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Old 9th January 2012, 15:56   #61
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

Continuiung with the topic of bling, would you prefer a car with high gloss 2K paint or would the cars be better with the non 2K paint available at the time the cars were actually built? Secondly, would one want to rechrome various parts like bumpers, grill, etc or would it be better off with the original chrome (assuming that it is presentable)? I would prefer the latter in both cases rather than over restoring the cars and loose authencity. But its sad that many people (including judges) prefer things which add bling to the cars and make them stand out!
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Old 9th January 2012, 17:21   #62
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

There are two schools of thought that are prominent with regards to auto restorations.

One school of thought is the purist version where the car being restored needs to be done to the standards that it was originally produced. The extreme version of this school will want the materials used in the restoaton to also be as close to the original as possible.

Then there is the school of thought that feels a car being restored needs to be brough to a stndard far superior to what it was when new. Here modern material and finish is acceptable provided it confirms to the cars original options.

Then there is the period correct restoration school where modern option are OK as long as the end product is period correct.

Obviously the first school of thought is what should be the norm but unfortunately the over restoration school is mor popular.

A car restored to its original state has no chance of winning any award at Pebble Beach unless it is made far superior than it originally was.

This is a sad fact and in places like India it has taken on new heights with added bling, metallic finishes, extra lights, horns and not to forget the bar full of badges.

Also unfortunately there are almost no seriously knowledgeable judges in India who can be relied upon to conduct proper judging.

For quality judging there have to be seperate judges for each type of car who know the cars inside out. Its hardly possiblhat a single person can judge with accuracy a vast colection of cars of differen makes, models and years.
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Old 9th January 2012, 18:10   #63
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

I was there on saturday,and would stand by the cars as the judges were swooping over them one by one.

There was this gentleman showing his car to the judges,and as they looked around,commenting on this and that and looking a bit displeased with things,the owner was trying to keep his cool and muttered under his breath in bengali something like

"Ki shob ghorar-matha bolche,eder che beshi toh ami jani"(What bull are these guys talking about?I know more about cars than him!)
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Old 9th January 2012, 18:13   #64
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

LOL....thats the point I was trying to make....jack of all trades but mater of none aptly sums up car judges in India.
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Old 9th January 2012, 22:51   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harit
Joining in the discussion about bling restorations. There are two basic different concepts for restoration, restore to original or restore to the "bling effect". For bling effect we add unnecessary chrome and apply noticeable colour schemes which are..... well noticed, but hurt the eye. I prefer the first. See the Beetle pictures below and decide for yourself,
one picture taken from this thread, the others from
Down On The Street: 1959 Volkswagen Beetle - World Car News - CarMK.NET and
1959 Used Volkswagen Beetle at Chequered Flag International Serving Marina Del Rey, CA, IID 2866634

The question is: Bling vs original, which would you prefer?

Cheers harit
The grey plain Jane one not this chrome bling with in correct lightsc
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Old 10th January 2012, 01:28   #66
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

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Originally Posted by the mole View Post
Sorry! My reaction was quite knee jerk being a owner of a P5 myself. No offense meant to the owner or the car. After all its a matter of taste. I would not paint my car in this scheme though if I were to go two tone. Cheers the mole
You are absolutely correct but I like the paintjob only because it is tastefully done and overall it looks better compared to what I saw last year.

Unfortunately my answer will differ in case of the purple Bug.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KPS View Post
Without meaning to offend anyone, I have noticed that restorations in Kolkata surely have a bling effect with bright colours and chrome. We had once discussed how a car got converted to a Deluxe with side mounted stepney's etc. Plain black means you are not likely to be noticed in the Kolkata scene.
Can you please point out which are the models?

Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
The question is: Bling vs original, which would you prefer?
Both, but in case of Bling it should be tastefully done like the P5 and not like the Bug (as per my taste though )
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Old 10th January 2012, 06:52   #67
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit V8 View Post
Can you please point out which are the models?
Sure Amit here are some links on the Chevy which is converted to Deluxe. This is a fine example of a "bling effect". The car looks wonderful but should this be eligible to win prizes in a event like Statesman, my answer is no.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vintag...ml#post1675060 (The Statesman Concourse - Jan. 9th 2010 - Kolkata)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vintag...ml#post1675183 (The Statesman Concourse - Jan. 9th 2010 - Kolkata)

Cheers

KPS
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Old 10th January 2012, 11:00   #68
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

We seem to be like dogs chasing our tails re the state of Judging in India.

It's the reality of our Vintage and Classic Car Concours events, most of which are open to such a broad range of cars that even in the U.S. or Europe I doubt that knowledgeable judges could be found.

For me the other more important issues are to find impartial Judges and to provide them with proper Judging Guidelines. Even if one standard set of Guidelines could be created would they cover the divers Events let alone be accepted by the numerous Organizations sponsoring and running them. The Delhi and Kolkata Statesman Rallies use different scoring guidelines.

So rather than beat our heads against the wall, lets just stand back and enjoy the great diversity of vehicles and the "chefs" that prepare them, each to their own taste.

On a personal note when I decided to restore my 62 Fiat 1100 "Deluxe", I had to decide if I should "bling" it a little more or not. The original owner, Pranati Das a Bengali movie star, must have imported the Deluxe trim kit from Italy and had it fitted up and somehow arranged to get the WBF 1 plates. After doing some research on the European Model, I decided to restore it to the European standard as best i could. The blue colour, while not offered in India, was in Italy. The interiors and some other details are "Blinged". Not sure how the Judges would regard this but i'm the Chef and it's just right for me.

I wasn't able to attend on Sunday and am hoping to see more photos, particularly 29 Buick model 49x that Sanjay Ghose did such a great job on.
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Old 10th January 2012, 11:19   #69
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

Quote:
Originally Posted by siddd View Post
Continuiung with the topic of bling, would you prefer a car with high gloss 2K paint or would the cars be better with the non 2K paint available at the time the cars were actually built? Secondly, would one want to rechrome various parts like bumpers, grill, etc or would it be better off with the original chrome (assuming that it is presentable)? .............
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif View Post
There are two schools of thought ....
A car restored to its original state has no chance of winning any award at Pebble Beach unless it is made far superior than it originally was.

This is a sad fact and in places like India it has taken on new heights with added bling, metallic finishes, extra lights, horns and not to forget the bar full of badges.......

For quality judging there have to be seperate judges for each type of car who know the cars inside out. Its hardly possiblhat a single person can judge with accuracy a vast colection of cars of differen makes, models and years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amit V8 View Post
You are absolutely correct but I like the paintjob only because it is tastefully done and overall it looks better compared to what I saw last year. Unfortunately my answer will differ in case of the purple Bug..........
Quote:
Originally Posted by KPS View Post
Sure Amit here are some links on the Chevy which is converted to Deluxe. This is a fine example of a "bling effect". The car looks wonderful but should this be eligible to win prizes in a event like Statesman, my answer is no.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vintag...ml#post1675060 (The Statesman Concourse - Jan. 9th 2010 - Kolkata)

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vintag...ml#post1675183 (The Statesman Concourse - Jan. 9th 2010 - Kolkata)

Cheers KPS
If you guys don't mind, we are mixing up issues here. I'll try to explain my point of view.
A car if it has lots of original substance can be kept as is, such cars are often referred to as "oily rags", they have faded paint etc. Here you can give a "sympathetic" restoration, just do the essentials, maybe a touch-up, new tyres(and NOT always white-walls). And finally, if a car is to be fully restored, you can either go the original way, use Duco paints, keep the chrome to the original level, or you go all-out and "upgrade" your car to make it something it was not, it becomes eye candy not appreciated by the purists.
One should know what kind of an event one is entering, the type of restorations appreciated, and never expect anything so no disappointments. As Wasif says, an original car cannot win at Pebble Beach, they will not accept a pink VW but they are definitely quite accurate. And apparently they have also realised some flaws in their ways and have introduced a preservation class.

About paint, I would prefer 2K against Duco for 2 reasons, they last longer and really look nice. You get sober colours and combinations even in 2K. In my eyes, the problem with the Rover is the colour combo selection. I would have kept an original combo in 2K. Have you seen that purple Cord L29? The paint job is excellent, the colour combo is weird, light purple. When auctioned off they must have lost money because of that. About chrome, yes do rechrome previously chromed parts, but don't start chroming running boards, bonnets, fittings which were originally painted.
Then we can always add period accesories like that air cooler on a certain white bug, it is correct and period, but the Chevy given as an example by KPS exactly proves the point what is not to be done. The added accessories and embellishments may be more suitable for a Cadillac, Duesenberg, maybe just a Buick, but on a Chevy? Very incorrect.

About judges and judging, the organisers are also involved. Today clubs and very often also judging are agenda based, and the vintage cars and the enthusiasts are not the prime focus. The clubs are run arbitrarily and at the pleasure of members who have to be kept "pleasured". And so you have these problems. We do have very good and knowledgeable judges here, and don't forget that it is honorary work. Many events have single judges, so no discussions are possible and judgement is someones a sole descision. If there were to be more judges, they can consult among themselves and perhaps be more accurate by virtue of collective descisions.
The Cartier event had a preservation class, but a mockery was made of that with blatant manipulations due to the main disease afflicting our car movement in India, personal agenda and favouritism. Merit takes a back seat.

BTW, has anyone noticed how unimportant these prizes have become? The event was held on Sunday, and till today, Tuesday we still do not know who got which prize. That about sums it up.

The drives initiated by Kasli in Mumbai have a far better value in terms of pleasure and company one mixes with than those staged events.

Cheers harit

Last edited by harit : 10th January 2012 at 11:26.
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Old 10th January 2012, 11:41   #70
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

Hello and wishing all BHPians a very Happy New Year !!

With due respect to all the positive and negetive comments, I thank you all from the bottom of my heart.

I am of the mindset wherein justifications are neither needed, nor given. In short would prefer being out of controversies.

I would just like to state a few facts which are as follows:

I restore my cars with respect to what ' my eye ' would want them to be. Tastes and preferences differ, and I am happy catering to my own. I am open to advice from others, but would execute according to my free will. Whether it be 'bling' or not, I enjoy my cars and love the attention which I get. The colour tone of the P5 has been inspired by the 'Silver Spur', which had similar lines, for it to carry it off. The only 2 things 'blingy' about the Bug are the chrome tail lights and the number plate light. The two tone paint was very much a feature with the bugs in its era. All the lamps, side scuffs, hub caps have been fabricated by hand out of sheet metal. As far as the chevy, yes, we have added preiod accesories, which are in every way suiting the car. Talking about the MGA, Buick Super and the Renault, there is nothing 'blingy' attached, as I did'nt feel the need to. So comments should also flow in that direction, rather than ...
Anyway , I would like to say that I am of the 'Pebble Beach' school of thought, and am content with my work.

I have learned Vintage and Classic car restoration under my Father, Late Mr.Shashi Kanoria, a pioneer in this field ever since the 1960's, and am very proud to carry on this legacy. Restoration at my end is carried out only for myself, and a few cars of my meternal uncle, due to family obligations. I do not restore professionally, and have refused a number of restorations from all over India, since this is my passion, not my bread and butter. Its important to know, that I have restored 'NINE' cars in two years, ground up, from start to finish, which im sure is a record in India. As for the quality of my restoration, one car even check the remotest corner of the engine bay, leave alone the visible aesthetics, for fit and finish. My cars run like a dream and look heavenly (to my eyes), and im proud and blesses to be a part of this freternity.

I am open to and sort of advice, critisism, etc. as I am very much junior to you all, being a 30 year old... All your comments would be positively solicited.....

CHEERZ TO U ALL !!!!
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Old 10th January 2012, 13:34   #71
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

Well in my opinion the cars should be done up according to what the owner wants it to be. If he wants the car to look nice and bling and think i there is anything wrong with it at all. Or let's put it this way he should not expect to win a prize in an event. It should be very clear to see if one is participating in a rally to win prizes or to have fun and enjoy the event.

The judging definitely needs to improve and we need to make an effort towards it rather than sitting and just commenting on Team-BHP. Does any one of us can say that he know everything about all the cars that are entered in a particular event? Well if it is something like the Cartier then the judges should know everything about them since those cars have been invited to the event.

With regards to the paint job and colour scheme it would be again the owners choice of how he wants the car to look. At the end of the why are we spending money, time and effort i trying to keep these machines running ? Most of us want them to look in great condition and that's the reason people spend money. Today if we want to buy any modern car we can go to the dealer and tell him in what colour we want the car to be. In the earlier times, please correct me if i am wrong the Model T ford was the only car that came in black and Ford didn't offer any options of any other colours. If one wished to he could order a car in his own preferred colour. So similarly if the ownership changes down the line and I buy a car and paint it in a colour which i like i don't understand why a third person should have a problem in it. I would ofcourse not expect to win a prize in a concourse event but then i'd participate in it for the fun of it. And yes if my car wins a prize which it shouldn't have then well even i would question the judging of the event. Like i would prefer a two tone paint job on a Rover P5 and not have it a plain black. I would like the car to look a little bling. On the other hand if i hand if i had a beetle i would personally go with a single shade. Again that is my choice. Some may like it and some may think its crap. But how does it matter so long as i am happy with what i have. I have the satisfaction at the end of the day that's all that matters.

About period accessories and chrome, well i do agree that putting too badges on the badge bar makes the car look very dressy. But then there should be a limit to how many badges should be their on a car. Putting one AA club badge and max a couple of other ones is okay. Having something like 5-6 badges is a killer. Anyway that is again how the owner wishes to have it.

About adding period or optional accessories, well some of us would think that if it was an option on my car and its not there i add that/those particular things and the car looks better. And some of us would think that since this was not apart of my car why would i add it even it was an additional option. My car from the factory didn't come with that option at all. So again it depends on how the owner wants it. I don't see any harm in any of the two ways. Like If we refer to KPS's restoration his Plymouth PB, in the initial pics we can see that the car didn't have a trunk/box on the luggage rack. But then as mentioned he had got a period trunk/box which he added. Well maybe his car did come with it and it got lost/stolen sometime during the course of its life or it didn't and KPS wished to add it. At the end of the day it was his decision and indeed it does look good.

Basically one think we need to understand here is, do we want to enter a car into a rally for the purpose of making it win a prize or do we want to do it for the fun of it? If it was all about winning prizes then cars like Austin's and Morris Minors and Morris Eight's would be entered. There are people who do participate in a rally to just enjoy it and why don't we all try and do the same? If its just about winning a prize then restore your car to that level of originality that it cannot be refused a prize.

Again No offense meant to anyone since people here on Team-BHP get offended very easily and also i find that people tend to misinterpret other peoples intensions.

Regards

Indrojit

Last edited by IndrojitSircar : 10th January 2012 at 13:45.
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Old 10th January 2012, 16:33   #72
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

why don't you Calcutta folk prepare an all India list of names here, of people who you would like to see as judges. maybe some good comes of it?
i agree to a large extent about the lack of judging standards at many events. for instance, i would rate the green Morris eight 'E' and the lovely black long cowl Austin seven here more than the white SS, or the Riley with the humber mascot and strange headlamps but that's just me... :-)

PS. a bit of trivia for aspiring judges when they get to judge early 30s studebakers... just about any period colour is correct for these cars, because due to the depression studebaker used to also supply cars in primer to their dealers for the customer to choose a colour of his choice, anything to make a sale you see...

Last edited by awini : 10th January 2012 at 16:50.
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Old 10th January 2012, 16:49   #73
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

Lets see some more photos of the Rally!
PLEASE
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Old 10th January 2012, 17:23   #74
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

An ownre of a car has the absolute right to do as he pleases with the car.

All I and other serous car lovers feel is that when one has knowingly deviated from a pure restoraton then one should at the vey least have the courtsey to enter their cars in events as a non competitive entry.

By entering a blinged up car as a comptitive entry one makes a farce of the whole affair to the detrement of those who have actually taken pain to do a restoration as close to original standards as possible.

In the case o events in Kolkata they actually need to have a new class called "The Bling" with sub classes for "most badges", " most accessories", "best metallic and two tone paint jobs"

Over a few years there wiill be more entries in The Bling class than in any of the other classes ....which will make the job of Judging the cars even more easier..LOL.

I am waiting to see which cars get what kind of recognition this time !
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Old 10th January 2012, 17:41   #75
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Default Re: The 2012 Kolkata Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rally

Thanks to all who posted the pictures, the owners for taking such good care of the cars, the restorers for the wonderful job done. Unfortunately, with so much effort having gone in, emotions will run high. But really, everyone is right in their own way.
In our hearts and mind every last one deserves a prize for the sincere effort.
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