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Old 23rd April 2010, 20:00   #1
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Default Tyre Burst - Preventing the dangerous consequences

Mod Note : GTO's Tyre Burst Article has been uploaded at this link (ARTICLE: How to handle (and prevent) a Tyre Burst / Blowout). Please continue the discussion on the new thread.

Airless tyres are 5 years into their making, but yet to see commercial production. These need to be proved extensively, particularly for tall MUVs / SUVs, where consequences of failure could be disastrous. Hoping they are launched at the earliest.

In the interim, I was just thinking of a solution, wherein additional wheels could be mounted on the same hub on the sides, as in the rear wheels of trucks. But these wheels should be of a slightly smaller diameter, so that they take over only when the tyre bursts (having them of the same diameter would obviously result in difficulty in steering). I am trying to attach a simple sketch I made shortly, to illustrate what I am thinking.

Issues regarding steering would still arise once the main tyre fails, on account of the different turning radius of the emergency / back up wheel. However, this is better than trying to control a vehicle at high speed with a burst tyre without the back up.

Any expert thoughts on the feasibility of this ?

Last edited by GTO : 8th November 2012 at 09:25. Reason: Adding link to tyre burst article
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Old 24th April 2010, 05:25   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooza View Post
Airless tyres are 5 years into their making, but yet to see commercial production. These need to be proved extensively, particularly for tall MUVs / SUVs, where consequences of failure could be disastrous. Hoping they are launched at the earliest.

In the interim, I was just thinking of a solution, wherein additional wheels could be mounted on the same hub on the sides, as in the rear wheels of trucks. But these wheels should be of a slightly smaller diameter, so that they take over only when the tyre bursts (having them of the same diameter would obviously result in difficulty in steering). I am trying to attach a simple sketch I made shortly, to illustrate what I am thinking.

Issues regarding steering would still arise once the main tyre fails, on account of the different turning radius of the emergency / back up wheel. However, this is better than trying to control a vehicle at high speed with a burst tyre without the back up.

Any expert thoughts on the feasibility of this ?
Mozza, I don't feel it would be technical feasible to attach the 2nd wheel on the same hub.
My $0.02 on avoiding tyre burst are:
--> Insure the correct tyre pressure, every-time you go to the petrol pump.Just make it a habit, even though you are visiting petrol pump multiple times a week.(Make sure the meter is not faulty)
-->Driving very slowly in rough roads, to prevent wear and tear.
--> Lastly, upgrade to the tubeless tyres, if you are on OEM Tube Tyres
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Old 24th April 2010, 10:24   #3
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I don't think you need to reinvent the wheel.
Tyre bursts are now almost a thing of the past with tubeless tyres,sealants like Slime and nitrogen.
And there's even more safer technologies like Run-Flat Tyres.
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Old 25th April 2010, 15:26   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashishsonileo View Post
Mozza, I don't feel it would be technical feasible to attach the 2nd wheel on the same hub.
Upgrade to the tubeless tyres, if you are on OEM Tube Tyres
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrous View Post
Tyre bursts are now almost a thing of the past. And there's even more safer technologies like Run-Flat Tyres.
Well, Ashish and Nitrous, I do see your viewpoints. But tyre bursts incidents have taken place with a couple of my acquaintances, with bad consequences to both man and the machine, in each case. This is what prompted me to think on this topic. Also, if you see the thread below, they have occured with tubeless tyres on a Xylo as well !

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...-new-xylo.html (Tyre burst in brand new xylo!)

Safer technologies like run flat, airless tyres etc. are yet to be seen on the roads, in spite of several years of development, hence this interim thought .

Passenger aircrafts land safely in the event of a tyre burst, on account of back up tyre clusters. Are the lives of automobile users on the road any cheaper ?

Hey, I could finally upload the rough sketch that I made :

Tyre Burst - Preventing the dangerous consequences-img_1410.jpg


The emergency outboard wheels will not touch the road under normal circumstances. They will take over only in the event of a tyre burst.

Last edited by mooza : 25th April 2010 at 15:37.
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Old 25th April 2010, 18:55   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooza View Post
Well, Ashish and Nitrous, I do see your viewpoints. But tyre bursts incidents have taken place with a couple of my acquaintances, with bad consequences to both man and the machine, in each case. This is what prompted me to think on this topic. Also, if you see the thread below, they have occured with tubeless tyres on a Xylo as well !

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...-new-xylo.html (Tyre burst in brand new xylo!)

Safer technologies like run flat, airless tyres etc. are yet to be seen on the roads, in spite of several years of development, hence this interim thought .

Passenger aircrafts land safely in the event of a tyre burst, on account of back up tyre clusters. Are the lives of automobile users on the road any cheaper ?

Hey, I could finally upload the rough sketch that I made :

Attachment 337513


The emergency outboard wheels will not touch the road under normal circumstances. They will take over only in the event of a tyre burst.

I dont think it will be feasible.Many things in the vehicle will needed to be changed.Extra weight will also be added.
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Old 26th April 2010, 14:29   #6
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And how will one fill air in the inner tyres?
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Old 26th April 2010, 18:52   #7
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I do respect the idea but I don't think it's feasible. I can understand any how it can be managed in the rear (of course with the lot's of changes may be to the chassis level) but how about adding them in the Front wheel?
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Old 26th April 2010, 19:43   #8
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3 points:

1. Even if this was technically feasible, it would be at an extremely high cost, and might not be commercially viable for the manufacturer as very few vuyers would opt for it.
2. It is more of a question.
How do you think the vehicle in your example having tubeless tyres had an accident? You need to know the "cause" of accident, before giving a solution (I assume you know it, so the next question)
Based on your answer for the above question, how can your proposal avoid that same "cause" of accident.
3. If only one tyre burst (say LHS) and the "Extra" smaller wheel comes in contact with the road, and the RHS has the original sized tyre, how do you think the differential will behave (even on a straight road) and how do you think the vehicle will steer? (I am sure you have an answer for this also. Pardon me if it is too obvious and I missed it)

And also as mentioned rightly by Pradip, why protect only the rear wheels? (Any statistics suggesting the rear wheels are more prone to bursting?)

But, I really appreciate your "out of the box" thinking. Thinkers like you bring all the positive change in the world.

Last edited by vasanthn21 : 26th April 2010 at 19:45.
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Old 26th April 2010, 19:52   #9
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Instead of having one tyre besides the other, why not have one tyre/tube inside the other? You'll have the trouble of checking the pressure twice for the same wheel, but atleast adds a factor of safety. In addition, you potentially save on the extra mechanical cost and weight.
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Old 26th April 2010, 20:38   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomi View Post
And how will one fill air in the inner tyres?
Maybe the valves have to be relocated to the inner sides, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pradipk View Post
I do respect the idea but I don't think it's feasible. I can understand any how it can be managed in the rear (of course with the lot's of changes may be to the chassis level) but how about adding them in the Front wheel?
Oh, I just gave the example of the truck tyres for the rear wheels to make the picture clear since I was unable to upload my sketch in the first post. Actually I meant this for all the 4 wheels !

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasanthn21 View Post
If only one tyre burst (say LHS) and the "Extra" smaller wheel comes in contact with the road, and the RHS has the original sized tyre, how do you think the differential will behave (even on a straight road) and how do you think the vehicle will steer? (I am sure you have an answer for this also. Pardon me if it is too obvious and I missed it)
And also as mentioned rightly by Pradip, why protect only the rear wheels? (Any statistics suggesting the rear wheels are more prone to bursting?)

But, I really appreciate your "out of the box" thinking. Thinkers like you bring all the positive change in the world.

Thanks Vasanth. All your observations are really valid, points taken .

Regarding your 3rd point, there is some technology by means of which the exact opposite tyre gets deflated simultaneously by communicating with the burst tyre pressure sensor. I am trying to look this up. So, after the burst, the vehicle will ride either on the inner or outer set of wheels, depending on which tyre has burst. This should take care of the differential problem, I think.
Again, there will be price implications. But I would rather forego some of the other bells and whistles of my vehicle to have this, particularly in my MUVs !

Quote:
Originally Posted by gopalnayak View Post
Instead of having one tyre besides the other, why not have one tyre/tube inside the other? You'll have the trouble of checking the pressure twice for the same wheel, but atleast adds a factor of safety. In addition, you potentially save on the extra mechanical cost and weight.
Hey, a different idea there, so some more food for thought
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Old 27th April 2010, 15:55   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gopalnayak View Post
Instead of having one tyre besides the other, why not have one tyre/tube inside the other? You'll have the trouble of checking the pressure twice for the same wheel, but atleast adds a factor of safety. In addition, you potentially save on the extra mechanical cost and weight.
I am having trouble imagining how this would work. Do you want to throw some more light on this Gopal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooza View Post
Thanks Vasanth. All your observations are really valid, points taken .

Regarding your 3rd point, there is some technology by means of which the exact opposite tyre gets deflated simultaneously by communicating with the burst tyre pressure sensor. I am trying to look this up. So, after the burst, the vehicle will ride either on the inner or outer set of wheels, depending on which tyre has burst. This should take care of the differential problem, I think.
There you go, I knew you would have something up your sleeve. I know of the technology which measures the current tyre pressure, I did not know something existed that could deflate a tyre when required. Do let me know if you find something about this.

You still haven't answered my question on the "cause" of accidents in case of tubeless tyres on bursting
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Old 27th April 2010, 17:24   #12
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I have to admit that TBHP is not just a forum full of Petroheads. Its more of an institution for Plethora of Knowledge and path breaking ideas. Kudos for all the Bhp Brains around.

Now coming to the tyre burst, I feel its more often than not the "EVER CHANGING, NEVER THE SAME" Indian Roads to blame. Lets face it guys, if our roads would stay the way they were built, I'm pretty sure we would have Better Tyres and much better Cars rolling around.
Point is that as nitrous has explained, Run flat tyres might well be Standardized by all manufacturers in India.
Atleast we Bangloreans know that if we have to purchase even a 5lk Car today, upwards of 50k would only be for the road tax, for roads that arn't even worth 5 bucks a meter !! Just when you think that there is fresh tarmac laid around your neighbourhood, some department will come down and dig it up.

If its with the MUV's and Offroaders, well these tyres are designed for abuse and punishment! Its a different story if there tyres burst on a flat tarmac through!!
I really appreciate the whole idea mooza but if our tarmac would atleast stay metalled, I guess even the Manufactures would be concentrating on Performance orientation from there vehicles rather than comfort and safety for bumpy Indian roads.

Last edited by Vik0728 : 27th April 2010 at 17:27.
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Old 27th April 2010, 21:10   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasanthn21 View Post
I am having trouble imagining how this would work. Do you want to throw some more light on this Gopal?
Visualize this as two concentric tyres: one tyre over another mounted on the same rim. Air needs to be filled into the inner tyre first. Inflate the outer type to fill in the remaining space and to get the correct outer size.

In case of a burst, the inner tyre is still there to prevent you from going off the track. There could be a case where the inner tyre could also burst along with the outer one. But the probability would be the square of the outer one only going burst. The probability is very small and you can't design for all double faults! I think this will work well only if both the tyres are tubeless.
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Old 27th April 2010, 23:30   #14
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Good idea GopalNayak. Your idea actually reminded me of something I had seen long back. Here is the link

Singapore Car-Owner's Guide: Michelin's "The Tweel" Tyres

It is called Michellin Tweel tyre. It is flexible, and burst/puncture proof. I have no idea about the life of this tyre and how it would behave on Indian roads!

Mooza -> this is a very practical and (more economical) solution to the problem you mentioned. Don't you agree? I think the inventor of this tyre did a little more out of the box thinking and got this brilliant solution. Somehow, I was not reminded of this until GopaslNayak explained his plan of concentric tubes.

EDIT: Justdid a search on team-BHP and there are many articles discussing Tweel, airless tyre etc. For a quick look,see here.
- from the video it looks like it can handle bad terrain pretty well.

Last edited by vasanthn21 : 27th April 2010 at 23:44.
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Old 28th April 2010, 00:29   #15
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Its a good idea mooza, but i dont think it ll work..

1) The extra unsprung weight will reduce fuel efficiency
2) The costs will increase
3) Tyre blowouts dont contribute to accidents in enough numbers to warrant such action
4) Being from the rubber industry, I can assure you that the tyre in your car has been engineered to near perfection. If one just maintains the right air pressure, blowouts are a very remote possibility.

Last edited by AbhiJ : 28th April 2010 at 00:34.
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