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Old 11th August 2009, 17:44   #1
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Thumbs down Review of Michelin XM1 155/65/R13 on my WagonR

Car: WagonR VXi, July 2002

Date of tyre purchase: 14/Aug/2007

Odo at the time of purchase: ~30200 kms

Current car odo: ~45200 kms

Name of dealer: Darshan Tyres, F C Road, Pune

Reason: Replacement for noisy and aging (OEM) Ceat tyres

Purchase price: 9200/- for a set of four tyres + free alignment and balancing + free umbrella from dealer

Tyre usage: <2 years, ~15000Kms, city driving 90%

+ves:
  • Low road/rolling noise
  • Decent grip
  • No air loss, no punctures so far
  • Fits nicely on OEM rims, no need for alloys
  • Fuel economy increased ~1 kmpl
-Ves
  • Pricey
  • Slight error in odo (was calibrated for OEM 145/70/R13)
  • Faulty valve fitted by the dealer resulted in slow air loss from the tyre. Brought to the notice of the dealer within a month of purchase. However, they charged ~100/- for valve replacement. Expected it to be FOC.
  • Very fast tread wear- depth remaining only about 2-3 mm on all 4 tyres. Original tread depth was about 7mm (claimed by Michelin engr)
  • Has started wobbling at high speed (90+ kmph), probably because of uneven wear.
  • Lackadaisical customer support from Michelin. Reported the fast wear and wobbling issue. Their service engineer came and inspected at dealer's premises. Did not own the product issue. Just changed the balancing weights on a rear tyre and washed hands. Insisted I continue with it :(
  • Expected a decent warranty/buyback policy either from Michelin or the dealer.
Verdict:

These tyres are good on ear and ride comfort but bad on wallet. After spending almost ten grands I expected them to last for at least 35-40K kms. But, now I have to replace them in next 6-12 months or so. My car is well maintained (in last 15k, I have had couple of tyre rotations, wheel balancing and alignmenets done), hence, it is not due to car suspension, alignment etc.

If you want long term economy and can sacrifice a bit of road noise, stay away from XM1s.

-BJ

Last edited by bj96 : 11th August 2009 at 17:53. Reason: typos
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Old 11th August 2009, 17:55   #2
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How is your driving style ? It might contribute to the early aging you mentioned.
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Old 11th August 2009, 17:57   #3
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I'l take the -ves one by one.

1). Price: Yes. ALL Michelin tyres are expensive.

2). You call this an error? Can you tell me exactly how much error was there? This is just in your mind. How do oyu know that the speedo/odo was showing the correct readings on stock tyres?

3). Well, this is something he should have done FOC. However, I dont know the facts. How d you know the valve was faulty? Could you give me some more details on that?

4). Fast Tread wear: Yes. This was the HUGE problem with XM1. That is why now, the XM1+ is available. It is only recently that the XM1+ has been ntroduced in sizes like 155/65 R13, 165/65R13, 155/70R13, etc... In most other sizes, the XM1+ has been in the market for more than a year. They last long. Much much longer than the XM1. The XM1+ should last around 50k kms.

5). The company will not support you. It's your bad luck that you bought a product that was not really meant for the Indian market. As a goodwill measure, Michelin should have done something, but then it becomes too expensive for them to do this for ALL XM1 owners.

6). Uneven Wear? You cant blame the tyres for that! That's ridiculous! If it's an alignment problem which has led to uneven wear which in turn led to wobbling, how in the world can you expect Michelin to take responsibility? Where did you get Alignment done? If you have uneven wear, it could mean that either alignment was not done properly or the pressures werent maintained properly. What sort of uneven wear is it? Details please

7). Buyback: This what I meant when I said as a goodwill measure Michelin should have done something but then it would have cost them so much, they may as well close shop and return to France!

Why in the world do you expect the dealer to buy back the tyres at a decent price? He didnt design the tyres. He didnt manufacture them. It's likely that when he sold oyu the tyres, he didnt even know about the fast wear! It's ridiculous to expect him to cover for Michelin's faulty design.

Last edited by Nikhilb2008 : 11th August 2009 at 17:59.
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Old 11th August 2009, 20:38   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prince_pervez View Post
How is your driving style ? It might contribute to the early aging you mentioned.
I like to drive around sweet rpm range in each gear. No fast takeoff or noisy racing for me. 80-90 on highways and 50-60 in the city, traffic permitting. I get ~14 kmpl consistently.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post

1). Price: Yes. ALL Michelin tyres are expensive.
That's all the more reason to be disappointed with the outcome.

2). ...
How do oyu know that the speedo/odo was showing the correct readings on stock tyres?

I am talking in relative terms. The odo speed at same rpm (oem tacho) is different than it was with stock 145/70...don't remember the exact speed, but its wee bit higher before.

3). ... How d you know the valve was faulty? Could you give me some more details on that?

Because, he immersed the tyre in tub filled with water, the base of valve was leaking (air bubbles), deflated the tyre, took it off the rim and replaced w/ a new one in front of me. The problem was fixed. It will need more than a moron to disbelieve that the valve was NOT faulty.

4). Fast Tread wear: Yes. This was the HUGE problem with XM1. That is why now, the XM1+ is available. It is only recently that the XM1+... should last around 50k kms.

Does not help me. I paid for XM1 and that's what I have. If it was untested, faulty etc why don't they admit and replace mine? I feel cheated...

5). ... Michelin should have done something, but then it becomes too expensive for them to do this for ALL XM1 owners.

Put yourself in my shoes and imagine sqandering hard earned, TDS deducted, 9hrs/day slogged 10 grands for such crap!


6). Uneven Wear? You cant blame the tyres for that! That's ridiculous! If it's an alignment problem which has led to uneven wear which in turn led to wobbling, how in the world can you expect Michelin to take responsibility? Where did you get Alignment done? If you have uneven wear, it could mean that either alignment was not done properly or the pressures werent maintained properly. What sort of uneven wear is it? Details please

Refer my original post. In last 15k, I already had tyre maintenance (rotation, balancing, alignment) done twice. Maruti recommends 10k kms for alignment. Service engineer, who attended my complaint admitted no alignment issue. It was checked at dealer's premise itself. He found balancing issue on one of the wheel- but it does not explain the fast wear on all wheel. Service engineer had a small tread depth meter, he checked the tread depth at various sections on each tyres and found it to be varying between 2- 3mm. What gives?


7). Buyback: This what I meant when I said as a goodwill measure Michelin should have done something but then it would have cost them so much, they may as well close shop and return to France!

By any chance do you work/sell for them? I think like batteries, a good part of tyres can be recycled and hence, like batteries, there is a potential of buyback as part of warranty policy. I wish Michelin as a leader could be different and more appealing than the rest in this regard.

Why in the world do you expect the dealer to buy back the tyres at a decent price?...
It's ridiculous to expect him to cover for Michelin's faulty design.

No. It isn't. He sold them to me and pocketed the part of Michelin's profit. At least he could admit the fault and represent my case strongly to Michelin and tried to win back my confidence. He is my window to Michelin. Sadly, the experience has alienated me from them. If I have two options A and B, all things being equal, I will avoid party A and go to B, if I have prior experience of alienation from A.

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Old 11th August 2009, 21:06   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bj96 View Post
I think like batteries, a good part of tyres can be recycled .
You think wrong. Tyres are not recyclable since rubber is a thermosetting polymer.

Unless retreaded, used tyres are ground to rubber crumb (Valued at Rs. 10/kg), and the steel cords are sold as metal scrap.
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Old 11th August 2009, 21:18   #6
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nikhil, dont take it personally dude. If i didnt know you better, I'd think you were a michelin rep or something

By your arguement , you would have to blame all skoda fabia 1.4 customers for buying a product not designed for india, and let skoda entirely off the hook. We dont do that, do we ?
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Old 11th August 2009, 21:25   #7
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My Waong-R has been running on Michelin XM1s for the past 29k kms. No issues, no punctures as of now and no airloss too. No uneven tireware. Still good amount of thread is left. Guess would come for another 10-15k kms and 40k is a very good tyre life for Michelins being soft compound.

Overall, I am very very very satisfied and will go for Michelins next time too.

Last edited by ravi@64bhp : 11th August 2009 at 21:27.
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Old 11th August 2009, 21:30   #8
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I think the major issue bj96 is facing is fast tread wear.
And the explanation given - that the product was not really designed for India, is quite disappointing. From a customer's perspective, this is nothing less than CHEATING on the manufacturer's part.
I really hope companies stop taking Indian customers for a ride.
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Old 11th August 2009, 21:36   #9
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bj96, you have explained it well..

I have been using "XM1+" on my Palio Adventure and have done close to 10K kms and can some some wear already on all the tyres, remember that Turanza's were looking good even after 25k kms on my OHC...

Also "air loss" is an issue, need to fill air frequently. have got the valves changed but no help:(

On ride quality, i guess all the tyres in this segment is known for good ride quality, else its not worth the money...

anyhow am waiting for the tyres to wear out soon so that i can switch to "Turanza's"

Last edited by lohithrao : 11th August 2009 at 21:40.
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Old 11th August 2009, 22:26   #10
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I'm only trying to present the other side of the case. While I can understand the OP feeling cheated, there is no point in blaming the dealer for something he isnt responsible for. I'm not a Michelin rep or anything. I'm equally associated with all other tyre companies. It just happens that my two favourite tyre brands in India are Michelin and Yokohama. So, it's natural that I will tend to defending these two companies. However, there is no escaping the matter that the XM1 tyres were not the best thing made by Michelin.

Quote:
1). Price: Yes. ALL Michelin tyres are expensive.
That's all the more reason to be disappointed with the outcome.
I agree with you. You seem to be misinterpreting it. I do feel bad for you. I'm not supporting Michelin. Show me one sentence in my post in which I'm supporting Michelin for introducing these tyres in India.
Quote:

2). ...
How do oyu know that the speedo/odo was showing the correct readings on stock tyres?

I am talking in relative terms. The odo speed at same rpm (oem tacho) is different than it was with stock 145/70...don't remember the exact speed, but its wee bit higher before.
hmmmm ok. But that is to be expected on ANY tyre of 155/65 R13. It is not Michelin's fault.

Quote:
3). ... How d you know the valve was faulty? Could you give me some more details on that?

Because, he immersed the tyre in tub filled with water, the base of valve was leaking (air bubbles), deflated the tyre, took it off the rim and replaced w/ a new one in front of me. The problem was fixed. It will need more than a moron to disbelieve that the valve was NOT faulty.
Ok. I get it now. The valve may not have been faulty. I suspect there was a speck of rust or corrosion on the rim which allowed a tiny amount of air to escape slowly. It is quite frequent. It should not have happened though because the dealer should have checked it before fitting the tubeless neck. At the very least he should have done it FOC when you went back to him.

Quote:
4). Fast Tread wear: Yes. This was the HUGE problem with XM1. That is why now, the XM1+ is available. It is only recently that the XM1+... should last around 50k kms.

Does not help me. I paid for XM1 and that's what I have. If it was untested, faulty etc why don't they admit and replace mine? I feel cheated...

Dont bite my head off! I know it doesnt help you. I'm just posting the facts here!

About replacing the tyre, as I said, it is simple economics. They will lose much more money than if they just ignore/dismiss you and lose a customer. If they do it for you, they have to do it for everyone else who complains.

Michelin is a little anal when it comes to rules. They dont make exceptions at all.

Quote:
5). ... Michelin should have done something, but then it becomes too expensive for them to do this for ALL XM1 owners.

Put yourself in my shoes and imagine sqandering hard earned, TDS deducted, 9hrs/day slogged 10 grands for such crap!
I totally understand your feelings. Which is why I feel I dont deserve the tone of your post. I was just explaining the company's position.

Quote:
6). Uneven Wear? You cant blame the tyres for that! That's ridiculous! If it's an alignment problem which has led to uneven wear which in turn led to wobbling, how in the world can you expect Michelin to take responsibility? Where did you get Alignment done? If you have uneven wear, it could mean that either alignment was not done properly or the pressures werent maintained properly. What sort of uneven wear is it? Details please

Refer my original post. In last 15k, I already had tyre maintenance (rotation, balancing, alignment) done twice. Maruti recommends 10k kms for alignment. Service engineer, who attended my complaint admitted no alignment issue. It was checked at dealer's premise itself. He found balancing issue on one of the wheel- but it does not explain the fast wear on all wheel. Service engineer had a small tread depth meter, he checked the tread depth at various sections on each tyres and found it to be varying between 2- 3mm. What gives?
Leave the fast wear issue aside. As I said, that is a design fault with the tyre. I'm wondering about the uneven wear.

Could you please post pics of the uneven wear?

Quote:
7). Buyback: This what I meant when I said as a goodwill measure Michelin should have done something but then it would have cost them so much, they may as well close shop and return to France!

By any chance do you work/sell for them? I think like batteries, a good part of tyres can be recycled and hence, like batteries, there is a potential of buyback as part of warranty policy. I wish Michelin as a leader could be different and more appealing than the rest in this regard.
Hehe. Thankfully I dont owe allegiance to any tyre company. But I do deal with them every single day.

And old tyres dont have any value. If you want to believe me, do so. Otherwise, dont! A completely worn out tyre might fetch between 100-150/- a piece. That too to the raddiwalas who strip and extract the rubber for other purposes. NOT for tyres!


Quote:
Why in the world do you expect the dealer to buy back the tyres at a decent price?...
It's ridiculous to expect him to cover for Michelin's faulty design.

No. It isn't. He sold them to me and pocketed the part of Michelin's profit. At least he could admit the fault and represent my case strongly to Michelin and tried to win back my confidence. He is my window to Michelin. Sadly, the experience has alienated me from them. If I have two options A and B, all things being equal, I will avoid party A and go to B, if I have prior experience of alienation from A.
No offence, but with Michelin, there is no point in the dealer doing anything. The company will NOT budge. As I said earlier, they are a little anal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
nikhil, dont take it personally dude. If i didnt know you better, I'd think you were a michelin rep or something

By your arguement , you would have to blame all skoda fabia 1.4 customers for buying a product not designed for india, and let skoda entirely off the hook. We dont do that, do we ?
If I didnt know you better, I would think you were dumb

Where do you see me supporting Michelin bringing in this 'not made for India tyre' to India? People at TBHP are ready to criticise the companies at the drop of a hat. Very few try to see the other side.

And do understand, I was just trying to explain the other side of the coin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCEite View Post
I think the major issue bj96 is facing is fast tread wear.
And the explanation given - that the product was not really designed for India, is quite disappointing. From a customer's perspective, this is nothing less than CHEATING on the manufacturer's part.
I really hope companies stop taking Indian customers for a ride.
I agree partially with you. One good thing however is that Michelin were reasonably quick to replace the XM1 in almost all sizes with the XM1+. I guiess they HAD to. Otherwise, it would have been BYE BYE Bibendum!

I dont agree with the term cheating. I feel that Michelin made a huge mistake with the XM1. When they realised their mistake, they scrambled to correct it because they would suffer in the long run. There are so many people like bj96 who would not go back to Michelin because of this issue.

Their mistake will cost them crores of rupees due to people who have been unhappy with Michelin. Even though the XM1+ may give a much longer life, people will be hesitant to try them. They will definitely try something else.

You cannot just say a company is CHEATING just because they made a mistake. Will you say that Maruti CHEATED Indian customers initially because the Baleno was much higher priced than it was at the end of it's life? Maruti made a mistake. They paid for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lohithrao View Post
bj96, you have explained it well..

I have been using "XM1+" on my Palio Adventure and have done close to 10K kms and can some some wear already on all the tyres, remember that Turanza's were looking good even after 25k kms on my OHC...

Also "air loss" is an issue, need to fill air frequently. have got the valves changed but no help:(

On ride quality, i guess all the tyres in this segment is known for good ride quality, else its not worth the money...

anyhow am waiting for the tyres to wear out soon so that i can switch to "Turanza's"
Have you checked the beading? Are you using Steel rims or alloys? Checked the valve pin? I'm just curious as to how this air loss doesnt seem to have a reason. Could you please explain more?

Not once did I say I support the company. But people here dont seem to want to know more about the company's policies and anyone not agreeing totally with the OP is ridiculed. Please read the entire post and understand it before jumping down my throat.
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Old 11th August 2009, 22:31   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bj96 View Post
Verdict:

These tyres are good on ear and ride comfort but bad on wallet. After spending almost ten grands I expected them to last for at least 35-40K kms. But, now I have to replace them in next 6-12 months or so. My car is well maintained (in last 15k, I have had couple of tyre rotations, wheel balancing and alignmenets done), hence, it is not due to car suspension, alignment etc.

If you want long term economy and can sacrifice a bit of road noise, stay away from XM1s.

-BJ
I second that verdict, somehow I have managed to extend them to 32k km in my Zen. They will not last more than 2000 km now. Otherwise very good tyres.
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Old 11th August 2009, 22:37   #12
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companies exist for profit, and any corrective measures made are in their own self interest, as in this case , else they would have not stayed in the market. customers do not take kindly to being guinea pigs and having to pay for it. Sure , michelin made better tyres in the end, but customers did lose their money for no fault of theirs.Better that customers lose money than michelin india lose theirs huh! the corrections made benefit only them, not any of their existing customers. It would not have killed michelin to test the tyres on indian cars and terrain before launching them. I find it hard to sympathize.

Last edited by greenhorn : 11th August 2009 at 22:46.
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Old 11th August 2009, 22:47   #13
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Originally Posted by greenhorn View Post
companies exist for profit, and any corrective measures made are in their own self interest, as in this case , else they would have not stayed in the market. customers do not take kindly to being guinea pigs and having to pay for it. Sure , michelin made better tyres in the end, but customers did lose their money for no fault of theirs.Better that customers lose money than michelin india lose theirs huh! the corrections made benefit only them, not any of the customers. It would not have killed michelin to test the tyres on indian cars and terrain before launching them. I find it hard to sympathize.

Explaining the other side ? Your post looked more like justifying it, and others seem to have understood it the same way. Maybe there is some communication gap here which I am not aware of
I agree completely with your post. That is why I'm saying that Michelin are going to pay for their mistake. Didnt Maruti Baleno customers lose their money for no fault of theirs? Once the prices came down, the resale value of their cars dropped like stones. Why is it that we both are saying the same thing and somehow still missing each other's point!?!

I'm not sympathising with them. Far from it.

I think the communication gap here is that everyone is expected to be blasting Michelin and cursing them for giving us a product without properly testing it. I'm not doing that and instantly, I seem to be on a different level to most of you.
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Old 11th August 2009, 22:49   #14
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nikhil, sorry for the last line. Re read your original post , i guess there WAS a communication gap from my end . was already deleted by the time you had posted
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Old 12th August 2009, 02:01   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bj96 View Post
Slight error in odo (was calibrated for OEM 145/70/R13)
That's your mistake not the company's. When you upsize the OD error is your problem, the company does not give you any assurances on the OD error issue. If you're so paranoid about the OD, stick to stock size and DO NOT upsize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bj96 View Post
Very fast tread wear- depth remaining only about 2-3 mm on all 4 tyres. Original tread depth was about 7mm (claimed by Michelin engr)
Hard to believe that would happen in normal usage without any problems. My set(s) lasted 40k minimum or more with mostly hard usage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bj96 View Post
Has started wobbling at high speed (90+ kmph), probably because of uneven wear.
No that's because of balance issues or bent rims. Tyres can't be blamed for that unless you have evidence otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bj96 View Post
Lackadaisical customer support from Michelin. Reported the fast wear and wobbling issue. Their service engineer came and inspected at dealer's premises. Did not own the product issue. Just changed the balancing weights on a rear tyre and washed hands. Insisted I continue with it :(
Neither is an issue Michelin will address. Do not expect anything more from ANY OTHER tyre company in India.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bj96 View Post
Expected a decent warranty/buyback policy either from Michelin or the dealer.
Sorry, that's not the dealers responsibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bj96 View Post
If you want long term economy and can sacrifice a bit of road noise, stay away from XM1s.
That's misplaced. My set(s) lasted 40k kms each or more and so did for a lot of other users. Simply because you're an exception is no reason for us to believe the tyres are defective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCEite View Post
I think the major issue bj96 is facing is fast tread wear.
And the explanation given - that the product was not really designed for India, is quite disappointing. From a customer's perspective, this is nothing less than CHEATING on the manufacturer's part.
I really hope companies stop taking Indian customers for a ride.
XM1 has been used my many users on this forum without any issues. If BJ has had issues, how can that be the norm? And if you want companies to stop taking us for a ride, I suggest you start with Maruti etc and worK your way up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lohithrao View Post
Also "air loss" is an issue, need to fill air frequently. have got the valves changed but no help:(
Sorry Lohith, but in case of the air loss issue, get your rims checked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by breezydrive View Post
I second that verdict, somehow I have managed to extend them to 32k km in my Zen. They will not last more than 2000 km now. Otherwise very good tyres.
So everyone else who had no issues and their tyres lasted 40k or more is not telling the truth?
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