asked a very difficult question.
Denial mode: Definitely Michelin. On the other hand, 99% of people who come with damaged tyres(either a sidewall cut or a bulge) are unaware.

They never accept their mistake. They think we all are fools. They come and tell us "Sir, we have never hit a pothole/sidewalk/median. But there is a bulge, sidewall cut, etc." Which is utter nonsense.

For bulges, it is very easy to find out. There is usually a mark on the inside of the tyre. These people dont see it. They think they will get a free tyre. Then we open the tyre and show it to them and then they start arguing with us saying it is a manufacturing defect, we didnt hit the tyre, etc.

It is a pain dealing with unreasonable customers. I wonder if they argue in the same way if they get their ipod/mobile phone wet and it stops working.

The most understanding company is Falken. Although that is only because it is new and doesnt want the few customers it has to ditch it. They give replacements a little too easily. I once saw a customer get a replacement for a tyre which had a sidewall cut which was then patched and the patch was again hit and the tyre was leaking air again. This guy claimed for a tyre under warranty and actually got it!!

I dont think this is the correct approach as you are setting a bad example. You cannot do this kind of charity forever. Once the company tightens it's policies, the customers are going to feel very bad.

Michelin on the other hand are strict because they have to be. It is just that their tyres are more sensitive to our roads than most of the other brands. That is why they get bulges faster and more frequently. This holds true even for Falken ZE 912 especially. Only difference is, the company is ready to give a replacement in the case of Falken. I have also seen a couple of cases where Michelin has replaced a tyre free of cost because it was clearly a manufacturing defect.

Michelin have a very strict manufacturing process and very very rarely is a defective tyre found. This is true of all the big companies. MRF,(yes. MRF!), Bridgestone, Yokohama, etc...

It is just that the other tyres are stronger and can take the kind of abuse Indians give it better.

Cant say anything firmly abt Yokohama or Continental though. They are still quite new to the market. Havent had too many complaints to begin with.

PS: Dadu, it is a difficult question, but people have the right to know!

Last edited by khan_sultan : 9th February 2009 at 10:21. Reason: Edited strong language from the message
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Old 7th February 2009, 16:41   #20
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Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
It is just that the other tyres are stronger and can take the kind of abuse Indians give it better.

Cant say anything firmly abt Yokohama or Continental though. They are still quite new to the market. Havent had too many complaints to begin with.

PS: Dadu, it is a difficult question, but people have the right to know!
Thanks this bring out another questions, which tyres are stronger and better suited for abuse and to our roads, in this perhaps you can list them in order from highly strong to very sensitive.
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Old 7th February 2009, 17:04   #21
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i think the desi stuff would be better for this, especially the "long lasting" tyres which use harder compounds. Brands/models , I've no idea
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Old 7th February 2009, 17:06   #22
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This is just my opinion.
It is based on what I have seen over the past 6 months. We deal with all brands, so I think I have a fair idea. We dont deal with the companies not officially present in India, so I cant give you an idea of the others like Nankang, Hankook, Kumho, Maxxis, etc.

MRF/JK(almost all their models) > Apollo(the acceleres i.e. The Amazers and Hawkz are quite decent)/Bridgestone > Goodyear > Michelin/Falken

Goodyear is very prone to punctures though. Yesterday, I had a customer who was saying that in 3 years of using Good year tyres, he didnt have a single puncture. When we checked, we realised that he had 4 punctures in 3 tyres!!

I havent ranked Yokohama or Continental as they are still pretty new. We havent recieved a single complaint as of now for these two brands.

Last edited by Nikhilb2008 : 7th February 2009 at 17:07.
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Old 7th February 2009, 17:10   #23
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Hi Nikhil,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
99% of people who come with damaged tyres(either a sidewall cut or a bulge) are idiots. For bulges, it is very easy to find out. There is usually a mark on the inside of the tyre.
As per the above, I have to say that I am an idiot. Becasue I did take an Apollo tyre to its service centre for a 'bulge'. This bulge surfaced at the end of a journey to Bangalore from Alleppey. I never hit anything in that journey.

There was no mark on the outside of the tyre. Inside there was a i inch cut uniform like it was done by a knife. I really don't know enough to differentiate between a bulge caused by abuse or defect.

Could you put up some images of genuine manufacturing defects?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
It is a pain dealing with customers. I wonder if they argue in the same way if they get their ipod/mobile phone wet and it stops working.
Well, you would be a customer for so many other people! I do agree with you. I have a textile shop. I do see hundreds of them everyday and some can be unreasonable.
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Old 7th February 2009, 17:23   #24
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Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
Goodyear is very prone to punctures though. Yesterday, I had a customer who was saying that in 3 years of using Good year tyres, he didnt have a single puncture. When we checked, we realised that he had 4 punctures in 3 tyres!!

I havent ranked Yokohama or Continental as they are still pretty new. We havent recieved a single complaint as of now for these two brands.
Good Year prone to punctures? We covered about 45 k on our OEM Good Years (tubed) over approx. 6 years. As far as I can remember, have had only 3 or 4 punctures max. And the roads in and around Poona have been awful esp. in the monsoons. So have hit a few potholes (not v major though). Still no problems.

Recently replaced them with Yokos. Of course GY can't be compared to Yokos in handling... which of course cost more... but they have been almost trouble free otherwise.
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Old 7th February 2009, 17:27   #25
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Hi Nikhil,



As per the above, I have to say that I am an idiot. Becasue I did take an Apollo tyre to its service centre for a 'bulge'. This bulge surfaced at the end of a journey to Bangalore from Alleppey. I never hit anything in that journey.

There was no mark on the outside of the tyre. Inside there was a i inch cut uniform like it was done by a knife. I really don't know enough to differentiate between a bulge caused by abuse or defect.

Could you put up some images of genuine manufacturing defects?



Well, you would be a customer for so many other people! I do agree with you. I have a textile shop. I do see hundreds of them everyday and some can be unreasonable.
Dude!! I only wish all my customers were T-BHPians! It would make them more knowledgeable and easier to deal with. They wouldnt argue for the sake of arguing.

I said 99% of complaints. Not 100%. There is always a possibility of a manufacturing defect. I have just observed that most of the bulges are due to bad road conditions.


Anyway, sorry to say, but your case sounds exactly like damage due to bad road conditions.

If there is a hit to the tyre, it may not show up immediately. It could take a few days to show up. So, while you may not have hit anything on your recent trip, maybe the constant high speeds and subsequent increase in pressure due to temperature brought about a bulge in the tyre.

Since there is a clear cut inside the tyre, the company will mostly reject your warranty claim. Terrible luck with that!

PS: When I said idiot, I dont mean literally. Dont hold that against me now! It is just my observation that most people are very unreasonable when they have a damaged tyre. I feel bad for them that they have to spend extra just because our government didnt do it's job properly of making decent motorable roads. But that does not give the customer right to scream at us, throw tantrums and hold our business to ransom.

I have this feeling, because I have heard very bad stories. Once a man actually held our shop to ransom because we refused to replace his tyre. His tyre had been rejectedb y the company(dont remember which) and he was furious. He called some of his rowdy friends and they took up positions inside our shop. They refused to leave. Finally, that night we ended up closing our shop at 1 in the morning after we called the cops.

At this time, I wasnt working. I was still a student. Both my parents however are in the tyre business. My mom manages a shop and she has been in the industry since 1983. My dad has been in this busines

Last edited by Nikhilb2008 : 7th February 2009 at 17:40.
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Old 7th February 2009, 17:36   #26
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Sorry for double post. Please delete.
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Old 7th February 2009, 23:55   #27
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Terming customers 'idiots' is fine. But i wonder if it is when they claim a warranty? or when buying a particular tyre?

I would also like to know what is a genuine manufacturing defect so that next time some shopkeeper wont classify me an idiot! It will also help reducing the number of other 'idiots' turning up in tyre shops.

One question still there in my mind. Where are we supposed to drive with these tyres? a race track?
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Old 8th February 2009, 16:00   #28
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
I said 99% of complaints. Not 100%. There is always a possibility of a manufacturing defect. I have just observed that most of the bulges are due to bad road conditions.
What would be the difference in a bulge caused by manufacturing defect or by bad roads?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
Anyway, sorry to say, but your case sounds exactly like damage due to bad road conditions.
Since the tyre has already been running and with the bad roads in our country, it is easy to blame it on the roads.

We never check the insides of our car tyres when we buy a new car. So a manufacturing defect can hide itself without us noticing it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
Since there is a clear cut inside the tyre, the company will mostly reject your warranty claim. Terrible luck with that!
They did. So I am very definitely keeping away from the Acelere range henceforth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
PS: When I said idiot, I dont mean literally. Dont hold that against me now! It is just my observation that most people are very unreasonable when they have a damaged tyre. I feel bad for them that they have to spend extra just because our government didnt do it's job properly of making decent motorable roads.
When you talk face to face, the other person can see your face and your body language and hence hazard a guess as to your intentions and meanings. When you put down words in a forum, you have to be careful because nobody would understand if you did not mean it literally.

Please educate us to differentiate manufacturing defects / other defects so that we are wiser and the knowledge eventually spreads.

When I sell a Van Heusen shirt, the customer believes in me as much as the company that he would get a good product. But if something happens to it or he finds some defects, he is bound to be angry at both me and the company. Since he has no access to the company, he is naturally going to vent his feelings on me. It would be more if I tell him the company has to decide whether it is a genuine defect or not.

A tyre is a critical product for the vehicle. I won't be able to ravel peacefully for weeks if the tyre has to be inspected by company officials to decide its fate. There has to be an easier way.

It was only fortunate that I had another vehicle with which to transport the tyre 75kms to the company's godown and a person who need not show any identificaton inspects the tyre and rejects the claim.

Somehow it does seem unfair.
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Old 8th February 2009, 16:36   #29
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Originally Posted by VEA View Post
Terming customers 'idiots' is fine. But i wonder if it is when they claim a warranty? or when buying a particular tyre?

I would also like to know what is a genuine manufacturing defect so that next time some shopkeeper wont classify me an idiot! It will also help reducing the number of other 'idiots' turning up in tyre shops.

One question still there in my mind. Where are we supposed to drive with these tyres? a race track?
Customers who claim warranty is fine. People who argue unreasonably are not fine.

There are rules for every company. Problem starts when we open the tyre and show the internal damage to the customer. They refuse to accept that it could have been caused by their carelessness or bad luck.

From the outside, you generally cant come to know if the bulge is because of a tyre manufacturing defect or because of damage.

A racetrack can also create problems for some types of tyres! Tyres are meant to be driven on roads. Unfortunately most of the tyres brought it by the MNCs are better suited to the smooth roads of foreign countries rather than our lunar landscape.




Quote:
Originally Posted by trrk View Post
Hi,



What would be the difference in a bulge caused by manufacturing defect or by bad roads?
As I said, it cant be found out from looking at the tyre from outside. Generally a bulge caused due to bad roads will show a cut on the inside of the tyre.

Quote:

Since the tyre has already been running and with the bad roads in our country, it is easy to blame it on the roads.

We never check the insides of our car tyres when we buy a new car. So a manufacturing defect can hide itself without us noticing it!
Technically you are right. That is why in an ideal case, you should check the tyres before getting it fitted to your car. Also, the fact is, 99.9% of tyres made by the company will not have any visible defects(like a small cut on the inside of the tyre).

Quote:
They did. So I am very definitely keeping away from the Acelere range henceforth.
All I can say, it's just a loss for the company. The same way Michelin have lost a lot of customers because of their soft tyres and their strict policies on not giving replacements.

Quote:
When you talk face to face, the other person can see your face and your body language and hence hazard a guess as to your intentions and meanings. When you put down words in a forum, you have to be careful because nobody would understand if you did not mean it literally.
I agree. That is why I apologise for using those words. I just allowed my passion to get the better of me. My job itself is to meet and interact with customers and hand on heart, I LOVE my job. I absolutely love it. I wouldnt give it up for anything(well, maybe being a test driver for Ferrari! : ). It's just that I also dislike arguing with customers. This is not a problem in 99.99% of the cases. But there is always one odd case where the customer starts threatening us and shouting and starts creating a scene in our shop. This is what I hate. This is a pain.

If anyone wants to misinterpret my words, they can do it irrespective of what I say.

Quote:
Please educate us to differentiate manufacturing defects / other defects so that we are wiser and the knowledge eventually spreads.

When I sell a Van Heusen shirt, the customer believes in me as much as the company that he would get a good product. But if something happens to it or he finds some defects, he is bound to be angry at both me and the company. Since he has no access to the company, he is naturally going to vent his feelings on me. It would be more if I tell him the company has to decide whether it is a genuine defect or not.

A tyre is a critical product for the vehicle. I won't be able to ravel peacefully for weeks if the tyre has to be inspected by company officials to decide its fate. There has to be an easier way.

It was only fortunate that I had another vehicle with which to transport the tyre 75kms to the company's godown and a person who need not show any identificaton inspects the tyre and rejects the claim.

Somehow it does seem unfair.
When you sell a Van Heusen shirt, you have trust in the company that it makes good quality shirts. But however good a company is, it is not infallible. Toyota is known for it's engineering prowess and reliability. However we still hear of Toyota being recalled for some minor problem or the other.

Very honestly, I dont think he has any right to be angry at you. He has a reason if you are selling a substandard product in the first place. But when you are not, I think it's highly unreasonable.

He again vents his feelings on you if you tell him the company has to decide if is defective or not. Again, it's not YOU who is doing the manufacturing. You are just selling it. He should have a problem with you if you overcharge him, dont give him good service etc. The problem in our country is that anger is always misdirected. Very few people try to think from the other person's perspective.

Of course, it's very idealistic to hope that all people in our country will start becoming reasonable and understanding us. But that doesnt mean we need to take punishment for something that is not our fault. We shouldt take abuse for something that is not in our hands.
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Old 8th February 2009, 22:51   #30
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Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
On the other hand, 99% of people who come with damaged tyres(either a sidewall cut or a bulge) are idiots.
They never accept their mistake. They think we all are fools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
Customers who claim warranty is fine. People who argue unreasonably are not fine.
This is not a problem in 99.99% of the cases. But there is always one odd case where the customer starts threatening us and shouting and starts creating a scene in our shop.
Nikhil, each of your post is sounding contradictory to each other!

First, you say 99% of customers are 'idiots', and later you say this is not a problem with 99.99% of the cases and just a odd case where customer tries to argue and shout.

Please do remember that this is Automobiles User forum, comprising mostly of owners and users of Automobiles, so when you discuss something here you need to think from the Users point of view and not the Dealer's side of things.

When it comes to tyres, most of us have only laymen's knowledge on tyres, we can never makeout from a budge on a tyre whether it is a tyre defect OR caused by bad roads etc.
Hence, please try to help us by sharing more knowledge on tyres & other related stuff, instead of blaming customers for everything.

A business enterprise thrives on their customers, so a sensible enterprise will try to keep a customer happy & satisfied to a best possible extent.
And when a customer pays Rs.3000+ for a tyre, he will definitly look for quality & value for the money he spent!
Dismissing him as an idiot is not the right way to do business!
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