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Old 29th December 2011, 12:11   #16
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

KPS, will look forward to that!!
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Old 30th December 2011, 00:40   #17
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Good to hear that some new cars shall be seen.

Hope this years the so called Knowledgeable Judges know a little more about Vintage and Classic cars and there is justice in their judgement and not like the last couple of years!!

Unfortunately, shall miss the Rally as will be out of the country.
I too hope that the judging will be of a far better standard than what we all are used too. But I guess it's a little too much to ask for.

After all, unlike most other car events, the judges have remained the same year after year and this in my view is one of the key problems.

1) Rotation is required, get some new judges from other cities every year, let them see the cars for the first time. I'm sure this will lead to an improvement in the judging standards.

2) Some of us should team up in Kolkata and get another leading daily or magazine to start a better organised event as an alternative, though this is easier said than done.

3) Make those cars which have won multiple trophies in the previous year, ineligible for the same trophy this year and why not I ask? Pebble Beach has the same cars in the same mint condition coming up at the event year after year but once the car gets the 'Best of Show' then it's not going to get it the next year.

These are only a few points which I've just thought of as I type. If atleast one of the above changes is incorporated (and I do not say this with any vested interest), the Statesman Rally will be a better event for one and all.

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mbz180

P.S. I don't want to sound pompous, but in all honestly I am reasonably sure that I know more about the cars and their originality etc. a tad bit more than some of our learned judges do
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Old 30th December 2011, 11:59   #18
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

This has been a long standing issue that is difficult to rectify.

Would suggest that to those concerned, that they write directly to the Statesman with their concerns and offer some suggestions.

The Delhi Rally has a great group of knowledgable enthusiasts supporting the event. They have created a spread sheet to tabulate the scores and assist in the awarding of the Trophies. Even some of the restoration shops are involved in the judging. I'm sure with the hot competition, they too have their differences of opinions re the trophy awards. Worth attending!

For the time being, keep your expectations LOW, enjoy the event, and as I have said to many deflated owners over the years, the most important thing is to have done your best and those that know cars will recognized which cars should have topped the list.

Personally, I no longer take the trophy awards seriously and just enjoy seeing
this remarkable event.
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Old 30th December 2011, 13:57   #19
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

Guys please take some good pics of the cars that come and post them on this thread. It will be a feast for the eyes to see the cars of the Raj.
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Old 31st December 2011, 08:39   #20
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Mbz180, most of your points make sense but as John said participation is more important than the prizes.

Yes, there is need for a Vintage and Classic owners group to be formed in Kolkata. It will help all connected with it here as well it should bring in awareness of the cars of old to our society. So why do you not along with like minded people start on that?

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Old 31st December 2011, 09:55   #21
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

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Originally Posted by predatorwheelz View Post
We usually form a small group and go on Saturday. Watch the judging, talk to the owners, take photos - a good outing . Come along with us.
Predatorwheelz, will you please let us know when are you planning to visit the cars on Saturday and where do I go to see the cars? I am also very much interested to have a look. Unfortunately next Sunday I have to visit one of my friend's farmhouse near Ranaghat, so Saturday is my only chance to see these cars participating at the rally.
Warm regards,
Rahul
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Old 2nd January 2012, 13:54   #22
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To all Calcutta vintage/classic car fans a suggestion.Stop thinking of prizes and just enjoy your cars.Sadly over the years the movement has begun to be dominated by restorers/traders who clamour for prizes and the very next day offer their PRIZE WINNERS for sale.And this is an all India phenomenon.I mean no offense to any one and this is just my opinion as an old timer who has seen these rallies for decades.I have said so in the past and I say it again.I have not come across a single judge who is knowledgeable about all the models that come to be judged.And I agree that once a particular car has been awarded a prize that car should not be given a prize at least in the same category for say three years.Best would be a momento to all participants and no prizes.But then these are just an old timers rambles.
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Old 2nd January 2012, 15:44   #23
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

Agree with Bulldogji on this point

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Originally Posted by Bulldogji View Post
To all Calcutta vintage/classic car fans a suggestion.Stop thinking of prizes and just enjoy your cars.Sadly over the years the movement has begun to be dominated by restorers/traders who clamour for prizes and the very next day offer their PRIZE WINNERS for sale.And this is an all India phenomenon.I mean no offense to any one and this is just my opinion as an old timer who has seen these rallies for decades.I have said so in the past and I say it again.I have not come across a single judge who is knowledgeable about all the models that come to be judged.And I agree that once a particular car has been awarded a prize that car should not be given a prize at least in the same category for say three years.Best would be a momento to all participants and no prizes.But then these are just an old timers rambles.
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Old 2nd January 2012, 23:55   #24
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An interesting "Definition" of two types of Judges.

The Generalist;
Someone who knows less and less, about more and more, until he know nothing about everything.

The Specialist;
Someone who knows more and more about less and less, until he knows
everything about nothing.

In all fairness with such a broad range of cars and motorcycles being shown at The Statesman Rally here, it is impossible to find a knowledgable team of Judges unless they were drawn from the ranks of the major Restorers or knowledgeable Collectors through out India. Even then, with out proper Judges Score Sheets and Rules to follow, plus Impartial Judges, we have what we have, so just Come and Enjoy the EVENT!

P.S.
And then there is the Egotist;
"I use to think i was perfect, but I made a mistake once.
I thought I was Wrong!"

Will take lots of photos to post for those unable to attend.
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Old 3rd January 2012, 09:56   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john a milne View Post
An interesting "Definition" of two types of Judges.

The Generalist;
Someone who knows less and less, about more and more, until he know nothing about everything.

The Specialist;
Someone who knows more and more about less and less, until he knows
everything about nothing.

In all fairness with such a broad range of cars and motorcycles being shown at The Statesman Rally here, it is impossible to find a knowledgable team of Judges unless they were drawn from the ranks of the major Restorers or knowledgeable Collectors through out India. Even then, with out proper Judges Score Sheets and Rules to follow, plus Impartial Judges, we have what we have, so just Come and Enjoy the EVENT!

P.S.
And then there is the Egotist;
"I use to think i was perfect, but I made a mistake once.
I thought I was Wrong!"

Will take lots of photos to post for those unable to attend.

John, totally apt!

Bulldogji, I think you are a bit off here, sorry no offense meant, we are not referring to the prizes!!We are talking generally about the caliber of Judges in Kolkata!! With one exception, none of them own or have owned a Vintage or a Classic!! One of them them have a vintage which has been standing on bricks from prior to his conception! None of them have restored a car!! If we had a judge like Mr. Prithvi Ganapathy of Bangalore, we would know the judge would be knowledgeable and would know what he is talking about!!

Cheers
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Old 3rd January 2012, 13:34   #26
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

Quote:
Originally Posted by john a milne View Post
An interesting "Definition" of two types of Judges.


In all fairness with such a broad range of cars and motorcycles being shown at The Statesman Rally here, it is impossible to find a knowledgable team of Judges unless they were drawn from the ranks of the major Restorers or knowledgeable Collectors through out India. Even then, with out proper Judges Score Sheets and Rules to follow, plus Impartial Judges, we have what we have, so just Come and Enjoy the EVENT!
John, as Adkol has already said, what I wrote earlier was not with a view to getting a prize, it was for fairer & better judging which may lead to other cars being awarded prizes giving a boost to these owners.

Also, you are absolutely correct in saying that the judges cannot know everything about the 120 odd cars but again there is a way which could somewhat address this. 95% of the cars come nearly every year. All the judges need is a list of cars which participated the previous year and split up the no. of cars among them for research. They have ample time when they are free (almost a year) to just browse through the net and make notes.

Now from what I have seen, at an average, maybe 10-15 cars are first time entrants and/or cars which are attending after a long gap. The judges already have the details of these cars (from the owners) atleast 2 weeks before the judging day. Is not long enough to do fairly detailed research on these cars and specifically for that model year? I would think it is.

Now let me recount a personal experience which made it apparent to me that the judging was not always impartial; it certainly wasn't in my case.

The first time I took my 1958 Mercedes 180A for the rally in 2003 one of the judges (non army) inspecting the car was quite pleased with the standard of workmanship (done by my team) on the car. Then another judge (again non army) appeared, saw the car in depth and then asked me "who is the owner of the car?". I gave the owner's (dad's) name. The judge looked at me, grunted and without letting me say anything about the car walked off briskly. I couldn't quite understand the reaction. Later in the evening I told my dad about the incident. He asked me who the judge was. When he heard his name dad told me that the judge's reaction was a result of a spat that the 2 of them had had years back. So something that happened between the 2 of them years back (and I know that it was just an exchange of words) was still held as a grudge by the judge.

In 2005, I entered the same car, keeping in mind that dad's name was not to be mentioned.The same judge of 2003 came to inspect the carb and exhaust manifold side of the engine. He asked me if the carb and manifold set up is original. I showed him my car's original Owner's Manual where the carb used was clearly stated as being 'Solex 34 PICB' as well as an illustration of the manifold setup under the carb. I then showed him the marking on the car's carb-'Solex 34 PICB-Made in Western Germany' and also compared the car's manifold to the illustration. He hesitated a bit, cleared his throat and stated authoritatively " this carb is not for this car and the manifold has been modified ". I was stupefied. Did he remember who the car belonged to? Or was it just plain ignorance?

A lot of people have been disappointed in the past because of some instances similar to mine and others which were probably a result of poor research.

I agree about the 'fun' part but why should it be only fun? What's the point of judging then, may as well do away with that and a lot of people will be happier and actually have fun.

Regards
mbz180
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Old 3rd January 2012, 15:04   #27
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HI Adkol,your post was not at all offensive.Mine was generally talking about such events and not specific to Cal.I see that both MBZ 180 and you agree on my views re judgeing and really thats all I had in mind.To respond to John,I believe we can put together an all india panel of judges and select from amongst them by rotation .Of course the problem may be that those who are knowledgeable may not be palatable to the organisation holding the rally as they may not be high profile or well known.I have found ordinary mechanics at times with a depth of knowledge gained from years of experience and the internet which has amazed me.But can you see them being called to judge?Again no offense intended, just my views.
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Old 4th January 2012, 08:02   #28
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Bulldogji, your suggestion of an all India judge panel makes a lot of sense. Wish we had a all India association / club too, at least the vested interests would be nullified. Hopefully!!
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Old 6th January 2012, 00:42   #29
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I agree with comments of judging being a farce and favouritism towards certain people. I know of incidents which cannot be mentioned on this forum. In fact, I had once asked a judge to show the time sheet for the road section after the rally but was bluntly refused. I suggest we should insist on the score sheets to be displayed for all to see after the rally. This way one cean know where to improve. Anyway, till that happens, lets enjoy the cars and have fun on saturday and sunday.
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Old 7th January 2012, 17:28   #30
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Day 1 - Saturday Concours

Attended the Concours Judging today, got there about 10 am not to miss any early cars and found because of the medium rain last night and light rain this morning most of the cars didn't starting coming till noon. Fortunately no rain this afternoon. Had to leave about 2.30pm and missed a few late cars.

They had a full compliment of Judges, the Army did the Mechanical - 30/100pts, (lots of enthusiasm but a little short on knowledge at times) then Teams for Authenticity - 40/100pts & Fit & Finish - 30/40. These marks will be added to the Rally marks - 50pts, then totalled from which the Trophies will be awarded.

I saw a few new cars this year that I was aware of which I will try and separate out. I'm sure I have missed a few that hopefully other members can add.

Great meeting a few BHP Members.

Here are some overall shots.

OOOOPPPS! Didn't reduce the quality of my photos, so they are too big to upload!
Not sure if I can reduce them on my Mac. Can anyone help me out on this?

Last edited by john a milne : 7th January 2012 at 17:33.
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