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Old 23rd June 2009, 19:10   #16
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Sir, please advice me which is the best upgrade size for ANHC under primacy LC and its price? And what is the expected price i can get for my brand new michelien company fitted tyre in exchange or is it worth retaining the company fitted michelien tyre in my car.
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Old 23rd June 2009, 20:20   #17
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Today went and enquired the dealer for the price of Michelin Primacy LC 195/60R15 . He quoted Rs.4500 per tire.
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Old 23rd June 2009, 22:18   #18
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I have a bit more time now. Let me explain in detail.

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These are ABSOLUTELY the best tyres available on the market. PERIOD.
In no possible way are they the best. If something is supposed to be the best, it has to be statistically proven and EVERYONE has to agree it's the best. No tyre in the market can be said to be the best. The Primacy LC is very new. The life of the tyre is unknown(I expect it to be in the 45-50k range), it's hardiness(resistance to sidewall bulges, cuts, damages, etc..) is untested. And you say they are the best? On what basis?

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90% Silica compound means 3% fuel efficiency gains over the MXV8s. The Tyres have less contact with the road due to their shape but offer more grip. Basically, these push the limits of science when it comes to car tires.
90% silica and all that is just marketing BS. Practically all tyres have silica in some composition or the other. Even MRF ZSLL tyres have silica in them. Would that make it the best tyre ever?

3% efficiency gains is when tested on the track in ideal conditions. Not on our martian/lunar landscape and our traffic conditions. You will anyway have a variation of more than 5-10% in your car depending on traffic.

You say the tyres offer more grip... In what way? Compared to what? More grip compared to the MXV8s? Have you used the MXV8s on the exact same strtech of road and in the same car and then repeated the exercise using the Primacy LCs?

This pushes limits of science? I dont even know how to respond to that!!!

Having said all that, I have heard(from people actually using these tyres) that they are very very silent and very comfortable.

To test the grip, handling, etc... I will be going to the Madras race track next week. Expect a detailed review then.
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Old 29th June 2009, 14:28   #19
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I do not work for Michelin. Do you work for a competitor perhaps?

I drive an E220 that was shod with 205/55/16 MXV8s. I have since changed to the LCs, first to test, then to buy. Yes, I did test them on an open wet road. Yes, I've noticed a difference in WET conditions. Not scientific enough mind you, but a difference tangible enough. As you've also confirmed, they are quieter, softer and the car maintains inertia longer when in neutral

No other tyre available on the market has as much Silica. That was my claim and the reason I believed it pushes boundaries. I'd like you to prove otherwise if you can.

Since it is an established fact that Silica in the thread compound decreases fuel consumption via lower rolling resistance, it's logical to assume that Michelin's "Marketing BS" may indeed have some truth to it afterall.
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Old 29th June 2009, 14:33   #20
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I dont work for any competitor! However, Michelin is one brand that I'm very fond of. Along with Yokohama. These two will have to be my fav tyre brands.

It's just that your post sounded very fanboyish.

Anyway, no offence meant. Peace!
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Old 29th June 2009, 14:35   #21
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chill guys,

BTW what is expected life of Primacy LC ?
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Old 29th June 2009, 15:15   #22
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Nikhil, I didn't have the time to post detailed reasoning behind my statement, so I can see what you mean.

Sunny, like Nikhil said, life is an unknown. I've spoken to tyre pros who expect it to last anywhere between 50-70K depending on a variety of factors, again due to increased Silica content in the rubber
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Old 1st July 2009, 19:56   #23
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It's not going to last 70k, I'm pretty sure of that especially in a heavy car like the E220. And as for Silica content, it is not the be all and end all of tyre construction, there are multitudes of other factors which can determine the rolling resistance including (but not limited to) tread design, sidewall construction, materials used (other than silica), tyre pressure the tyre is maintained at etc. etc.

So don't be so sure of the rolling resistance of the tyres just by that one benchmark.

As just for your info, here's a Michelin tyre with a 100% Silica-based compound: Features
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Old 1st July 2009, 23:24   #24
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This is just another low end michelin. Still though low end michelins are significantly better than the best tyres of many other brands.

Screwdriva you are fooling no one saying that these tyres will last 50-70k km. I believe these have a 320 treadwear rating. Expect them to last 40k km at max and potentially lower on a heavier car. The amount of silica in the tyre has very little to do with how long it lasts or how comfortable it is. Most of that depends on the overall composition chosen for the tyre and also the tread pattern.

If you really want tyres that push the limits of science, you'd wanna get the Pilot Sports 2 or Pilot Sports Cup.

Last edited by reignofchaos : 1st July 2009 at 23:26.
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Old 1st July 2009, 23:44   #25
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I do not know why companies are saying 90% silica is science to limits.If i remember correctly Dunlop & Continental both offers upto 100% silica compound.

Also as i understand Silica reduces rolling resistance which is great on a good road .But on our indian roads there will not be any major difference since potholes , speedbreakers , stones , kerbs etc make our road.
And it will be only beneficial on really good roads like the the Ahmedabad super expressway, some other extremely good highways.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 07:24   #26
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Quote:
in fact, it has been found that when the quantity of silica is less than 10 parts by weight for each 100 parts of polymer base, its reinforcing activity on the rubber composition and on the products obtainable therefrom is reduced, while between 60 and 80 parts by weight the workability characteristics of the rubber composition begin to drop drastically and remarkably, to become lastly no longer acceptable above 80 parts.
Process for producing a vulcanizable rubber composition with silica-based reinforcing filler - US Patent 6136913 Description

I guess you folks are confusing silica and silica based compounds.Saying 100% silica based compound means nothing. Its like saying that something is made entirely out of titanium alloy, where titanium could be just a few percent in the alloy.

Aren't marketing departments fun

Last edited by greenhorn : 2nd July 2009 at 07:36.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 09:27   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reignofchaos View Post
This is just another low end michelin. Still though low end michelins are significantly better than the best tyres of many other brands.
This is not a low end Michelin. Far from it. This is a premium comfort tyre which costs as much as a PP2. The MXV8 which this replaces were also priced more than PP2.

Comfort tyres concentrate on good ride quality, less tyre noise at the same time decent levels of grip. They need not be cheap.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 12:34   #28
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Ok. Am back from a proper Michelin attempted brainwashing session at the MMST!

Primacy LC is NOT a low end tyre. Far from it. The energy series are their low end tyres.

This has definitely lower rolling resistance than the BS ER300(that was the tyre available for comparo). But not too much. So, dont expect any major gains in fuel efficiency given our roads and driving conditions. The rolling resistance gains were demonstrated with a Vbox. At exactly 25kmph, you lift off the accelerator and put it into neutral. See which car coasts for a longer distance. the Michelin always ended up about 40-50 metres ahead. The Michelin had readings of 180, 170, etc...

But the Michelin was running on steel wheels(lesser contact patch... 15x5.5j) and the BS were on Skoda alloys(15x6j). The cars were both Skoda Octys 1.9 with 195/65 R15. I would say in the real world, the Michelin would be better, but by too less. Not really that much to make a difference in our country.

Definitely better braking ability than ER 300. Proven over and over again when the professionals were allowed to drive and even when we dealers drove the cars. Both toyota Corollas with ABS. Shod with 19/65 R15 Primacy LC and ER 300. Was measured using Vbox.

Average difference was 2.8 metres between Primacy LC and ER 300. This was braking measured from 60-0. Sometimes, the difference went down to 2.4metres.

This is close to 10 feet faster than the ER 300 which actually makes a difference in real world emergency braking.

Road noise: What road noise? super silent for sure. No tyre to compare it to though. I'm sure the DB series from Yoko is as good. But on it's own the Primacy LC is superbly silent. You can NOT hear the tyre at 60 in an Innova (which was in neutral).

Handling: Ok ish. Not bad, but not great either.

We were given Corollas with 195/60 R15 Primacy LC and RE 88. Wet track and slalom course at the end of which is a proper right handed turn.

The Primacy LC could take that right handed turn flt out at 70-80. Some sqeualing of tyres, but held it's line. The RE 88s werent too bad either.

Even during the slalom, the RE 88s were definitely not as good as the Michelins. The Michelins gave you a little more feedback(whatever you can expect from a Corolla) and you felt more in control. It also gripped marginally better. I was going faster in the Michelin than the RE 88s. In the BS, I had to slow down at one moment as I was losing control.

Last edited by Nikhilb2008 : 2nd July 2009 at 12:36.
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Old 2nd July 2009, 14:18   #29
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Very nice review . BTW, did you test the comfort levels of the tire. And the feedback when going through big potholes or patches or bumps etc. ?

Last edited by Technocrat : 2nd July 2009 at 14:55. Reason: Please avoid quoting the entire post specially when its on same page. Thanks
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Old 2nd July 2009, 15:06   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhil
Am back from a proper Michelin attempted brainwashing session at the MMST!
I was just about to give you my best regards for not letting me know .
But then, I hear it was Innova, Corolla and a Skoda on the track. So, no "compliments" for you, Nikhil.
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