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Old 23rd February 2013, 04:28   #1
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Exclamation Entering a Concours for the Love of it, or is it only about Winning?

Have been meaning to write and enter the forum for a long time but duty willed it otherwise for so long.

Not any more though and my first post for the forum is about concours, vintage car and bike rallies (oh, how ridiculous this term is!), so-called-museums by the ill-informed and surely many great motorcycles and cars yet in existence.

The oldest and the earliest events which I went to were the annual Statesman Vintage & Classic Car Rallys in Delhi. It was a grand conglomeration of old dowagers who assembled thanks to the old boys network in our capital city. Mind you there were the genuine passionate selves among the deep pocketed kinds as also those who had lovingly got the ol' banger rustled up to work for this solitary event in the year.

And then there were the Bernie Ecclestone types - the wheeler-dealer sort, who were masquerading as part of the same vintage set but with ulterior motives to make a killing, strike a deal or two, and spin tales of did you see a V12 Maybach Zeppellin just outside Baramulla?

The vintage and classic rally has been done and dusted for long and it continues to be held in this moribund manner still in Delhi, in Bombay, in Shimla, in Calcutta, in Cochin, Goa, Poona, Madras, Hyderabad, etc, etc. In a way it ia good annual airing for old engines needing a blast but sadly to see the same year in and year out means there won't be many takers for them even in their own towns and cities. Especially if one is trying to get the young PSP and XBOX brat brigade to come out and start working on old metal powered by the proverbial petrol-sipping internal combustion engine.

The Cartier Concours got things pointing in the right direction some years ago but like all things Indian, those who weren't on the short invite list were offended and those that didn't get a gong or two for their machines were mighty miffed. The same thread ran to the second event in Delhi and on to the third as well I hear.

In all this I detect the failure on the part of many enthusiasts to understand why a concours can never cater to the masses but it would always be one of selection according to a set of classes put up by the organising committee. Every major concours event the world over has just this selection criterion which is not for debate. Pebble Beach, Amelia Island, Monterey, Villa d'Este, Goodwood and many others work behind the public glare and select the automotive gems they would like to have for their events and then the invites are sent out to the respective owners at least three to four months ahead of the event to get their machines all spruced up.

Unfortunately the Indian mind doesn't take to this selection business very kindly. In fact, we heard of a collector who tried to bump and barge his way into a similar event by invitation only in Pune and he was very firmly but politely told that his rules of play didn't help either his cause or that of the classic car movement.

I think we need to start picking a leaf or two from the Cartier events held so far in India and apply the learnings in small but insightful ways at events all over the country. We have to reinvent the wheel for our movement but only by playing it smart with new classes, but fairly at that in terms of judging and such. Maybe a couple of events in Pune showed the way forward with everyone from a Rolls-Royce Phantom III and its owners being treated on par with two enthusiasts astride a 1949 Jawa 250! No discrimination, all on a single level plank and the event was for everyone to see and enjoy each others' passion.

Sadly this is missed at many an event but hopefully we shall start seeing a sense of maturity in this movement from now on.

And finally, to all those who come into this only with the sole aim to win over all else and money be damned, I say don't, because you would get very frustrated, get even more hot under the collar when your prized car or bike isn't in the running even if you should run to a fairly mischievous shoulder to cry on and then shout hoarse as to being so unfairly penalized!

There were instances one has seen so many times at events that it makes me think in disbelief as to whether they are in it for the love of cars and bikes or are they only fond of winning? Especially if one has set out to buy success and wins at any cost, including of course buying vehicles at auctions abroad and then seeing their investments not pay off!

Think about it, because more than the winning it is the restorative journey which is far more pleasurable, creative and intense. If you buy something you think no one has and then muck it up with making it to look nice rather than original then this game is not for such types.
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Old 23rd February 2013, 18:20   #2
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Originally Posted by vincentcomet99 View Post
Have been meaning to write and enter the forum for a long time but duty willed it otherwise for so long.
Read your views with great interest.By the way Cochin has not witnessed any classic or vintage rally in the last decade(correct me if it is otherwise)
and also can you please tell what you mean by PSP and XBOX??

Last edited by GTO : 25th February 2013 at 18:17. Reason: Please quote ONLY the relevant bits of a post. Quoting an entire long message inconveniences our mobile users
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Old 24th February 2013, 01:37   #3
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Originally Posted by ajay99 View Post
Read your views with great interest.By the way Cochin has not witnessed any classic or vintage rally in the last decade(correct me if it is otherwise)
and also can you please tell what you mean by PSP and XBOX??
Sorry if there hasn't been a rally in your city but probably in the mood of all things classic and vintage, I did happen to read and see images of classic cars at perhaps a motor expo or such which regularly have space for such cars.

And by PSP and XBOX I mean todays kids having their handheld computer games and also perhaps the new fangled smart phones which have these built in!
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Old 25th February 2013, 12:58   #4
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Default Re: Entering a Concours for the Love of it, or is it only about Winning?

Vincentcomet99, Hi.

My understanding of the English language seems deficient, as I really have not understood your post. What exactly are you getting at?

Which SO CALLED MUSEUMS do you refer to?

What is ridiculous about the term Vintage car and bike rallies?

Your comparision of two owners in Poona, the first with a P 3 and the second with a Jawa being treated at par, is a bit difficult to digest, knowing the owner of the P 3.

What LEAF do we need to pick from Cartier? Do elucidate.

Some of us now go on long distance drives, not sponsored by Cartier or any club, doing what we like best. Enjoying our cars and spending weekends with like minded people and their families. We discuss cars, listen to each others problems and help out wherever we can. No prizes, special awards, mentions etc.

If you have a road worthy car, not just Cartier worthy, you are most welcome to join our group and experience what camaradie means to us, a small group of non politically inclined friends.
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Old 25th February 2013, 13:11   #5
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Default Re: Entering a Concours for the Love of it, or is it only about Winning?

Summarising what Peter Stevens - one of the judges said

Pebble Beach - cars are over-restored with the objective of making millions
India - Cars were restored with pure passion to achieve excellence and nothing more
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Old 25th February 2013, 14:09   #6
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@Bulldogji and Ajmat - I think you'll and Vincentcomet99 are saying pretty much the same things. I think what Vincent is implying is that these events are meant exactly for the like minded people and the camaradie. But then amongst those there are some whose interest lies solely in winning accolades rather than enjoying yourself which is the most important thing.

Restoring these beauties is pretty much like nurturing a lifeless tree and then bringing it back to life. There is an emotional connect between the car and the owner, but its not the same when the whole purpose of this beautiful painstaking process is just to win at all costs. Just my 2 cents about Vincents post.
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Old 25th February 2013, 15:40   #7
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Originally Posted by balenopower View Post
Restoring these beauties is pretty much like nurturing a lifeless tree and then bringing it back to life. There is an emotional connect between the car and the owner, but its not the same when the whole purpose of this beautiful painstaking process is just to win at all costs. Just my 2 cents about Vincents post.
For me owning, maintaining and restoring old cars is a hobby. I have been to many concours all over the world. I'm qualified to judge on concours sanctioned by Jaguar Clubs of North America. I've won several prices with my Jaguar and my Alfa Romeo Spider.

But in all honesty I can say I enjoy the smaller locally organized concours above these very prestigious big time concours. The reason is along similar lines as pointed out above. The purpose becomes winning, not enjoying the car.
Each to its own. I'm probably pretty competitive in many ways, but with cars I just don't give a hoot. You don't like my cars, you think they are ugly, that's your problem never mine.

Taking one of my cars to a concours was just as good an excuse as anything to spent a whole day with my cars, meet friends, talk about cars, look at cars, take loads of pictures and in general just have a very enjoyable day.

As I used my Jaguar as daily drive the fun started for me usually a week before. I would put it in our garage and work on it every evening after I came home from work. I love cleaning and polishing my cars.

Having your car on display is nice. People will talk to you. Your wife, your kids, your colleagues are all bored stiff about you always blabbing about your cars. And all of sudden perfect strangers will stop at your car and start asking you lots of questions! It's great!

When we lived in Kansas City. I was a member, treasurer and webmaster of the Heart of America Jaguar Club. ( http://www.jcna.com/clubs/main.php?club=sc16&Vref=sc16 )

We organised a yearly concours for our members. These concours were run under the official Jaguar Clubs of North America rules and all affiliated club members could participate. Which was great, because potentially you had more cars and a more diverse group of cars. We really enjoyed our local Jaguar club. Nice bunch of people, we made some good friends. But there were other Jaguar clubs that had fiercely competitive members that would go to any length of trouble or cost to win.

Every year on the annual JCNA meeting most time was spend on the official club judging rules. So here goes for an example. The Jaguar XJS never carried any painted side strips when it left the factory in UK. But nearly all them received, as standard, these strips by the US Jaguar dealers. So, nearly all US XJS have them.

For years this was never a problem. Until somebody started pointing out that an XJS with stripes was not original. Original being defined as how a car left the factory. Which meant an XJS with stripes should incur heavy penalty points. And thats' how it was done. Which took 90% of the XJS owners away from even getting close to winning. In a concour the margins are small and this was just to big a factor to overcome.

The guy who started all of this owned, an XJS with, your guessed it, no stripes!
I mean how anal can you get?

I think these days it's really pretty sad people who win some of these top concours. There are still some true and genuine hardcore petrol heads of course. But to often the owners have seen very little of the cars, spent little time with it, and or spent little time overseeing restorations. Just having a big cheque book doesn't make you a petrol head or a classic car connoisseur as far as I'm concerned. It just makes you a big spender, nothing else.

I have yet to sample the India Concours scene.

But here are some of the concours I participated in:

http://jeroendorrestein.com/Frances%..._Concours.html

http://jeroendorrestein.com/Frances%...rs_2012_2.html

This was one of the nicest concours I visited during the last few years, with many remarkable cars and it was literately around the corner from where we lived:

http://jeroendorrestein.com/Frances%..._concours.html

Enjoy your cars, classic or new, but don't get to uptight about them. In the end they're just tin boxes. There are many more important things in life.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 25th February 2013 at 15:46. Reason: Correcting some grammar
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Old 25th February 2013, 16:43   #8
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Default Re: Entering a Concours for the Love of it, or is it only about Winning?

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Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
Summarising what Peter Stevens - one of the judges said

Pebble Beach - cars are over-restored with the objective of making millions
India - Cars were restored with pure passion to achieve excellence and nothing more
That is pure comedy gold if I understand the implications correctly.

1. Peter Stevens is a designer, and while he has experience as a concours judge, I am not sre whether he is good enough to be a PB standard of judge. With respect to Cartier and the participants, the Indian Cartier car show has a long way to go before it can get anywhere close to being mentioned in the same breath as Pebble Beach. Really speaking it just sounds like he was being nice and saying the kind of things you need to say when you are being wined and dined by the nice people at Cartier.

2. Steven's statement (if accurately paraphrased) appears to imply that car is Pebble Beach cars (and their owners) over-restore their cars and it's simply for financial gain. What "over-restore" means is a mystery to me. A car is either correctly restored or it isn't. Once that happens, it can't be too shiny, too well run or too immaculate which what I would assume that word means. Overrestore is simply a redundant term. Also, it is utter nonsense to assume that PB participants are it in for the money. You have only to follow the stories of painstaking detail and years of restoration to rubbish that view for what I believe is the majority of the cars. Take a moment to appreciate the work and "pure passion" that has and will go into the Bugatti Aerolithe that will no doubt appear at PB soon.

Also, you can take it from me that a number of participants really don't need the money and very few cars will "make" (i.e. a profit) you millions anyway. Some people are there for the "wrong reasons" (it is a car show and not a movement for world peace to put things in perspective), but I can tell you from personal experience that plenty are not.

3. The statement implies that PB is a bloated occassion with cars dressed up like tarts and the India event is by "real" people, with "real" cars who made "real" efforts and the end results is a towering acheivement against all the odds (cue dramatic music from appropriate movie sountrack). It was all "passion" vs. the pure commercialism that is PB of course... That statement completely ignores the state of affairs, politics and dubious awards that have been widely discussed on this forum re. the event and what a foremost collector described to me as a "circus".

What a joke.

Ajmat, none of this is directed at you or your views. I've heard this sentimental, blowing your own trumpet stuff before and it really does raise eyebrows.

Re. the original post, I really don't see what "leaf" the Cartier show has to offer to stalwarts like Bulldogji or the grassroots drives and events that I see popping up on occassion. Cartier was a commercial car show and a PR/marketing showcase and not a concours in my opinion. Cartier had plenty of good things I'm sure, but let's get some perspective on what it was.

All views expressed are my own, and that is of course, entirely my perogative.

Last edited by Faster789 : 25th February 2013 at 16:45.
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Old 25th February 2013, 23:44   #9
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Originally Posted by Bulldogji View Post
Vincentcomet99, Hi.

My understanding of the English language seems deficient, as I really have not understood your post. What exactly are you getting at?

Which SO CALLED MUSEUMS do you refer to?

What is ridiculous about the term Vintage car and bike rallies?

Your comparision of two owners in Poona, the first with a P 3 and the second with a Jawa being treated at par, is a bit difficult to digest, knowing the owner of the P 3.

What LEAF do we need to pick from Cartier? Do elucidate.

Some of us now go on long distance drives, not sponsored by Cartier or any club, doing what we like best. Enjoying our cars and spending weekends with like minded people and their families. We discuss cars, listen to each others problems and help out wherever we can. No prizes, special awards, mentions etc.

If you have a road worthy car, not just Cartier worthy, you are most welcome to join our group and experience what camaradie means to us, a small group of non politically inclined friends.
Hey you seem to have just gone off without understanding my very plea that we need to first get to love people who love cars more than just get in for showing off! Yes you are right about the museums bit because I have seen a couple of so-called collectors who pass of their hoard of cars as museums when actually they are in fact collection halls. You are right maybe I didn't elucidate on this adequately but now I am sure you must have got the drift.

I think we need to keep the personalities at bay here because while the owner of the PIII is a very well known socialite, the owner of the Jawa was and does remain just as intense in his passion or more. And lest you think this is not true then ask anyone who attended the ZigWheels Fort Jadhavgadh meets and you would have an answer.

It is possible for many to get together bound only by one common thread - an unbinding love for cars and bikes. Trouble is the word EGO which spoils so many things and it could happen to a Rajdoot owner or a Rolls-Royce owner! As long as this sad trait of human weakness is kept out, we could go on to enjoy our cars and bikes and the movement could and will grow.

However, as we grow, we need to keep one constant and that is being adaptable to welcome change. The first thing when change is on the anvil is one fo confrontation, by diehards first. Yes even I have been guilty of this on occasion but when you care to see that if change can help grow the movement, one should probably take it in stride and help the movement.

Where I was coming from on the vintage and classic rally terminology is just that - are they really that or just some sort of motley parades, some obviously better organised than the others but still parades. I have known of your drives and also of those in Delhi and these are just what this movement needs. However, can you term these drives as rallies?

Also why bring in Cartier here for the rallies or for that matter any other sponsor? There is a place and occasion for so many diverse events and yes propagating them correctly (parades and drives rather than rallies) in an ever influenced era courtesy the digital world means we can't be rattled by our own thoughts to keep us pegged in the dinosaur era.

Love everything you mentioned Bulldogji especially the spirit of it all and I hope you got to understand at least a fraction of where I come from. No offense meant I am on your side, at least thats why we are all here, and I sincerely hope so otherwise this movement can't be the sole prerogative of one or two individuals and/or clubs.
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Old 26th February 2013, 00:02   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogji View Post
Vincentcomet99, Hi.

My understanding of the English language seems deficient, as I really have not understood your post. What exactly are you getting at?

Which SO CALLED MUSEUMS do you refer to?

What is ridiculous about the term Vintage car and bike rallies?

Your comparision of two owners in Poona, the first with a P 3 and the second with a Jawa being treated at par, is a bit difficult to digest, knowing the owner of the P 3.

What LEAF do we need to pick from Cartier? Do elucidate.

Some of us now go on long distance drives, not sponsored by Cartier or any club, doing what we like best. Enjoying our cars and spending weekends with like minded people and their families. We discuss cars, listen to each others problems and help out wherever we can. No prizes, special awards, mentions etc.

If you have a road worthy car, not just Cartier worthy, you are most welcome to join our group and experience what camaradie means to us, a small group of non politically inclined friends.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
That is pure comedy gold if I understand the implications correctly.

1. Peter Stevens is a designer, and while he has experience as a concours judge, I am not sre whether he is good enough to be a PB standard of judge. With respect to Cartier and the participants, the Indian Cartier car show has a long way to go before it can get anywhere close to being mentioned in the same breath as Pebble Beach. Really speaking it just sounds like he was being nice and saying the kind of things you need to say when you are being wined and dined by the nice people at Cartier.

2. Steven's statement (if accurately paraphrased) appears to imply that car is Pebble Beach cars (and their owners) over-restore their cars and it's simply for financial gain. What "over-restore" means is a mystery to me. A car is either correctly restored or it isn't. Once that happens, it can't be too shiny, too well run or too immaculate which what I would assume that word means. Overrestore is simply a redundant term. Also, it is utter nonsense to assume that PB participants are it in for the money. You have only to follow the stories of painstaking detail and years of restoration to rubbish that view for what I believe is the majority of the cars. Take a moment to appreciate the work and "pure passion" that has and will go into the Bugatti Aerolithe that will no doubt appear at PB soon.

Also, you can take it from me that a number of participants really don't need the money and very few cars will "make" (i.e. a profit) you millions anyway. Some people are there for the "wrong reasons" (it is a car show and not a movement for world peace to put things in perspective), but I can tell you from personal experience that plenty are not.

3. The statement implies that PB is a bloated occassion with cars dressed up like tarts and the India event is by "real" people, with "real" cars who made "real" efforts and the end results is a towering acheivement against all the odds (cue dramatic music from appropriate movie sountrack). It was all "passion" vs. the pure commercialism that is PB of course... That statement completely ignores the state of affairs, politics and dubious awards that have been widely discussed on this forum re. the event and what a foremost collector described to me as a "circus".

What a joke.

Ajmat, none of this is directed at you or your views. I've heard this sentimental, blowing your own trumpet stuff before and it really does raise eyebrows.

Re. the original post, I really don't see what "leaf" the Cartier show has to offer to stalwarts like Bulldogji or the grassroots drives and events that I see popping up on occassion. Cartier was a commercial car show and a PR/marketing showcase and not a concours in my opinion. Cartier had plenty of good things I'm sure, but let's get some perspective on what it was.

All views expressed are my own, and that is of course, entirely my perogative.

Many good points but again intensely passionate and lacking in perspective at times! No offense Fasterji but PB is the playground of the rich and the even richer where prized projects are commissioned over a four to five year scale solely with the objective of bagging Best of Show.

The glamour quotient is overwhelming on the Pebble greens and yes when people like Stevens and his sort come to more warmer climes like ours where just to have an event seems a tremendous occasion they feel a certain difference. His comment might be too simplistic but if we are not careful we might go this way as well!

In fact it certainly did this year when a Pune-based collector bought a handful of motorbikes from various auction houses abroad solely so that he could win Best of Show at Cartier! I thought the Norton Manx was a sure shot winner, immaculate and sporting matching numbers. It also had a fine racing provenance but sometimes this seems inadequate and the owner - a Puneite blundered badly, and the world champion riders Agostini and Phil Read pointed out where he had erred, significantly!

In a way this was welcome because hard working people like Subodh Nath, Capt Shashidhar, Reuben Solomon, Diljeet Titus etc who have sunk so much time, effort, care, love, patience into their beloved possessions might not bother turning up the next time round, anywhere if it is going to be a have money, will buy success.

I don't think anyone has anything to offer to an individual however exalted he may be and this is not directed at Bulldogji who I have met many times and have loads of respect for but if the movement can learn something then we all tend to gain. Hope I have made my stand clear, it is for the movement and nothing else otherwise the very ego we detest from the other side would be the thing to get us all wound up!
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Old 26th February 2013, 00:13   #11
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Default Re: Entering a Concours for the Love of it, or is it only about Winning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
Summarising what Peter Stevens - one of the judges said

Pebble Beach - cars are over-restored with the objective of making millions
India - Cars were restored with pure passion to achieve excellence and nothing more
I have quoted this post first, though it is not the first on this thread, because this is the second Cartier joke related to the event. The first involved Rajkot, Chunky Pandey and Jackie Shroff, a newspaper clipping of the Mirror. Its obvious, if someone still needs clarification I shall be pleased to do the needful. Sure cars were restored with passion, some went all out, thats all legitimate. But skewing the entries to help the priviliged win, well I prefer over restored cars, they will have more credibility. And victories helped along in the end turn out a bit hollow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentcomet99 View Post
.................. The Cartier Concours got things pointing in the right direction some years ago but like all things Indian, those who weren't on the short invite list were offended and those that didn't get a gong or two for their machines were mighty miffed. The same thread ran to the second event in Delhi and on to the third as well I hear.

In all this I detect the failure on the part of many enthusiasts to understand why a concours can never cater to the masses but it would always be one of selection according to a set of classes put up by the organising committee. Every major concours event the world over has just this selection criterion which is not for debate. Pebble Beach, Amelia Island, Monterey, Villa d'Este, Goodwood and many others work behind the public glare and select the automotive gems they would like to have for their events and then the invites are sent out to the respective owners at least three to four months ahead of the event to get their machines all spruced up.

Unfortunately the Indian mind doesn't take to this selection business very kindly. In fact, we heard of a collector who tried to bump and barge his way into a similar event by invitation only in Pune and he was very firmly but politely told that his rules of play didn't help either his cause or that of the classic car movement.

I think we need to start picking a leaf or two from the Cartier events held so far in India and apply the learnings in small but insightful ways at events all over the country. We have to reinvent the wheel for our movement but only by playing it smart with new classes, but fairly at that in terms of judging and such. ........................
Sadly this is missed at many an event but hopefully we shall start seeing a sense of maturity in this movement from now on.

And finally, to all those who come into this only with the sole aim to win over all else and money be damned, I say don't, because you would get very frustrated, get even more hot under the collar when your prized car or bike isn't in the running even if you should run to a fairly mischievous shoulder to cry on and then shout hoarse as to being so unfairly penalized!

There were instances one has seen so many times at events that it makes me think in disbelief as to whether they are in it for the love of cars and bikes or are they only fond of winning? .........................
Wow, strongs words, advocating that future events be based on this Cartier Model? Oh God, please spare the vintage and classic car movement in India from such ideas.
As I have mentioned before, this Cartier event really split the vintage car movement very very deeply. The first step is to cozy up to the curator. Once he is cozied up to, he will help you secure numerous entries, and eliminate serious competition. And "voila", the favoured car has a better chance of winning!!
Dear Vincent, please explain the selection process which should not be questioned. I started the thread on the 2013 Cartier event in Feb 2012, knowing some of the cars already selected at that time. The hoi polloi were informed only in November 2012. I am Indian, and therefore by default so is my mind, and my mind has seen through the sham, the selection process, the prizes, and the wool being pulled over many eyes, of both the organisers and participants. The Cartier folks must have organised the event with good intentions, the curator took it to a new (Indian) level, only he was the visible go between Cartier and car owners. And in the end, the selection was not the best for the show as would have been expected of a curator.
Indeed we don't take the selection process kindly, since there was no process to speak of. And there is no failure on the part of many enthusiasts to understand anything about Cartier processes, many of us have understood it fully well and are not in agreement with their practices.
VCCCI has been doing similar practices since years, Cartier took it a few steps further. But VCCCI now finds that many vintage car owners no longer need them, suddenly the vintage car movement has become lively. I will elaborate this later, the key is competition.

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Originally Posted by balenopower View Post
@Bulldogji and Ajmat - I think you'll and Vincentcomet99 are saying pretty much the same things. I think what Vincent is implying is that these events are meant exactly for the like minded people and the camaradie........................
Restoring these beauties is pretty much like nurturing a lifeless tree and then bringing it back to life. There is an emotional connect between the car and the owner, but its not the same when the whole purpose of this beautiful painstaking process is just to win at all costs. Just my 2 cents about Vincents post.
I don't think Bulldogji and Vincent are saying the same thing. The Cartier event was not meant for like minded people but for buddies, sometimes even having commercial interests. So when you know whose car is bought from whom, restored by whom, the interconnectivity, you will be shocked. Sure there is passion, not only emotional connect for us hobbyists, and yet some hobbyists do take it to a new hight. They are still hobbyists, but they want to win at any cost. Every participant has the right to take his restoration effort to a new level, whats wrong with that if they can afford it. Some have created fascilities not generally available, hats off to dedication and passion. If affordable, why not win at any cost to self. Thats still fair. The unfair means used here trouble me, and they were also at new levels.

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
For me owning, maintaining and restoring old cars is a hobby.................... But in all honesty I can say I enjoy the smaller locally organized concours above these very prestigious big time concours. The reason is along similar lines as pointed out above. The purpose becomes winning, not enjoying the car.
Each to its own. I'm probably pretty competitive in many ways, but with cars I just don't give a hoot. You don't like my cars, you think they are ugly, that's your problem never mine.

Taking one of my cars to a concours was just as good an excuse as anything to spent a whole day with my cars, meet friends, talk about cars, look at cars, take loads of pictures and in general just have a very enjoyable day .............. Having your car on display is nice. People will talk to you. Your wife, your kids, your colleagues are all bored stiff about you always blabbing about your cars. And all of sudden perfect strangers will stop at your car and start asking you lots of questions! It's great! .................... Enjoy your cars, classic or new, but don't get to uptight about them. In the end they're just tin boxes. There are many more important things in life. Jeroen
I almost agree with you 100%. I was there at the first Cartier as a participant, rarely left the side of my car and met so many people, unbelievable. I did paint my car, put new covers on seats, forgot to clean up the engine bay, learnt a lot, had fun, did not aspire to win a prize. The fun quotient was huge, and we have similar sized fun when we go on our long classic car drives. We did have people from so called different camps, yet we had fun, no one was cornered, and I believe they will join again if time permits them. Aside from perfect strangers, I also meet known stalwarts and greet them even if we don't see eye to eye. This is my hobby, its not personal, its just that I react to nepotism and attempts to cheat for the sake of winning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
That is pure comedy..............With respect to Cartier and the participants, the Indian Cartier car show has a long way to go before it can get anywhere close to being mentioned in the same breath as Pebble Beach. Really speaking it just sounds like he was being nice and saying the kind of things you need to say when you are being wined and dined by the nice people at Cartier.

2. Steven's statement ....................dubious awards that have been widely discussed on this forum re. the event and what a foremost collector described to me as a "circus"............... What a joke.........................
Wow Faster, you almost spoke my words, joke, circus et al. I suspect you are not always around in Mumbai, and yet you have such insight from afar

Joke: In the bike section a NSU won, with a Mikuni carb and its a Max, not Supermax. Such errors are unacceptable for a Cartier show. Forget about a new leaf, this is what VCCCI also does.
As I have said before, I'm not too much into bikes, but politics in that field is also volcanic.

Hope this post is read in the right spirit, honestly I have no personal axe to grind, I am an observer from afar and some circus acts make me vocal.

Cheers harit
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Old 28th February 2013, 00:32   #12
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Default Re: Entering a Concours for the Love of it, or is it only about Winning?

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Originally Posted by vincentcomet99 View Post
In fact it certainly did this year when a Pune-based collector bought a handful of motorbikes from various auction houses abroad solely so that he could win Best of Show at Cartier! I thought the Norton Manx was a sure shot winner, immaculate and sporting matching numbers. It also had a fine racing provenance but sometimes this seems inadequate and the owner - a Puneite blundered badly, and the world champion riders Agostini and Phil Read pointed out where he had erred, significantly!

In a way this was welcome because hard working people like Subodh Nath, Capt Shashidhar, Reuben Solomon, Diljeet Titus etc who have sunk so much time, effort, care, love, patience into their beloved possessions might not bother turning up the next time round, anywhere if it is going to be a have money, will buy success.
I have been reading your posts quietly and with great interest. You are a bit of a know it all and goody goody two shoes aren't you?

I am not sure why you particularly refer to the Manx not winning in the councours as a good thing, by that logic nor should the Rajkot Rolls. All the bikes which have won including the goldstar and the swift had major defeciencies that i will not mention on this forum. Lot of the facts you have presented above are factually incorrect and represent the views of certain people whom i don't want to mention (and you will certainly know who i mean) if sweat and toil deserve a prize along with 100 percent accuracy in restoration then why did the 57 elegant not win? There was no better candidate! My friend we aren't really naive on the forum and lets not pretend that the judging in the bikes and indian classics section was perfect. So it's best that you do a little more research from your source, obviously someone well aware with the wheelings and dealings in the bike and indian classics category. I suggest you pick up a copy of the latest "bike india" and then we shall have this discussion.

BTW what is so great about the zigwheels Jadhavgargh event? please elaborate!

You obviously have an axe to grind with some people and affiliations with some others. If i were you i would be happy to see a manx in person and leave it at that. But thats if you were a true enthusiast that you claim to be. Hopefully in the days to come you will prove us wrong! Or continue with the shadow games that you are starting to play on this forum.

There may be something in common in our garages after all, though i dont know if you have a new one or an old one :-) is it red?

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Old 28th February 2013, 00:48   #13
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Default Re: Entering a Concours for the Love of it, or is it only about Winning?

Competition is always a healthy way forward. For the vintage car scene having your car judged by a knowledgeable person who rates all aspects of your car is a great learning process and means to improving your car through greater detail and effort in restoration. The value of a concours is also the opportunity to meet and see other owners and their cars and learn from their experiences. Its such fun to meet fellow enthusiasts.

So loving cars and competing is not such a bad idea in my opinion. Giving Cartier its due many cars have seen fresh restorations and great efforts by many a owner to showcase his prized possession or his talent in restoration. Although I didn't get to see the cars in person from the photographs I can tell the game has certainly moved on and the quality of restorations slowly but surely is inching toward very high standards.

A competition has to be fair and above board for it to have merit and sadly in India we seem to spoil perfect opportunities to create great competitions through petty politics and personal greed. Behind the scenes strategising to ensure prizes are given to the favoured few is all very sad. Blatant favouritism kills the spirit of fairness in any competition and in my opinion spells its doom.

Such games demotivate the genuine enthusiast and often I see owners opting out of car shows because they feel its beyond them to play the game to win.

The Cartier show has promise of becoming the PB of India, but only if the petty politics end. An enthusiasts's love for his car, his treasured motoring experiences, and the many tales to tell are the greater part of this hobby. A concours has to work hard to win his trust and patronage. For remember, without the enthusiast there will be no concours.

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Old 28th February 2013, 11:50   #14
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Default Re: Entering a Concours for the Love of it, or is it only about Winning?

{I don't think anyone has anything to offer to an individual however exalted he may be and this is not directed at Bulldogji who I have met many times and have loads of respect for but if the movement can learn something then we all tend to gain. Hope I have made my stand clear,![/quote]

Vincent, I just cannot understand what you say. Why would anyone think your comments are directed at me? Unless that is what is in your mind?

I did send a car to one Jadhavgarh rally and the friend who drove my car was happy with the arrangements. However, I am told that certain payment issues have cropped up and we are unlikely to have another one.

Your comments that a certain collector bought bikes abroad ONLY to win at Cartiers is contradictory. A COLLECTOR collects because it is his passion, not to win at Cartiers.

If you really care for the movement in India, I would request you to not shadow box. Come out in the open with your identity, meet enthusiasts and share your thoughts.
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Old 28th February 2013, 18:12   #15
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Default Re: Entering a Concours for the Love of it, or is it only about Winning?

Some views from my side, completely my personal opinion and of course very debatable

1) The cars which are among the top at PB are more often than not owned by celebrities, multi millionaires & billionaires. I really don't think they would try to buy a trophy at PB. Rather, they'd try to get one through the quality of the restoration aided by no holes barred budgets. But owner's not fitting the above description have also won. I've read of a middle class American gentleman who acquired a worn down but extremely rare Chrysler (either a dual cowl phaeton or a roadster), saved money over years and then lovingly restored it to such a standard the it won Best of Show.

2) To the world's creme de la creme, a trophy would bring a smile to the owner's face, not much more I think. I mean, I don't think Ralph Lauren would get upset if his Count Trossi Merc didn't win Best of Show. It's a part of a collection that is being showcased to the public. A die hard like Jay Leno couldn't care less whether he gets a trophy or not. And there's always next year, new cars to buy and new restorations to commission for a trophy.


3) These events worldwide have been in existence for several years, maybe decades. The organisation, criteria for judging, who is to be a judge, what qualifies as a worthy entry, the tiniest details, have been fine tuned. The event itself has become a celebrity in its own right, there's no need for organisers to invite unworthy cars however influential their owner might be.

4) On the other hand, Cartier has had 3 events! It's just started and is going through (from what I've read on the forum after each of the 3 events) a lot of teething problems, some perhaps totally avoidable in the first place. The organisers possibly feel that the association with celebrities must be there to build up the image of the event.

5) I can understand fully how some owner's who are really into their cars are very disappointed if their entry which deserves a trophy (a no brainer case) has been overlooked in favour of another for whatever reason. It hurts. So when we know this happens, it maybe best to avoid going all out for the event and avoid the pain, after all, whether in America or India, the really passionate know in their mind that their car, if better, is better, so what if the judges don't think alike. But since what I mention in point 3 does not yet exist in India, to expect world standards is unrealistic.

5) I mention again, Cartier is new. If it survives for a reasonable stretch of time, the sharp edges may get smoothened out as only time can do.

There are several members on the forum who are unhappy with Cartier in many ways, probably justified. Amongst them, most have Cartier worthy cars, some several, some have been invited and participated (some haven't) and a few are even stalwarts in the classic car movement. Now with such a strong backbone, it is really upto them to push for better standards, iron out the wrinkles, elliminate the obstacles. They can do it for sure, and if they do do it, they will with the right intention of creating a world class event and not for personal triumph.

But if we keep cribbing and pointing fingers (perhaps completely justified) without doing anything, we aren't even giving a fledgling movement a chance to grow into something to be proud off.


PS: I write very cautiously intentionally since it's entirely based on what I've read on the forum on the 3 events and not from personal experience.
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