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Old 8th February 2009, 23:48   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
Nikhil, each of your post is sounding contradictory to each other!

First, you say 99% of customers are 'idiots', and later you say this is not a problem with 99.99% of the cases and just a odd case where customer tries to argue and shout.

Please do remember that this is Automobiles User forum, comprising mostly of owners and users of Automobiles, so when you discuss something here you need to think from the Users point of view and not the Dealer's side of things.

When it comes to tyres, most of us have only laymen's knowledge on tyres, we can never makeout from a budge on a tyre whether it is a tyre defect OR caused by bad roads etc.
Hence, please try to help us by sharing more knowledge on tyres & other related stuff, instead of blaming customers for everything.
Arrey Baba! I already said sorry for using those words. I was just letting off some steam!

I am not blaming customers for everything.

Anyway, in this case, I categorically take back what I said in the first post you have quoted.

About the dealer's side: Well, most people on the forum give the user's side of things, so why not have a dealer's side as well?!?!

Very frankly, there is nothing that I can share which people on this forum dont already know! I've been working for only 6 months and my knowledge is nothing compared to some of the other members on this forum like Ishan, kpzen, etc. I will of course try to contribute in whatever way I can. I just need to keep a rein on my temper. lol..

And I am not blaming customers for everything! I'm very sorry if I gave that impression.

Quote:
A business enterprise thrives on their customers, so a sensible enterprise will try to keep a customer happy & satisfied to a best possible extent.
And when a customer pays Rs.3000+ for a tyre, he will definitly look for quality & value for the money he spent!
Dismissing him as an idiot is not the right way to do business!

Please stop holding the idiot word against me! I said it was a mistake. It was basically an outpouring of sentiment which led me to just generalise when I shouldnt have. I've said that clearly in this thread. Do you expect me to write a written apology and sign it?!?!

I am aware of that! Any sensible enterprise will try to keep a customer happy if it is in our hands. That is why I told in one of the earlier posts that you can get a replacement straight away from the dealer if you have a good relationship with him.

I'll give you a dealer's perspective on this.

Customer A is very well known to me. He buys tyres on a regular basis(or maybe he is just a regular customer for WA/WB). He has recently bought a set of tyres. Unfortunately, one has developed a bulge. Let us just assume it's a Michelin PP2.

I know the customer very well. I open the tyre and see that there is a cut on the inside of the tyre(this cut happens because the rim basically hits the tyre and makes the cut when you hit a pothole).

I show this to Mr. A and tell him that chances of getting a replacement from Michelin is very less. He says I need a replacement tyre. I know him quite well and I trust him not to just run away with the tyre in case the company rejects his claim. I immediately get a new tyre fitted and he leaves.

This is what you all want from the tyre dealer. We would like to give this kind of service as well.

Now, look at another case. There is Customer B. He has bought tyres from us for the first time. Another set of PP2s. He comes back 2 months later with a bulge. We dont know this customer well. He had just come for the tyres. If we give him a replacement, what guarantee do we have that when he comes to know that his claim has been rejected, he will just keep the brand new tyre that we have given him and refuse to pay us?

We are at a major loss in that case. We dont get any money from Michelin. The customer doesnt pay us. And this doesnt mean this Mr. B will come back to us because he knows if he does, we will ask him to pay for the one tyre that he took from us. I not only lose a customer, I lose money as well.

In an idealistic world where everyone is trustworthy, I can go out giving replacements without waiting for the company to respond because I know that the customer will come back and pay me for the tyre if his claim is rejected.
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Old 9th February 2009, 16:34   #32
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Nikhil, each of your post is sounding contradictory to each other !

1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
When it comes to tyres, most of us have only laymen's knowledge on tyres, we can never makeout from a budge on a tyre whether it is a tyre defect OR caused by bad roads etc.
Hence, please try to help us by sharing more knowledge on tyres & other related stuff, instead of blaming customers for everything.
2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
Please do remember that this is Automobiles User forum, comprising mostly of owners and users of Automobiles, [b]so when you discuss something here you need to think from the Users point of view and not the Dealer's side of things.[b]
Since Nikhil has already apologized more than once for what some people found offensive,there's no point harping on about the same thing,as he said,it was written in a lighter vein.

What's the point of having 'only a user's point of view' here ?? Do we want it to be an interactive learning thread or a place to vent out anger against dealers and companies ?? I agree with Nikhil when he says most customers feel that it's thier right to demand a replacement without even waiting for the tyres to be inspected or checked by the person authorised. As a customer you have to understand that a tyre dealer is exactly that, a 'dealer' he does not manufacture the tyres himself hence has no proper authority to entertain claims purely on the basis of a customers conviction that his tyre is defective and has to be replaced irrespective of what has gone wrong with it. There is a procedure to be followed which the dealer cannot override. There are many diffrent causes for tire failures,which cannot be explained in words. What I can try and do from my end is to scan as many images as possible from a couple of tyre service guides that I have and put them up here for everyone's use. Hope that would help.
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Old 9th February 2009, 17:36   #33
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Hi Nikhil,

I feel bad about my initial reply to you. Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
Generally a bulge caused due to bad roads will show a cut on the inside of the tyre.
So a cut on the inside and a bulge has to be due to bad roads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
Technically you are right. That is why in an ideal case, you should check the tyres before getting it fitted to your car. Also, the fact is, 99.9% of tyres made by the company will not have any visible defects(like a small cut on the inside of the tyre).
That is something which can be done when we change tyres. No way to do that in OEM tyres. I agree to your point that a new tyre may not leave the factory with an obvious cut in the inside.

Since a bulge usually results due to bad roads, what are the signs that could tell us that there is a manufacturing defect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
He again vents his feelings on you if you tell him the company has to decide if is defective or not. Again, it's not YOU who is doing the manufacturing. You are just selling it. He should have a problem with you if you overcharge him, dont give him good service etc. The problem in our country is that anger is always misdirected. Very few people try to think from the other person's perspective.
When a product or service is bought, though may not be reasonable, people do think only about themselves and rightly so. Responsibilty of a product sold by me lies solely in me and I can't expect the customer to go directly to the manufacturer. That is precisely what our law says. Then due to our present legal system, hardly anybody goes to the courts for customer disputes.

I have seen 10000+ silk saress brought back saying that 'colour not liked' after the function is over. All it costs for a case in the consumer forum is a white paper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
Of course, it's very idealistic to hope that all people in our country will start becoming reasonable and understanding us. But that doesnt mean we need to take punishment for something that is not our fault. We should take abuse for something that is not in our hands.
Believe me, a majority are and that is why I am still doing business. I amy not be happy with all my customers, but the few who I make happy when I listen to their problems compensates for the others.

So in the final run, what I understand that once you buy a tyre, if it does not develop a bulge prematurely, you are lucky. The manufacturers make tyres which may not be suitable for our bad roads and our government won't give us good roads. That indeed is a nice combination.

Bulges were hardly a problem in the tubed radials, I think. Are the tubeless radials more prone to these damages?
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Old 9th February 2009, 19:26   #34
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Originally Posted by trrk View Post
So a cut on the inside and a bulge has to be due to bad roads.Bulges were hardly a problem in the tubed radials, I think. Are the tubeless radials more prone to these damages ?
Technically,in most cases what causes a cut on the inside of a tyre is the edge of the wheel rim hitting the inner surface on impact / going over a kerb. Now most people disagree with this logic (understandably though) saying if there's a cut on the inside it's a manufacturing defect,since there is no visible injury outside. It's quite akin to getting a hairline fracture where you do not have an external injury but can see a swelling. What that 'cut' does is to damage the nylon cord / casing of the tyre resulting in a bulge as the rubber is no longer held together by the nylon cords. I hope this explains it a bit.
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Old 10th February 2009, 08:59   #35
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Not all tyres face such a problem. Tyres with stronger sidewall resist such an issue even when driven on terrible potholes. Michelin doesn't seem to have a strong sidewall still people are inclined to buying Michelin tyres. People buy such tyres, run over a pothole, have a bulge and then repent on buying such a tyre. Michelin doesn't seem to be listening to customer issues. This is one of the most major issues faced by Michelin customer. They shrug off this issue saying driver error. don't you think multiple repeated issue of same nature would need a serious consideration by any manufacturer? Don't you think they need to fix this issue so that the sidewall is much more resistant to cuts like some of the other tyres in the market? They can't keep blaming the customers and do nothing about this issue. Customer will one day realize that he is being taken for a ride and stop buying that brand.

Imagine how much increase in sales Michelin might have if they fix this problem.
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Old 10th February 2009, 12:01   #36
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Originally Posted by DieselFan View Post
Michelin doesn't seem to have a strong sidewall still people are inclined to buying Michelin tyres. This is one of the most major issues faced by Michelin customer.
I have not heard of many such cases with Michelin tyres.

Maybe just 2 cases on this forum, but that doesn't mean all Michelin tyres have that problem!
And if that was the case, no one would have touched Michelin tyres, and they would have shut shop long back!

The tyre bulge issue can happen to any tyres of any brand, but the problem is how would a layman user know whether it was a manufacturing defect OR caused by driving on bad roads?
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Old 10th February 2009, 12:07   #37
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if you guys think michelin owners have it bad with the bad roads and fragile tyres, you should listen to the problems BMW owners are having with their RFT's
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Old 10th February 2009, 12:35   #38
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@trrk -- It's ok. No issues

Michelin does get a lot of complaints. Not only on this forum, but even outside. Their sidewalls are quite soft compared to some other brands. As I said, Michelin and Falken are quite prone to this kind of bulges.

Let me not say more. I seem to suffer from foot-in-mouth syndrome on this thread
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Old 10th February 2009, 13:15   #39
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Originally Posted by DieselFan View Post
Michelin doesn't seem to have a strong sidewall still people are inclined to buying Michelin tyres. People buy such tyres, run over a pothole, have a bulge and then repent on buying such a tyre. Michelin doesn't seem to be listening to customer issues. This is one of the most major issues faced by Michelin customer. They shrug off this issue saying driver error. don't you think multiple repeated issue of same nature would need a serious consideration by any manufacturer? Don't you think they need to fix this issue so that the sidewall is much more resistant to cuts like some of the other tyres in the market? They can't keep blaming the customers and do nothing about this issue. Customer will one day realize that he is being taken for a ride and stop buying that brand.
Dieselfan I think you have a huge bone to pick with michelin honestly speaking,michelin's are a good set of tyres that have overall proven thier mettle over various terrain. And contrary to what you may think,besides increasing thier after-market share they're also doing better and better in the OE segment. I have personally seen a scorpio run for 1,10,000 kms shod with LTX2 tyres. And by making harder and firmer sidewalls for thier tyres they would have to compromise on comfort levels and cornering abilities of the tyres.
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Old 10th February 2009, 13:29   #40
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@wasava - Cars can't use LTX2 tyres can they. I agree the Michelins are good tyres. Good at handling, grip, comfort etc.etc. BUT ONLY when run on good roads. Only 15% of indian roads can be considered motarable on Michelin. I am not kidding here this is the fact. Go outside the main cities/metros and you find roads with potholes and roads with just stones and mud. A person travelling in India can't avoid bad roads. In which case we need tyres suitable for india. Michelin may be good but it can't handle indian roads. Hence my Rant on why Michelin is not providing tyres made for India in India.

@finneyp - Customers who buy Michelin and have driven on bad roads have faced issues in this forum and elsewhere. % of issues which crop up on michelin tyres are way higher than any other tyres (in India).
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Old 10th February 2009, 14:21   #41
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Originally Posted by DieselFan View Post
I agree the Michelins are good tyres. Good at handling, grip, comfort etc.etc. BUT ONLY when run on good roads.
Do you think Michelin didn't know about Indian road conditions before they started selling their proven tyres in India?
I guess you are assuming too much about Michelin tyres.
Quote:
Customers who buy Michelin and have driven on bad roads have faced issues in this forum and elsewhere. % of issues which crop up on michelin tyres are way higher than any other tyres (in India).
Kindly post the links of those customer experiences?

BTW I have Michelin XM1+ tyres on my car & have driven around 3000 kms on the pot-holed & hump-ridden roads in Bangalore, I didn't face any tyre bulge issues!

Last edited by finneyp : 10th February 2009 at 14:35.
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Old 10th February 2009, 14:25   #42
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Not exactly related to the thread, but since people are talking about various tyres and whether they are suited for Indian roads, has anyone used Hankook tyres? They apparently are offering a 3 year warranty, which in the beginning sounded really appealing; but now well, dont know if a warranty is even as useful as it sounds.
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Old 10th February 2009, 14:44   #43
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Originally Posted by finneyp View Post
Kindly post the links of those customer experiences?

BTW I have Michelin XM1+ tyres on my car & have driven around 3000 kms on the pot-holed & hump-ridden roads in Bangalore, I didn't face any tyre bulge issues!
On customer experiences - I suggest you to go to some of the tyre shops in Bangalore (JC road is a good place to start) and ask and you would get your answers. Nikhil has given some of his experiences as a dealer in this very thread.

Good that your tyre is holding out in Bangalore. Bangalore roads are way better than roads in other towns /highways in Karnataka.
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Old 10th February 2009, 14:45   #44
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Nikhil and Wasava, what would you recommend as a replacement for the stock tyres on the Ikon TCDI?

I was thinking Michelin XM1+ but am open to other (more reliable?) ones. I do not normally go through 'bad' roads. It is not always on highways though.
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Old 10th February 2009, 14:55   #45
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Originally Posted by DieselFan View Post
On customer experiences - I suggest you to go to some of the tyre shops in Bangalore (JC road is a good place to start) and ask and you would get your answers. Nikhil has given some of his experiences as a dealer in this very thread..
Why should I?
You only passed a blanket statement that customers who bought Michelin tyres are facing this problem!
Now, please back your claims with some facts and figures.
Quote:
Good that your tyre is holding out in Bangalore. Bangalore roads are way better than roads in other towns /highways in Karnataka.
Oh, Bangalore roads are heaven now!

And those who complained about tyre bulge issues were from Mandya, Tumkur, Davangere, Chitradurga etc ??
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