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Old 31st May 2012, 22:16   #31
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Nikhil, thanks for the generous offer. Much appreciated. Will call you on Saturday morning, if it is ok with you and we can figure out what next.

In the mean while, watching the television version of Team BHP, Discovery Turbo.
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Old 1st June 2012, 00:25   #32
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A suggestion. This thread should be merged with the 'Vintage and Classic Car Valuation'.

The best part about posts and threads on this forum is that you dig deeper and discover relevant threads and information posted years back that make sense to you even today. It's the hallmark of a well run and great forum. Thanks, all the moderators. Impressed.

The contributors even more so for spending time, sharing information, educating people, asking tough and uncomfortable questions that we sometimes dare not ask, or answers people will not willingly share.

That is one thing I have noticed in the brief time that I have been part of this community. Sometimes names and more often, prices are almost never discussed. So be it. But indicative figures in the classic car section should be made less grudgingly available.

Especially in nebulous areas like Vintage and Classic cars. The village has grown. Too suddenly for some. Keeping crucial details like pricing is a great way to keep the community a closed one. Run down condition or restored car, it all finally boils down to how much. If that information stays (not asking for exact details and bill of agreement) off limits, with not even a ball park figure, then people like me, who are debating whether to take the painful road to discovery of owning a classic car, remain on the fence. Because we don't know how shallow or deep the pool is. Property Times has an indicative PSF rate for various suburbs. While individual apartments and buildings may have different/higher prices, it has changed the way people start thinking about buying a house.

So, Harit, Sir, if you think I am vague, you should see how it looks to me. No offence meant.

The way I look at it, the seniors (not just in age, but people who have gotten into this earlier) have a tremendous head start in a market with a limited number of classics.

Sirs, you already have the cherries picked. No amount of money is going to make you part with those.

What I ask is this. Should the Classic car community (Vintage, newbies like me shouldn't get into and can't anyway afford), be like some inclusive clubs or religions? Where one is included through prior association?

Or should you make a start, like the Chartered Accountancy results, restricted, but 2-3% newbies are admitted into the fold after a rigorous and tough exam. So CAs are not mushrooming, but enough are 'passed' every year to keep the momentum going and the baton is being passed to a younger generation. Initially I may not want to necessarily 'buy' something till I have bought 'into' it. For me this forum is akin to hanging around in a garage to learn the ropes.

[Slightly off topic: Should there be a Team BHP Clubhouse somewhere near Mumbai? A big ground to park the beauties. A refreshment corner for the cars. A small track to flex their muscles? A swimming pool to clean themselves off? And a small corner to park ourselves in the meanwhile ]

What we want (hopefully there are more like me) is to start somewhere. We are all here to listen to the joyous sound of a well restored engine, the thump of a well oiled lock. The soft 'tak' of a gear crunching precisely into the right slot.

The same basic reasons why you got here many, many years ago.
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Old 1st June 2012, 19:31   #33
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

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Originally Posted by Automaton View Post
A suggestion..... ......................... Sometimes names and more often, prices are almost never discussed. The village has grown. Too suddenly for some. So, Harit, Sir, if you think I am vague, you should see how it looks to me. No offence meant.
.....the seniors ....have a tremendous head start in a market with a limited number of classics.
Sirs, you already have the cherries picked. No amount of money is going to make you part with those.
....The same basic reasons why you got here many, many years ago.
Cut up the quote as it would have been too long, unnecessary.
First, don't merge this in the valuation thread. We are talking about auctions, the results achieved need not be true market representative, they can be below expectations. And many a times record prices are achieved. The auction results do influence valuation, but here we talk about auctions, not market situations. And I also find that thread very unrealistic.

The community is close knit, and secretive. Has to be. Many times a car spotted by one is snatched by another because he was indiscrete. Then, some having trouble with others send the authorities to your door step. Both these things have been done as late as this year. tbhp is in a way similar to facebook, you do not know who all are reading your posts. So we have to be vague.

But you who wants "something", will have to spell out what that something is. I hope you don't consider this statement arrogant. And you have to give a hint about the budget, and you have to let people know at what condition you are willing to step in(junk, running, roadworthy, restored, concourse?)

Yes we did have a head start, and over us so did Pranlal, Rony Khan, Mr. Roy, Mr. Thakkar, Mr. Sanghi, the list is long. Some of the stuff one considers valuable was still being junked in movies(remember that silver Camaro and Mr. Bachan? Did we pick cherries? Yes we did. Are all picked? No, but the rates have gone up, just like petrol(was available in annas and pice at one time)

No, we cannot limit members, collectors keep sprouting up in all corners in India and that is good, local knowledge get spread. We have a vintage club which could coordinate and conduct activities, but that is not function for vintage and classic car enthusiasts benefit.

The solution is net working, go and meet people, I have met so many people and learnt the ropes, enjoyed company, and shared this passion.

I was a bit direct, and just gave you a tip on how to go about this.
May you soon have your classic.

Cheers harit
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Old 1st June 2012, 20:12   #34
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Thanks for the reply. The picture and reasons are clearer. Appreciate it all.

In fact I prefer shooting straight and fast. Gets me into trouble sometimes but experience has shown me it is more peaceful and better for all concerned.

To help me understand things I have been reading a lot, writing to learn and ask and today paid a small visit to Nicki Garage for a chat with Kaizad Engineer and his team on a couple of things.

To be honest, I didn't specify what you ask, instinctively I think, till I get to know a few people and get the confidence to move ahead.

No, the budget not large.
Prefer restoring (daily use level).
Would like to start with a small project as a learning curve.

I also was posting a lot more so that newbie status gets revoked and I can start PM-ing people, including you sir.

Till then I am forced to be vague, ha ha. A few more posts and then I shall discuss my plans.

Thank you again.
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Old 4th June 2012, 19:56   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harit View Post
... the list is long. Some of the stuff one considers valuable was still being junked in movies(remember that silver Camaro and Mr. Bachan? Did we pick cherries? Yes we did. Are all picked? No, but the rates have gone up, just like petrol(was available in annas and pice at one time)
Some good points made in this thread, but I do want to contribute the little I recall\know on a couple of them.

You mention some names as having a "head start". It is worth clarifying that at least two of those individuals (and another few who are not named) used to try and find owners to match the vast numbers of vintage cars that lay across the country, unloved and rotting. A particular Big Benz comes to mind that was rescued and a home found. This is in sharp contrast to some of them (in my opinion, and if I am attacked on this I will probably ignore it) who were only interested in collecting for themselves and sometimes without being discerning. I am not going to be plain about names but more than a few of you will know exactly who did what.

Are the cherries picked? Yes, they are. Every last one.

That time will never live again. From reading another thread Harit started his (impressive) knowledge in the late 70s, the first movement was already over by then and the serious cars mostly bought - most remain with the same families who bought them in the late 60s.

However, and again with reference to cherries the prices have gone up but what frustrates me is that there is no consistency and this is a symptom of a lack of knowledge. A lot of debate I have seen on this forum asks what something is worth. The market abroad is extremely sophisticated and using a matrix based on marque, model, date of manufacture, condition and availability there is usually a very clear band of value - something I elaborated upon (much to some people's surprise) in the "top ten" thread.

The problem in India is the same old issue. No-one really knows what something is worth and buyers and sellers are unwilling to follow the Western model. The simplest way is to assess the objective value with Western prices and then add a premium depending on the level of car we are talking about and the numbers that exist. E.g plenty of average US stuff around compared to something like a Big Benz. Why this premium? Because, in my opinion, there is a finite number of cars available for purchase in India and there will never be more than that due to the laws. In the West you can export and import freely. Supply and demand = equilibrium price.

An oversimplified view, but I thought I would offer it nonetheless.

With reference to the softly-softly, quietly-quietly approach that one needs to adopt when selling or buyng, that is the same as its always been. You don't want certain people knowing you are looking or selling as you may find yourself entertaining most unwelcome company and attentions, something I have experienced first hand. I would only part with something I cherish to someone I know of, and who found me through a channel I would consider safe and reliable.

These auctions are great for the American stuff, the Heralds and the Spitfires but the big cars (which should pull big money as I clearly showed with the RM results when pushed for evidence on the top ten thread) are unlikely to change hands via an auction unless Christies or similar (or perhaps Cartier at their 2013 concours) held a proper auction - all the details available and clear reserve prices based on proper, sensible valuation. Papers clear and monies paid within hours of purchase like an auction abroad.

Bulldogji, I'm afraid I have no residential links to Pune at all but I know who your thinking about (I think!)! The car I think you are thinking of was up for sale some time ago and actively discussed here, but I believe the car is no longer being actively marketed. It may be though and if you're interested the family should be easy to contact - you certainly don't need me. It had a heft price tag though, I didn't particularly agree with it myself even taking an "India premium" into account. Then again, that's just my opinion and as such everyone should really form their own opinion.

At the end of the day, I believe what I have said above holds some merit perhaps, but really speaking something is only worth what someone will pay for it. Just look at Pet Rock! Pet Rock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Automaton View Post

[Slightly off topic: Should there be a Team BHP Clubhouse somewhere near Mumbai? A big ground to park the beauties. A refreshment corner for the cars. A small track to flex their muscles? A swimming pool to clean themselves off? And a small corner to park ourselves in the meanwhile ]

What we want (hopefully there are more like me) is to start somewhere. We are all here to listen to the joyous sound of a well restored engine, the thump of a well oiled lock. The soft 'tak' of a gear crunching precisely into the right slot.

The same basic reasons why you got here many, many years ago.
A nice thought, but with property prices, forget it! Best of luck.

Last edited by karlosdeville : 4th June 2012 at 20:10. Reason: Consecutive posts
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Old 4th June 2012, 20:12   #36
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If only wishes were horses sir!
Who knows someone may just bequeath some space for the club. Fingers crossed.
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Old 5th June 2012, 11:31   #37
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

Thanks Faster. Your identity is intriguing, your knowledge mind blowing. I wonder if you would care to share your memories with some of us in person? Just wishful thoughts of someone interested in history, specially the motoring kind, in India.
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Old 5th June 2012, 16:23   #38
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

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Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
Some good points made in this thread.... ,....You mention some names as having a "head start". It is worth clarifying that at least two of those individuals (and another few who are not named) used to try and find owners to match the vast numbers of vintage cars that lay across the country, unloved and rotting. A particular Big Benz comes to mind that was rescued and a home found. This is in sharp contrast to some of them (in my opinion, and if I am attacked on this I will probably ignore it) who were only interested in collecting for themselves and sometimes without being discerning. I am not going to be plain about names but more than a few of you will know exactly who did what.
Are the cherries picked? Yes, they are. Every last one.

That time will never live again.......
....The car I think you are thinking of was up for sale some time ago and actively discussed here, but I believe the car is no longer being actively marketed.....
Just look at Pet Rock! Pet Rock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Faster, you had mentioned in one of your posts on another thread about a debate. Well in that post you have not yet started debating, but here I would like to debate, we don't attack unless warranted, the mods see to that.
What I want to debate about is your giving an impression that in the days of old all was hunky dorry and lots of camaraderie among enthusiasts. By and large you are right, I know of so many gents who went and passed on cars to Pranlal for example. But there were also those who were enthusiasts, but yet sold cars to foreigners who exported them, even after the ban. And these people were most active in Kolkata, Mumbai and Delhi. These dealer type of guys actually entertained those hunters from abroad and helped them along. That is how the Farman went, then the Rolls 17 EX, Bharatpur 20 HP, and many more. Before the ban so many more cars went out. Later, after the ban was introduced, many became collectors themselves and retained their cars. Apart from that, we do help fellow enthusiasts get cars, and that is often a thankless task because pricing is not stable. If an owners gives a price, a broker may quote price + %, and it appears one tried to make money on these deals when buyer hears both prices.

Which big Benz are you referring to? Probably the supercharged one

There are still cherries to be plucked, only they have become expensive. Once in a while even a high end one owner car comes up for sale. And there are still a few cars waiting to be discovered, believe me.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that those times will never come back. Forget about cars, so many parts were available in Chor bazar, now you cannot get some Fiat parts easily.

Are you referring to one of the early muscle cars?

And Pet Rock, ah yes, should have collected those, no need to work with grease and oil, and fight against nature against oxidation. No need of parking spaces too!

Cheers harit

Last edited by harit : 5th June 2012 at 16:26.
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Old 11th June 2012, 00:45   #39
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

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What I want to debate about is your giving an impression that in the days of old all was hunky dorry and lots of camaraderie among enthusiasts.
What an odd thing to say Harit given you go on to say that by and large I am right in your next line and in your own words [paraphrased] you weren't involved then. Nothing is perfect and while I may have rose-tinted glasses, I know the quality of the people associated with the movement. No offence to those involved today, I simply don't know them.

Quote:
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By and large you are right, I know of so many gents who went and passed on cars to Pranlal for example.
These are probably the individuals I am referring to. A number of them only used Pranlal as a last resort. In fairness to Pranlal, whether it was his vision or his obsession he would buy anything with an RR badge to start and eventually almost anything. I say "in fairness" re. vision/obsession because back then next to no-one used to appreciate these cars - I recall jeers of "khatara" from our fellow mean when we used to ride in things that regularly command in excess of USD 150,000 today. He appreciated these cars, whatever the reasons.

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But there were also those who were enthusiasts, but yet sold cars to foreigners who exported them, even after the ban. And these people were most active in Kolkata, Mumbai and Delhi. These dealer type of guys actually entertained those hunters from abroad and helped them along.
I did not associate with any dealers. I ocassionally bought or dealt with them and that was all. However, I am digressing from this topic so I shall stop here.

Last edited by Faster789 : 11th June 2012 at 00:48.
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Old 25th June 2012, 17:49   #40
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

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Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
These are probably the individuals .......... "in fairness" re. vision/obsession because back then next to no-one used to appreciate these cars - I recall jeers of "khatara" from our fellow mean when we used to ride in things that regularly command in excess of USD 150,000 today. He appreciated these cars, whatever the reasons.

I did not associate with any dealers. I ocassionally bought or dealt with them and that was all. However, I am digressing from this topic so I shall stop here.
Also, Pranlal bought the cars when availability of tyres was the biggest headache, and people were already mileage concious "kitna dehte hai", making these cars even more unattractive. He was a genuine enthusiast, recognizing the beauty of these cars way before many others.

Since we still don't know your identity, we cannot and I did not comment about your association with any dealers

Cheers harit

Last edited by harit : 25th June 2012 at 17:51.
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Old 3rd November 2012, 12:39   #41
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

Really don't know if the price is right, but I just had a very close look at the car and found it absolutely gorgeous.
I heard its rarely driven nowadays.
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Old 4th November 2012, 12:43   #42
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Originally Posted by vikramvicky1984
Really don't know if the price is right, but I just had a very close look at the car and found it absolutely gorgeous.
I heard its rarely driven nowadays.
The right price is always the price at which something sells especially in an auction, so yes the car was probably worth the money and so the new buyer found value in it. I have personally seen worse for more cheers
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Old 7th November 2012, 20:50   #43
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

It seems as if the young buyer has passed on ownership via tha same dealer who earlier was unsuccessful in selling the car. This Pontiac has found a new middle aged owner, not via the auction route this time, and the car is now in a prominent workshop awaiting repair. having had a chance to see her at close quarters, I find her cosmetically acceptable, mechanically in not good shape. maybe the young gentleman who bought the car at the auction realised that beauty is only skin deep. Hope the new owner has patience and deep pockets. Only then will she become a reliable daily runner.
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Old 8th November 2012, 11:37   #44
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogji View Post
It seems as if the young buyer has passed on ownership via tha same dealer who earlier was unsuccessful in selling the car. This Pontiac has found a new middle aged owner, not via the auction route this time, and the car is now in a prominent workshop awaiting repair. having had a chance to see her at close quarters, I find her cosmetically acceptable, mechanically in not good shape. maybe the young gentleman who bought the car at the auction realised that beauty is only skin deep. Hope the new owner has patience and deep pockets. Only then will she become a reliable daily runner.
Any idea what price it changed hands at this time ? Was it higher or lowere than what it sold at auction for ?
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Old 9th November 2012, 11:10   #45
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Default Re: Saffronart, an Indian online auction, sells '61 Pontiac Laurentian for 13.42 lakh

Wasif, lets just say that the gentleman who bought this car in the auction is unlikely to do so again. For newbies my advice is not to rush into such purchases, but to talk to people in the know and then take a call after getting the car thoroughly vetted by a mechanic you trust. If the cost of purchase plus cost of work to be done makes sense , go ahead. If not, back off. At least that has always been my philosophy.
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