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Old 7th July 2012, 18:28   #31
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

The lack of transparency, etc is a story that has remained the same for decades. Those of you who have been around will know this.

If the cars I am involved with are invited, it is more than likely that I will thank the organisers warmly but politely refuse without any malice. Prizes at events like these (from what I have read) are next to meaningless for me. Pride may be one of my many sins, I certainly won't be chasing the organisers begging them to consider my humble offerings if the end result is prejudged.

There is a fair bit of complaining whenever this event is discussed. If there is so much discontent, why not start your own body and organise a transparent show? Frankly, I belong to the school of thinking that prescribes "put up or shut up". There is little point in complaining if you can't or won't do anything.

The people who give a "concours" (a term that in my opinion has next to zero creditibility given the condition of the cars and level of judging) like this their time, cars and attention are validating the very things that they spend their time complaining about.

If this appears harsh, I will temper this by saying that I agree with a lot of the thoughts aired, but like I said: do something about it or ignore it. It would appear less of a concours and more of showcase for ego and power.

Go as a spectator, enjoy the majority of the cars and this movement for what they are - a work in progress.

I don't expect any "thanks" for this, but its what I think.
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Old 7th July 2012, 20:45   #32
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

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Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
There is a fair bit of complaining whenever this event is discussed. If there is so much discontent, why not start your own body and organise a transparent show? Frankly, I belong to the school of thinking that prescribes "put up or shut up". There is little point in complaining if you can't or won't do anything.

Go as a spectator, enjoy the majority of the cars and this movement for what they are - a work in progress.
I do agree to the points you make - I believe that if one does not like the way things are run to such an extent that any event is badmouthed at every opportune moment, why take part, or write in an application? I don't even think about the prizes when I visit any event - its simply out of my skill set to begin with. I can say very honestly that at all the events I attend locally, mostly as a spectator, rarely as a participant, be it the VCCCI, the Cartier, the MASA or the Sportzcraft events (even the informal Fiat Club drives, the Beetle drives, the Classic drives) - I have a complete blast. Rarely does one get to see so many cars together, the atmosphere is buzzing, excitement in the air. Meeting old friends and new, talking cars and bikes. Isn't that what its all about, rather than competition?

Come on guys, please, lets focus more on the cars, give newer readers an enjoyable and educational experience, rather than the way things are going.

Those who agree with me, a vote of thanks please!
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Old 9th July 2012, 14:28   #33
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

Faster and Karl make valid points. However Karl, I do not agree with your statement that any event is badmouthed at every opportune movement. If blatant lies are fed to the unsuspecting public by way of press releases, should one keep quiet? The recent story of the Rolls being gifted by HM Queen Elizabeth in 1946/47? When India attained Independence the UK had a KING. HM Elizabeth ascended the throne on the demise of her father in 1952. Yet there is insistence on QUEEN ELIZABETH having gifted this car in 1946/47.When one points this out you are told there is documentary evidence. When one asks to see this EVIDENCE, nothing is shown. Is this according to you Badmouthing? I dont think so.Faster you are correct. If there is inertia, its best to button ones lips. Karl , I agree with you when you state that we should just enjoy meeting people and seeing lovely cars at events. BUT, Cartier not being open to the general public that is not possible. ANd they do showcase some of Indias finest cars. Speaking for myself, I am not involved with any club or politics. I do what I enjoy. I drive my cars daily and really am not bothered about the rest.
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Old 9th July 2012, 17:05   #34
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

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BUT, Cartier not being open to the general public that is not possible.
I agree with Bulldogji on this count 100%. Events like the Cartier event are not un-important for the future development of the Vintage and classic car scene in India. However they must make note that events such as these should be reasonably accessible to enthusiasts who care enough about classic and vintage cars. I for one do not mind paying a reasonable fee to observe and enjoy the cars. However if exclusivity is so important that they don't care to be inclusive why waste our time with bickering, if the organizers haven't made note of our concerns till date and don't care to make positive changes, such events are bound to die natural deaths.

Finally do remember the Derby races are still alive(economically) because of the common man who bets and not the hoi poloi who appear on page 3 the day after and don't spend a dime on the actual races.
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Old 9th July 2012, 20:07   #35
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

The Cartier event is primarily to help Cartier market itself in India. Their primary objective is to reach their target audience. They choose vintage cars just like many other companies choose golf or sailing or any other sport only because people who indulge in the sport tend also to be customers of their products. Sometimes companies indulge in these exercises to build brand awareness through association, namely exclusivity.

Let's not kid ourselves that the Cartier show is by enthusiasts and for enthusiasts. It's pure business. If they chose Manvendra Singh to help organise the event it's because in one man they get someone who can network with practically all vintage car owners across India and organise things. I am surprised if any of you believe Cartier cares about whether the event is a true enthusiast competition and the rules of the game are fair. Let's face it, it's only about style and pomp and show and getting a big bang for their buck. If they paid for the Nizam's Rolls restoration its not because they care about the car but because it made great publicity material to showcase. Now the Napiers is the same story.

Behind the whole show is the serious business of capitalising on an event to get business mileage. So I am sure all this talk about fairness in judging and transparency in how the show is managed will fall on deaf ears as far as the organisers go. Its only when Manvendra Singh fails to come up with wow cars will the organisers sit up and ask what's happening.

So if you have a car which has been restored and is in a wow condition or if it's something rare that even in a so so condition it drops your jaw then expect to get invited.

Where does that leave enthusiasts who neither have a wow car to show or a rare example which even in a non running state is worth a exhibit? Well just your personal rapport with the organisers will get you a invite as a spectator. The main list of invitees will be managed by Cartier and I am sure they are very clear who constitute a worthy invite !

I feel it's a fun event and definitely highly desirable on any enthusiast's must visit calendar. I enjoy visiting the show because to me it's the only way I get to see some of these beauties up close. I won't get past the gates of most of the owner's homes let alone get to see their precious beauties as I don't know them personally. So I appreciate the Cartier show only because it gives me a chance to view some amazing cars, and all in one place.
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Old 9th July 2012, 20:35   #36
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

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The Cartier event is primarily to help Cartier market itself in India. T
====
So I appreciate the Cartier show only because it gives me a chance to view some amazing cars, and all in one place.
Well said bhai, let's all accept this reality & move on.
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Old 10th July 2012, 11:44   #37
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

DKG sums it up nicely. Sadly though, even if it is on an enthusiasts MUST VISIT calender he cannot enter unless cartier invites him. But its their show and they are spending enormous amounts of money so we must accept their right to invite people of their choice. Manvendra probably knows most of the cars here and I must say that in the two shows held, he has , at least with me , been most cordial and helpful. As you correctly put it, its not really about cars. It is more about pomp and show. If you recall even the press coverage in the two shows, cars were sidelined and celebs were given prominence. A thought occurs to me , and I would welcome responses. Why cant we think of doing something similar? I am confident sponsors will come forward. Just a show. No judges and No prizes. Maybe Manvendra can be persuaded to help? The Anand group, they being into automotive components, I feel can be persuaded to get the ball rolling, and guys like Karl, I am certain would help with the enormous amount of leg work required.
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Old 10th July 2012, 12:19   #38
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

It would be nice to go hang around the venue entrance to check out the cars going in and out before and after the show for those who are denied entrance.

These shows are indeed a marketing and PR excersize for the sponsors but sadly in India they dont seem to care for judging standards whereas in the west other such events like the Louis Vuitton Concours are very professionally run events with quality judging standards.

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Old 10th July 2012, 16:16   #39
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

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It would be nice to go hang around the venue entrance to check out the cars going in and out before and after the show for those who are denied entrance.
I think the age of the Maharaja's is long over, we now have better things to do than catch a glimpse of Royalty entering and exiting hallowed gates
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Old 10th July 2012, 17:16   #40
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I think the age of the Maharaja's is long over, we now have better things to do than catch a glimpse of Royalty entering and exiting hallowed gates
LOL...I was not talking about gaping at the ex royalty and celebs at the gates but at the cars bro !

Who cares who is coming or going but what cars are coming and going !!!
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Old 12th July 2012, 13:12   #41
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

An unrestored Caddilac, a 1938 Buick Roadmaster, another Buick and a repeat entry from the Delhi show, I am told, are some of the confirmed entries for the next Cartier bash in Bombay. Maybe the news of the repeat entry is not true as the Cartier team have categorically stated that those cars that were shown in the previous two shows are not eligible. But perhaps exceptions will be made for show stoppers.

Last edited by karlosdeville : 12th July 2012 at 13:17. Reason: Punctuation
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Old 12th July 2012, 13:57   #42
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

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An unrestored Caddilac, a 1938 Buick Roadmaster, another Buick and a repeat entry from the Delhi show, I am told, are some of the confirmed entries for the next Cartier bash in Bombay. Maybe the news of the repeat entry is not true as the Cartier team have categorically stated that those cars that were shown in the previous two shows are not eligible. But perhaps exceptions will be made for show stoppers.
Any details or pictures of this unrestored cadillac ? Also of the roadmaster please !
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Old 16th July 2012, 17:36   #43
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Mr Jatti , can you please post the pictures requested? The Caddilac is a beauty. I had seen the Buick when it was with a restorer. The state it was in when bought, only the wildest imagination could have you believe that the truck load of scrap metal was in fact, once upon a time, a Buick Roadmaster. This Buick certainly deserves a resurrection award.
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Old 16th July 2012, 18:06   #44
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I had seen the Buick when it was with a restorer. The state it was in when bought, only the wildest imagination could have you believe that the truck load of scrap metal was in fact, once upon a time, a Buick Roadmaster. This Buick certainly deserves a resurrection award.
I think I know which car you speak of - I had seen a car of similar description in 2010 when I visited Delhi, it is truly incredible if that car has been finished well. I suppose practically the entire sheetmetal would be new - no mean feat.
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Old 16th July 2012, 19:46   #45
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Originally Posted by Bulldogji
Mr Jatti , can you please post the pictures requested? The Caddilac is a beauty. I had seen the Buick when it was with a restorer. The state it was in when bought, only the wildest imagination could have you believe that the truck load of scrap metal was in fact, once upon a time, a Buick Roadmaster. This Buick certainly deserves a resurrection award.
I agree on the Buick which has turned out to be great and the Cadillac I remain speechless on the positive side . It's Ahhh fab

Last edited by kasli : 16th July 2012 at 19:47.
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