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Old 18th May 2012, 11:32   #16
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

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Originally Posted by the mole View Post

Now as far as the price goes, we forget that there is world beyond team bhp, its classifieds and experts. 13.3 lakhs is probably the price of a civic. Saffron art of which iam a member has bidders buying paintings in the several crores, 13 odd lakhs is nothing. And again i agree with gto that if i had the money i would not get out of my armchair to save a lakh or two. These guys are looking at the larger picture and time is money for them. Again this is my humble opinion.
I agree with the point about the pricing. I've recently been getting a fair idea of the realistic prices that running/working classics are changing hands at privately, and 13.5 lakhs or thereabouts is not really steep for this car. Yes, from the pics, the engine bay definitely needs detailing and maybe the new owner would be willing to spend another lakh or so in sprucing up the car further.

Related to this point is, that as far as I know, interested buyers in a car auction thoroughly inspect a car of their choice before bidding so the bidders did see something in it to end up with that price.

Assuming I had the money, would I buy it at that price? A definite "no", but that's because I don't see much in the car itself this doesn't have anything to do with the condition. This buyer did see something either in the car or as Amol has said at the larger picture of classics commanding increasingly higher prices over time.

A friend offered 35 lakhs for a 4 cyl Mercedes Ponton in outstanding condition and was refused Owning one, I don't see anything in a Ponton that would make someone offer such a crazy sum and I kid you not, he did indeed make this offer.

Who knows what people see in certain things that they go crazy over. Modern art by famous artists, even in India go for crazy prices. To the buyer, it's art, to me it's something that I cannot understand at all

I'm just glad that with an auction house now selling cars, the values of our classics may go up and maybe this is something we should be happy about (if we're looking at selling, pity the buyer though).

Just my 2 bits.

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Old 18th May 2012, 21:36   #17
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

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A friend offered 35 lakhs for a 4 cyl Mercedes Ponton in outstanding condition and was refused Owning one, I don't see anything in a Ponton that would make someone offer such a crazy sum and I kid you not, he did indeed make this offer.

I'm just glad that with an auction house now selling cars, the values of our classics may go up and maybe this is something we should be happy about (if we're looking at selling, pity the buyer though).mbz180
The values of classic/vintage cars in India is completely skewed from the little I can tell. I regularly see very average, "common" classic cars asking obscene money (don't know if they sell or not).

Once in a while a car of real quality comes along and if I am contacted to discuss it what always strikes me is how prepared everyone is to talk the car down and try to get a bargain price for it, when the "regular stuff" is going for a fortune.

Point in case is a car that is featured in all the discussions on the "top" cars in India that is for discreet sale - I don't think the owner is in a hurry. Without giving too much away, I know that there have been a number of offers at asking price, but then when it actually comes to it everyone tries a last minute knock down!

The web auction phenomena is a good thing, and I think a proper car auction of quality cars in India may bring some very interesting figures in. It's open and the market clearly dictates what something is worth.

Right now, if a car comes up for sale only those "in the know", will know.
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Old 18th May 2012, 21:45   #18
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Google'd the article up:



I know exports of vintage cars from India are prohibited. Are imports allowed?

On a related note, Mercedes does work closely with SaffronArt : Link

This is one of the Mercs the Classic Center currently has on sale. Imagine it becoming available in India. I'd buy it over the current S Class any which day!!!

Link

Attachment 928240
GTO saab.

There must be an effort by such organisation to periodically have auctions of cars, but it all boils down to the kind of attention to detail they do, in the sense, does it justify buying a car auctioned by Saffronart/Mercedes...? Have they done full justice to the cars while restoring it..? Lots of question arises when something new happens in a country like ours, where most of the things happen with (chalta hain attitude) I would definitely love to buy something off the shelf if its THAT WELL RESTORED and comes at a SANE PRICE.

The above Pontiac, would not have even made it to the Auction Centre abroad.

Hope we get to see some Well Restored cars get auctioned to worthy buyers.

Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 18th May 2012 at 21:50.
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Old 18th May 2012, 22:31   #19
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

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Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM View Post
does it justify buying a car auctioned by Saffronart/Mercedes...? Have they done full justice to the cars while restoring it..?
Saffronart is merely a platform for buyers & sellers to get together. Does the Team-BHP Classifieds rejuvenate a car before it's listed for sale? It's not their job to restore a car.

See, the beauty of such auctions is that the buying & selling of vintage cars is no longer within a "closed circle". Even a Mr. Patel who is sitting in Navsari, Gujarat can buy a vintage car that he fancies. A vintage car that would previously have 2 - 10 interested buyers suddenly has 5,000 people checking it out. Prices will inevitably go up, simply because there are FAR MORE BUYERS that the vehicle is exposed to. Lets also not forget that this is an auction. There is no fixed asking price. It's competitive bidding that pushes the price up.

The internet has changed the dynamics of many businesses. Ebay USA (as an example) has over 8,000 collector cars listed. However late it may be, I sincerely hope it penetrates deeper into the Indian vintage car scene. Hopefully, one day, we can have a dedicated Vintage & Classic car section on the Team-BHP Classifieds

Last edited by GTO : 18th May 2012 at 22:32.
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Old 19th May 2012, 11:20   #20
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Hi GTO, What you say has merit. This car, not a classic by any standards, has been in the market for several years and could not manage to get even half this price.Perhaps because she was offered to a small group of enthuisasts who know their onions. Now with an auction, many newbies have an oppurtunity to buy like this young twenty something builder. I hope these guys do their research before bidding though. Two 1954 dodge convertibles were also going to be included but could not be dolled up in time. Auctions are great for the seller, Caveat Emptor always being the case but what is the protection offered to the hapless buyer? To me this was a classic case of missreprentation of facts. In which part of the world is this car considered a classic? But these are just my views, not meaning to impose them on anyone.

Hi Faster, Your statement about one of India's top cars being for sale is interesting. Could you please send me a pm if the seller wants to be discreet? Somehow , I get the feeling you are based in Poona. If so is it the ??

Last edited by karlosdeville : 19th May 2012 at 12:34. Reason: Consecutive posts
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Old 19th May 2012, 14:03   #21
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

For me, the services of a scrupulous auction house would be a blessing in disguise. Not only as a buyer, although I guess my buying days are over, at least for some time, but today more as a seller. I just don't get the time to follow up on the enquiries after I advertise a car for sale. An auctioneer who can do that for me, deserves every bit of the commission that they'd charge me and then some.
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Old 19th May 2012, 15:46   #22
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

Interestingly as I had envisoned there are two schools of thought posting on here, one feels the car was over priced and the other feels it was acceptable.

This is fine, the guys who feel its overpriced would stay out of the bidding and the guys who feel its worth the money will bid and buy the car.

As it was an auction the bidders had a chance to see the car and asses its condition and thus the price they were willing to pay.

Now if its 20 year something people with more money than knowledge of such cars buy them then whats the harm in it, at the end of the day the car is going to be saved and will be around for future generations.

Now its a 50+ year old car and definitely is a vintage car and so I dont see the reason people are fussing its not worth collecting, going by this logic the Dukkars, Fiats and VW's would definitely not be collectable.

Its interesting to have an auction house sell cars in India currently. If they do it well, presenting the car in its true condition, warts and all, then they are doing a good job of it. If they offer puyer protection then its definitley worth taking part in the auction.

Individuals selling cars then to hide the truth about the defects and as there is no buyer protection you are stuck with the car once its paid for.

Another interesting point to note is that with an active auction house regularly doing sales the buying and selling of cars will leave the realm of those "in the know" and be accessable to the common man.

Faster mentions a "top ten" car is on discreet sale. Now this is not encouraging to the classic car community as a whole as only a select few are being informed about its sale cutting out the rest of the enthuseasts.

The arrival of classic car auctions in India is a positive step and heralds a new and open era where cars will be bought snd sold in the publics eye and not is corners of private clubs and drawing rooms at undisclosed prices.

It will help create new classic car lovers and help the community grow as a whole instead of having the cars and knowledge confimed to just a privileged few.
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Old 20th May 2012, 10:15   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasif

The arrival of classic car auctions in India is a positive step and heralds a new and open era where cars will be bought snd sold in the publics eye and not is corners of private clubs and drawing rooms at undisclosed prices.

It will help create new classic car lovers and help the community grow as a whole instead of having the cars and knowledge confimed to just a privileged few.
i agree with you wholeheartedly, this can only improve the whole experience for classic car collectors. So far only a priveleged few, have been privy to rare cars being available for sale the rest have had to deal with fiats, beetles and the likes. Dissemination of knowledge and opening out the process of buying and selling in a transparent manner will only make this hobby accessible to many more. Point in case i just learnt from the thread that this car was for sale at half the price it sold for, now many were not even aware of this. I for one would defintely have loved to have owned it at that price :-) but the fact of the matter is i think the days of buying similar cars at 1.5 l are definately long gone when beetles are being quoted at 6 and 7 lakhs and people are buying them!
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Old 27th May 2012, 17:56   #24
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Spotted the recently concluded auctioned car which was sadly on the side of the road post the exit off the sealink towards Bandra due to an oil pressure pipe leakage and the front suspension looked like it had collapsed . Hope it as a speedy recovery. A very nice car and great vfm after seeing it in person.

Cheers

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Old 27th May 2012, 22:19   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kasli
Spotted the recently concluded auctioned car which was sadly on the side of the road post the exit off the sealink towards Bandra due to an oil pressure pipe leakage and the front suspension looked like it had collapsed . Hope it as a speedy recovery. A very nice car and great vfm after seeing it in person.

Cheers
Very nice car indeed such things will keep happening and its a part of the ownership experience, now i really feel someone should have told me when it was for sale for half. Something different from the usual impalas for sure :-)
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Old 28th May 2012, 01:53   #26
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

Hi guys, this is the second thread I wanted to comment on, I have my opinions and I am not quoting them as there are too many.
I was aware of this auction and had informed tbhp members about this a while ago.
People seem to forget that there are three actors involved in an auction sale, the auctioneer who want to attain best price to get more cars to sell, the seller who wants to maximize his profit, and the buyer looking to buy a car at the best rate.
That was a simplicit statement, the auction house is not looking for a one off event and would like to offer a service to encourage others to consign their cars to them.
The result has shown that all have benefited
The auction house had a sale above reserve price.
The seller got more than he was offered in the past (according to our learned members)
The buyer got a car where he won an action, btw that car as of now is unique in India, a Canadian RHD Pontiac.
The car, a Pontiac was a Goa car which came to Goa prior to liberation in 1961. The cars imported to Goa were mainly right hand drive, Beetles, Peugeots 403, Opel's, Mercs, Holden, Austin, Cadillacs, all came to Goa in RHD drive form. After liberation the car lovers in Goa were badly affected because Indian stupid policies were imposed and their purchases were limited to Ambys and Fiats.
She was bought in Goa, went to Hyderabad, restored in Delhi but seller was from Mumbai.
The car is quite presentable, the owner won her in an auction in competitive bidding and should be pleased with his acquisition. She is eye candy, and for a start quite a catch. Owner should be happy with the car.
Unfortunately, the car indeed did break down, the oil pipe did fail (btw, what is an oil PRESSURE pipe??) but I know that a replacement has been acquired. She will be soon back on the road. The car was offered for inspection to all bidders, the winner should not have a grouse, he will soon learn what vintage and classic car ownership means and how to live, deal and get on with it.

I thought that comments on the restoration and pricing were unfair in general, if you did not bid, the condition is irrelevant to the commentators. Why do some think that they must say that the car is not well restored? What is the compulsion other than opinionating? After all, no one knows with what intention did the buyer bid for the car, maybe he was prepared for a FULL stripdown restoration. Those who know the buyer and have interacted with him could but need not comment, others are merely speculating.
The auction house can to view this as a success, their clientile may clamor for more cars, but then where are cars available? Today, for example, you can import food products from China (yuk), but you cannot import a vintage or classic car.

I read comments about paying a higher price from the comfort of your home via the net. That is sheer rubbish. Auction is one more source for cars. I have purchased a lot of vehicles, cars and bikes from all over India, in more than 90% cases the owners don't know me and I was nowhere near by. I got these through agents and friends, sitting in my office with the comfort of my telephone. For me nothing has changed, but auction is a new medium which takes the competition into an open forum. But many prefer to do quiet deals, like the lot of Packards and other cars currently being offered. Don't ask me about them, the broker(!) is on tbhp ask him!

These are not the first vintage/classic cars auctioned in India, this has happened before, e.g. with bank auctions, where two Rolls were sold.
Someone asked if cars were Art, well cars are cars, an investment, valuable, so why can these not be auctioned? Watches and clocks are also auctioned, are these art? No, but no question was asked about them.

My final 2 bits on this. The vintage car scene is very complex in India, it could have been made easier if our club was active in helping members to sort out issues instead of selfish gain. Many cars don't have clear docs, our club can but won't help. Such cars cannot be auctioned as clear docs are required. If the government were to consider these cars as national heritage, that would help in documentation and availability of spares, but again our club does nothing except play politics.
Someone wishing to enter the vintage car field as a newbie is not going to find comfort in an auction house, he needs to get to know people and ask questions. Before I bought my first car I made friends with people who owned vintage cars, they took me to the bazar and I even visited the vintage car club of that time. You have to learn the ropes just like you learn your business. If you chose to become a builder, you don't become one by winning a plot at an auction. Get my drift? So, if one intends to acquire cars, one should get to be one of those who is "in the know". Its not difficult, and will expose you to different personalities.

Lastly about Mercedes Benz selling vintage cars, what a joke. Mercedes Benz has been active in Opera House with dealers of their parts, but have no where even offered to touch base with owners of Vintage Mercedes cars in India. Aa a lark I once phoned MB in Pune, told them about a vintage car I own, the response was as warm as I could get from a barber. Maybe they could work on that first. Mercedes Benz tries to portray that they are a life style co, so they bombard you with Golf events which many Benz owners don't play, or invite you to the Noida track, now they associate themselves with Art in auction. They have lost touch with reality, recently it was in the news that Audi was top selling foreign high priced car above BMW and Mercedes. Audi was virtually unknown 12 years ago, the attitude of Mercedes to a buyer is so bad that they border on obnoxious. I have personal experiences with them, they must be the only company which had to sell their unsold W124's as second hand vehicles after putting 5000 KMs on the clock. They cannot sell their cars in a way to give some happiness to a buyer, and they are going to sell vintage cars? These would be pre 1940 being vintage, btw, they would have to source within India, recondition and sell. I feel that this is not possible, just hot air.
I have been to a Merc showroom in Germany and have seen these young classics. They are cars like W 124 coupes & convertibles, 126, 123 coupes, all reconditioned with some warranty, and expensive. As far as I am aware these are offered only in Germany, LHD, I am not aware of these being available in UK where we would get RHD cars.

I read here that GTO wants to buy a W 126. If I had known, I could have forwarded info about a one owner car which was scrapped for Rs 60000/-. One significant method of acquiring cars is to let the community know what you are looking for.

Cheers harit
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Old 30th May 2012, 19:44   #27
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

All the points seem very compelling. The old village economy and semi-barter system between a few people in-the-know keeps prices at sane levels. Enter a whole new audience flush with funds (stock investors/NRIs for example in housing), with a hankering to 'belong' to an exclusive club, throws all the 'rules' into the wind.

Auctioning these cars to me seems like a great boast at the next cigar and single malt event. "Oh, I picked up this classic car the other day, it's a beaut." I have a feeling they are trying to acquire a new taste. Stick to sushi guys.

For newbies like me, trying for the last few years to pick up something I will cherish, for an affordable sum, will soon disappear.

Unless of course I do what @harit has suggested. Start meeting you all.
Learning the ropes fast and hopefully identify something that makes me smile. So in case I haven't announced it clearly, yes I am in the market for something.

Question: I love machines in general. And most cars. Except the Logan's design (or rather the lack of it). So I don't have a fixed "I have to get this car".
I would love to get a Beetle, or an E-28/E-30, or a 70's muscle car, etc. If I like it and it's at a good price, I don't mind any of above or more.

Do you also have such an open brief? Or you have only one target?
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Old 31st May 2012, 11:49   #28
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

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All the points seem very compelling.... ... boast at the next cigar and single malt event........I would love to get a Beetle, or an E-28/E-30, or a 70's muscle car, etc. If I like it and it's at a good price, I don't mind any of above or more. Or you have only one target?
Auction is just another platform. This being the first with so many cars to choose from, high price was reached. If this were to become a regular feature and more cars were available, I am sure prices will stabilise. The guy who got the car is a youngster, I think you have a wrong image of him. Anyhow, apparently he also had no other sources, wanted a car and so took part in this auction.
About the cars you require, well you are vague with everything. Do you want a restored or a project car, what is a good price? Just ask around, there is a project Javelin doing the rounds.
What is meant by your sentence regarding target? Not clear to me.

Cheers harit
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Old 31st May 2012, 12:25   #29
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I may have jumped the gun in forming an opinion on the current owner. Unfair on my part I agree.
Probably because I have been meeting some people with cars to sell, and in two cases the cars had changed hands really fast, like currency notes in a wallet.

They claimed to be car lovers, but I could see no maintenance on the said vehicles.

One of them said "Parking issues, moving to New Mumbai for more space, buying a hatchback, I love cars" in the same breath. Made me walk away from the tempting car, because story didn't quite add up. And he was a business owner, so couldn't be sheer monetary reasons. Could have been passing on a vehicle with no outward issues, but some nasty surprise underneath. Just like the yellow Beetle GDA xxxx being advertised in the classifieds.

Since I am as newbie as they come, it's reminding me of my third scuba dive in a rough Andaman Sea. Sand kicked up, low visibility, a strong current pulling me away, and my mask flooded at 55 feet below.

I wish I could PM you about what I have in mind. It's a project car, that will require intense effort. In it's present condition it's a horror story and have spoken to a couple of members on the forum briefly.

But what I can see is, what an amazing ride it can become.
I don't want to jump in without knowing the depth, to continue on the scuba analogy.

There is more pleasure for me to go the restore route for obvious reasons rather than buy a restored car. Another car will come along I am sure if this one goes.

Can I meet, get involved, help, etc., as first steps, with someone who is doing a project car at the moment?

Any takers for a volunteer?
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Old 31st May 2012, 16:20   #30
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

Hey automaton glad to put the effort to help and loop you into my current project and perhaps get you on your way....less talk, less complication...more action ...please feel free to contact me 9820147755 NIKHIL
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