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Old 16th July 2012, 21:23   #46
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

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Originally Posted by wasif View Post
Any details or pictures of this unrestored cadillac ?
I guess it should be this Cadillac

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The car is a 1934 Cadillac, Model 355-D, Series 20, Style 34663, 7 Passenger Imperial Sedan, 8 Cylinder which Mr.Titus had purchased from Raipur in 2008. She has'nt run in 40 years - appears quite original, complete and clean and awaiting restoration very soon
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vintag...ml#post2066454 (Cadillacs in India)

Picture Courtesy Post 103 of Kasli in Caddy Thread

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Old 17th July 2012, 11:12   #47
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

Thanks, KPS. That is the Cartier 2013 entry . Hope to see the Buick also, resurrected by Mr Sandeep Kataria.
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Old 18th August 2012, 18:59   #48
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

Cartier is keen to have a really grand show in Mumbai in February 2013, and a grand show it will be.

They have even managed to get about 5 cars from the Pranlal Bhogilal collection to be displayed, the cars will not be competing but will be present for viewing and the display could be considered as a sort of homage to Pranlal. Nice gesture from all the parties concerned. He did not take part in Cartier 2008 event in Mumbai.

A few cars are being invited for the second time, these cars are such beauties that it is worthy for this exception being made. They are being re-restored to a higher level than before.

Some cars have already selected, but those who don't have a written confirmation should apply before 31st August for being considered. I am putting this up as I have been hearing from some people that though they were told to get their cars ready for the event, they were subsequently told that they should again send their entry. All are not aware of this because some to whom I spoke have not yet applied to Cartier and this has the potential to cause embarrasment to some in future.

As one can imagine, Cartier is doing much to add to the quality of the show, they even tweaked the selection process which I would think as an improvement.

Two months ago I would have predicted where many prizes will go, now I will not because I am confident that the event of this level will also have high quality judging. As said by others before, Cartier seeks its own gains, so there mayl be some Bollywood type of prizes awarded. For the serious categories I am sure that the judging will be professional.

But some of the previous comments do deserve a debate. First of all I added a thanks to Faster's and Karl's post, I thought that more should have been given to these posts.

There were two points being criticzsed by me, the quality of concourse judging, the cars, and the politics in their selection. As a participant, what is wanted is fairness to all for selection and awards. As a spectator it is easy to say that you are just enjoying the cars, to a participant it means much more . And then one says that posting on this forum we should stick to the cars, and ignore all extra curricular happenings. That is foolish, would one not have liked Pranlal's cars to be present in Cartier 2008? Would that not have added value to enthusiasts? But I am glad that things are changing. The same goes for concourse prizes. Are the standards of restored cars not being lifted? Now when the 2 re-restored cars are shown, will we not compare and see a level of improvement? Both would not happen if we just sat back and let things simply go on and "just enjoy the cars".

It is easy to say go form your own club, but it is also easy to see how many are already keeping away from the movement and events because of the games being played. And it is on this forum that I have commented on certain aspects, have been rebuked and rebutted occasionally, but I feel that it is still helping our movement. We will see better quality events, more events happening, and even clubs/events reacting to our comments and making changes. Badmouthing is not being done, we do criticize with the intention not to run down an event, but to correct the irresponsible ways of some personalities. Remember, almost everything I have said about some events/happenings have never been rebutted, some posts have been deleted, but no intellectual rebuttal. And yet changed have happened, though not always to the desired intentions.

About DKG's comments, yes it is a Cartier show, they are in the business of high end products, they chose cars over golf, and therefore they should have the best event to get best coverage make the effort worth it. In the case of golf, you will expect Tiger, Randhawa, the best from the world and the best in India. If you were to hold the event at Wilingdon club, you would not expect the best golfer of Willingdon to be included, unless he is very very good. That is my point, for the Delhi event rubbish cars were displayed along with the best, upsetting some owners who are included in that target audience (Cartier Customers). I fully agree that the show is not by and for enthusiasts, it is to have a noteworthy event of high class and have the "Cartier" brand associated with the best event in India. I would say that Cartier are very generous in having the Indian classics section, for which unfortunately there is not much on offer in terms of high-end stock. Maybe Cartier can consider to give more access to viewing enthusiasts, and then maybe not. They had hosted the participants magnificently during the 2008 event, there are costs involved for that.

I would also like to add that opposed to my position in the very first post that I will not be a part of this event, I did put an application because the selection process has changed. I am ever more encouraged by this change. Even if my car is not selected, there will be no bitching from my side, but comparisons can be discussed.

I am not a blind critic of Cartier events, some aspects of the management of the last event were commented on. I am sure that this event will match up to or exceed the 2008 event.

And, all those who have not yet applied, please do so immediately.

Cheers harit

Last edited by harit : 18th August 2012 at 19:11.
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Old 18th August 2012, 19:51   #49
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

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Originally Posted by harit View Post
Quote:
Cartier is keen to have a really grand show in Mumbai in February 2013, and a grand show it will be.
Look forward to the event and to see the pictures

Quote:
They have even managed to get about 5 cars from the Pranlal Bhogilal collection to be displayed, the cars will not be competing but will be present for viewing and the display could be considered as a sort of homage to Pranlal. Nice gesture from all the parties concerned. He did not take part in Cartier 2008 event in Mumbai.
This is a really great gesture. Can you tells about the 5 cars which are expected?

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Are the standards of restored cars not being lifted? Now when the 2 re-restored cars are shown, will we not compare and see a level of improvement?
Yes we are seeing a lot of improvement in the restoration levels. Owners are willing to spend a lot more money on restoration. Cartier events have definitely caused owners to pay attention to detail in their restorations. Owners feel very happy when their efforts get rewarded. I am sure Amal still feels happy on the recognition he got in the last event for the Caddy restoration.


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Remember, almost everything I have said about some events/happenings have never been rebutted, some posts have been deleted, but no intellectual rebuttal. And yet changed have happened, though not always to the desired intentions.
Very true

Cheers harit
Thanks Harit for this interesting post. You made some very important points and very few are willing to bell the cat. Any holistic improvement in the vintage movement in India would do a lot of good towards preservation of the cars and the joy associated with owning cars. Hopefully the cars will eventually triumph over politics plaguing the movement in India.

Cheers

KPS

Last edited by KPS : 18th August 2012 at 19:52.
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Old 19th August 2012, 10:10   #50
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

An event like cartier is mainly to promote themselves and develop a recall . They can do it as their discretion and even on the choice of cars is simply their lookout with their team. They could have done it with fiats all you know. Between some now in the Vintage and Classic car fraternity its become an Ego and prestige for their car appearing or being called for. Like a Race ! Its better to sit back and enjoy the event as a whole and meet old friends and ogle at some wonderful machines.

There are lots of valid points here and should be noted by the organizers.
Cheers

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Cartier is keen to have a really grand show in Mumbai in February 2013, and a grand show it will be.
...
...
And, all those who have not yet applied, please do so immediately.
Cheers harit
Note from the Team-BHP Support Team: Please avoid quoting an entire large post. It inconveniences our small screen & mobile readers.


Last edited by moralfibre : 21st August 2012 at 11:34. Reason: Deleting quoted post.
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Old 20th August 2012, 12:07   #51
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

Kasli, you sum it up nicely. HArit, do keep us posted on the progress of your application. Can you share with us which car you have offered? Pictures also if possible? Nice to see you encouraging all those who have not applied to do so. Using your considerable influence with the people concerned may I in advance request you to get me a visitor pass please? Would be nice to see all the beautiful cars in a lovely setting.
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Old 20th August 2012, 15:45   #52
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

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But some of the previous comments do deserve a debate. First of all I added a thanks to Faster's and Karl's post, I thought that more should have been given to these posts.
Thank you. Appreciated.

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There were two points being criticzsed by me, the quality of concourse judging, the cars, and the politics in their selection.
That's three points!

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Originally Posted by harit View Post
It is easy to say go form your own club, but it is also easy to see how many are already keeping away from the movement and events because of the games being played.
It's easy to see "wrong" when it is commited, it is also easy to complain about it, and just as easy to criticize it.

What is not quite so easy, is to do something about it (just to be clear, I'm not talking about grand gestures, every contribution counts). If you believe that the broadcast of views on this forum is contributing to a positive change, good for you, keep it up.

In my view however, the rot set in in the 1970s. The scene has changed little from then has it not? If anything is it not more entrenched? The current regime is not going to change, it's been the same for 40 years.

Quite clearly, the only solution to the widely voiced concerns of the current movement lie in a new, "better" movement. That is a tall order. I was involved with people who did this once, but my place in life would not allow me the chance to do that again.

I do recognise that is it easy to say "just sort it out and stop complaining" btw. It's a personal things at some level. I'm very much "put up or shut up" and I do think it's slightly tragic that some people (this is not directed at anyone in particular), moan and complain but then as soon as the situation turns to suit them they stop complaining though the general status quo remains exactly the same.

The Cartier show is to some extent, mutton dressed up as lamb but I'd enjoy it for what it is. If you want your cars involved, you'll have to bend to the procedures (or lack of) that the show requires. Their game, their rules.

Last edited by Faster789 : 20th August 2012 at 15:48.
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Old 20th August 2012, 17:30   #53
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

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..............
That's three points!

It's easy to see "wrong" when it is commited, it is also easy to complain about it, and just as easy to criticize it.

...........If you believe that the broadcast of views on this forum is contributing to a positive change, good for you, keep it up.

In my view however, the rot set in in the 1970s. The scene has changed little from then has it not? If anything is it not more entrenched? The current regime is not going to change, it's been the same for 40 years.

Quite clearly, the only solution to the widely voiced concerns of the current movement lie in a new, "better" movement. That is a tall order. I was involved with people who did this once, but my place in life would not allow me the chance to do that again.

.....as soon as the situation turns to suit them they stop complaining though the general status quo remains exactly the same.

The Cartier show is to some extent, mutton dressed up as lamb but I'd enjoy it for what it is. If you want your cars involved, you'll have to bend to the procedures (or lack of) that the show requires. Their game, their rules.
Lovely about 3 points, proof that the post was fully read

I try to broadcast valid points and hope readers will understand whats going on. Don't the Newspapers and TV news channels do something similar? And those in charge keep adding to their attrocities that I keep getting fodder to broadcast. But I also take note of +ve changes, which I also broadcast.

As you rightly say, there was a change of guard in the 1970's. I have spoken to people who were involved, why there was a change, who was involved, and what was the result. In fact I was there in a meeting at the Merchants club. There is only one conclusion. Things have become worse, it is now a one man show and being handled as an inherited property.

Faster has politely mentioned about those who changed their stance as soon as a situation changed to suit them. Here a nail was hit on the head, politics is at the fore and fairweather friends are abound. This succeeds mainly because competing egos. So, today you can be a member of the club, tomorrow not, then you become an associate member, honourary memberships are given and taken, I can imagine that huge administration will be required to maintain all these registers. Don't forget the founder member category. And there could be a permanently banned members list too.

I see hope and continue my activities because changes do happen. Some good, like the Cartier selection process, VCCCI events being held in the beginning of the year, some not so good like changing the VCCCI webside, and again.

But here we discuss the Cartier event about which I now have a good feeling. The criticism I had concerned the selection process which ultimately ruined the event, thankfully someone noticed and it has been modified

Bulldogji, Cartier did invite past participants for their events, I see no reason for them not to do so for this event.

Cheers harit
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Old 21st August 2012, 11:16   #54
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Red face re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

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Bulldogji, Cartier did invite past participants for their events, I see no reason for them not to do so for this event.

Cheers harit
Harit, perhaps you are mistaken. I have recieved a reply from Cartier categorically stating that cars which had participated in the earlier Cartier shows will not be accepted for 2013. BUT, maybe exceptions will be made of their choosing. After all , it is their show

Last edited by moralfibre : 21st August 2012 at 11:24. Reason: Fixing missed quote.
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Old 21st August 2012, 11:42   #55
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

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....Cartier categorically stating that cars which had participated in the earlier Cartier shows will not be accepted for 2013. BUT, maybe exceptions will be made of their choosing.......
Hi, we have misunderstood each other. Cartier gives 2 different type of invites, to participate and to come and oogle. I was refering to the latter.

BTW, when you [quote], keep this word at both ends. You edited the word at the beginning, therefore it does not come correct.

Cheers harit
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Old 21st August 2012, 12:12   #56
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

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Hi, we have misunderstood each other. Cartier gives 2 different type of invites, to participate and to come and oogle. I was refering to the latter.

Sorry, I misunderstood. Naturally, to me the invite meant an invite for the car. Yes, at the delhi show, many whose cars had participated in the Bombay show were given invitations for the public day. If that is the case in 2013, then it will be great to catch up with the fraternity from across the country. Pranlals cars, maybe five, will be displayed. They have already begun getting spruced up. This makes me wonder why some car owners have been told that they are IN, whilst others are asked to apply and take their chances. The entire process, shrouded in secrecy, remains a mystery. Those who have gone through the application process, can you please regularly keep us up dated ??
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Old 27th August 2012, 11:59   #57
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

Last week for applying. Apart from Harit, I do not know of any one else on this forum who has applied. Would appreciate if those who have applied share with us their car details and experiences on the application process. Karl, I believe you were planning to apply? What happened? which car? Magneto deserved and got a mention at the first Cartier show in bombay. I wonder if he has thought of applying?? I believe Viveck Goenka has been invited. His nephew being on the forum, maybe he can tell us which car/ cars?? Tweety bird tells me its his fabulous Studebaker
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Old 27th August 2012, 19:07   #58
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

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Karl, I believe you were planning to apply? What happened? which car?
I had put in an application for my Landmaster for the Indian heritage class, which hopefully should be ready in time. I did receive an acknowledgement for the entry, though no confirmation naturally.
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Old 28th August 2012, 14:26   #59
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

That is great news Karl. I hope your car is selected. Do keep us posted. Your collection of Indian beauties I believe is growing in leaps and bounds. Hope to see your cars sometime?? All the best for Cartier.
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Old 28th August 2012, 14:51   #60
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Default re: Third Cartier Concours d'Elegance: Feb 2013 in Mumbai (PICS on Page 19)

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That is great news Karl. I hope your car is selected. Do keep us posted. Your collection of Indian beauties I believe is growing in leaps and bounds. Hope to see your cars sometime?? All the best for Cartier.
any more conversations with your Tweety Birds ???? What other cars are lining up / applying or being invited ?

What car(s) are you and harit planning to present ?
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