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|1st March 2008, 19:19||#17|
Senior - BHPian
"To each his own " is just the attitude that has never allowed the vintage car scene in India to develop into a mature industry.
The haphazard standards being applied by owners during restorations is reflective of their huge ego's and a desire to proclaim to the world they know what's better than what the original manufacturer intended for the car
To understand the ramifications of just such an attitude look at the scene in various cities in India. They are constantly fighting each other and bickering like kids. No club lasts for a while without splitting into factions. I see this in Chennai, in Bombay,in Hyderabad and now in Delhi. To me the reason is obvious. Every one likes to believe he knows what's best and they never seem to find a common ground to enjoy a spectacular sport.
Owners who believe its okay to apply whatever standards they wish to restorations really freak out when their car loses in a concours. They get upset and the fighting starts. All kinds of politics get started and the group breaks. Its all too sad and pathetic.
Gentlemen your vintage car is not a personal scrap book with which you can do as you please. To believe we know what's better than what the original manufacturer intended is pure vanity and nothing else. And in vanity no sport can flourish, which explains the scene in India today.
Agreeing that returning a car to the finish it enjoyed when new is the safest bet on a standard. If vintage car enthusiasts across India accept this as the norm then perhaps some cohesive element will emerge in this most awesome hobby. Otherwise it remains the fragmented industry it is.
Come to think of it, the pathetic state of our vintage car scene has not even spawned a decent chrome plating facility as owners cut corners and don't want the component to go through an expensive but correct procedure of copper plating, then nickel and finally chrome.
The issue here is not about absolutes. Its about finding a common ground and collectively reinforcing that standard. Do it and see what wonders it will do for the industry as a whole.
And that standard, as a proposal, is to return the car to the state it was when brand new. Its not my standard but that of the creator of the very automobile we lust after. Give its creator the benefit of doubt in deciding what was appropriate for his car and simply execute it, instead of embarking on vain journeys of turning these once magnificent automobiles into personal scrapbooks rendering the hobby into the fragmented state it presently is in.
|1st March 2008, 23:08||#18|
Hey DKG ,
Thats a very opinionated reply , you are entitled to your thoughts , but what industry are you taking up cudgels for - industry ??? -restorations to you maybe about personal plaudits but it is very difficult to come to terms with such a strong opinion about what restorations are all about and how the vintage fraternity should work , additionally a vanity which excludes all view points except ones own , this , leaves no scope for any other view point.
Clubs and fraternities are formed by listening to and understanding all view points and forming a common consensus not by being rigid in thought and procedure . There is room for all in the fraternity .
Even abroad ( USA or Europe ) people do excellent restoration but not everybody proclaims he is going to restore to Concours standards , so all others should.
Restoration for all may not be about entering a car for a concours and winning plaudits , it may be about bringing a car which has been dead for eighty years back to life , we have to be courteous enough to permit all to have a view point and yes again "to each his own". The thread is "criteria in vintage car restorations" with the advent of the information age we are all aware of the demands of the concours d'Elegance .
As for judging at Concours events :
the paint does play a part in score recorded in the judging sheet, infact each specific category (paint, chrome, interior, etc.) of the car is judged and entered in the judging sheet.
Further , one more important point -
" All too frequently Concours d'Elegance quality cars are not driven, except for short distances from their trailers to the show fields. They are not intended to be used as daily drivers and are often not seen outside of museums or private collections. Even after driving only the short distance to the show field, the car is 'staged'; errant bits of dirt or pebbles removed from the tire treads, bits of grass or mud wiped from the under-carriage, and the vehicle is constantly maintained, and frequently dusted to keep the absolutely flawless appearance while on display."
As such to each his own -
whether one enjoys driving ones car and enjoying the experience
to some the ultimate in enjoyment is to have a cosmetic car which is to be enjoyed in privacy after regular dusting and the source of existence of the car is the plaudits it gets the owner.
I THINK the purpose of the forum is putting ones views forward for others to appreciate , the views are open to critical comments which can be explained or be addressed . The forum should not be used for uncalled for and unnecessary criticism of our peers and of the others in the fraternity , everybody is entitled to his views and work , that is what the forum is all about.
In the end , I understand you were bequeathed a lot of lovely cars ( by the family and others ) , you were lucky , I do not think dusting and perking up existant lovely, exquisite and perfect cars with cosmetic upgrade and makeover counts for a renovation / restoration . Please do put up pictures of cars which have been actually renovated to Concours d'Elegance standards.
We have seen a Packard chassis which has been worked quite well - painted with an epoxy coating , I do not know the extent of surface preparation over which the epoxy was applied , but I do know the minimum surface preparation required for an epoxy coat is SA 2.0 if the surface preparation is less than this the epoxy coat is liable to peel off in its entirety . Any paint coat is required to have a minimum specified DFT for it to be perfect , the paint manufacturer would have specified anything between 75 to 150 microns for the epoxy coat. Further contrary to your belief epoxy is coating most liable to mechanical damage and an epoxy coat does not require a primer coat.
Thus suggest we discuss the issues on specific restoration projects rather than on a theoretical standard.
|2nd March 2008, 00:14||#19|
Senior - BHPian
Join Date: May 2005
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Primarily it is not my wish to offend anybody with my post below. No offence meant.
Firstly we have realized that there at least two (amongst others) persons on this forum who know their vintage cars and are really passionate about restoring them. Kudos to that. We have another bank of Vintage information available to us.
If I may, i would like to interfere in this politically correct argument by two individuals, obviously knowledgeable in the field of restoration and use of the English Language.
Gentlemen, I agree in some aspects with either of you, and disagree in some in the similar fashion. In some I disagree with both, even when both have different opinions. But this is not about me, or either of you guys. Its about the subject.
Firstly, I dont think that restoration would be called restoration if a restorer had the liberty to change body colours or upholstery materials according to personal whim and fancy. Restoration is all about returning the car to its old glory in every which way one can possibly do.
Secondly DKG we are in India and not any other country so lets discuss what we do in India and keep American Standards out.(With due apologies to the great country, they have always made their own standards, completely separate from the others, but thats another discussion altogether)
To cite an example, In the West, Egg and sometimes even Fish is considered as Vegetarian so do we ape their standards and tell our vegetarians to follow suit? No.
Similarly applying Western standards here is not proper. I agree that we do not have a single Chrome plating facility but yet we manage to get our plating done and very ably too. Dont you think thats commendable?
Facilities are available in the West so they are used. Being overcritical will not solve the problem and getting bitter about it does not do anything to help either. In a particular thread, a gentleman from the UK wanted desperately to bring his Bentley to India because he thought that the quality of work done here is at par with anywhere else on the Globe. Its is a pity that our antiquated import laws wont allow that. Now this was the opinion of a non Indian collector, not in anyway less passionate that you guys.
Each individual is entitled to an opinion but let that opinion not be thrust upon the others. You have a problem with the standards of restoration, fine, set your own standard. Make that acceptable to others, then criticize. Ardently expressing disgust and self opinionated posts critical of others will not change the system of getting work done. If one can show the light towards improvement it would be welcome.
We are trying to make the vintage cars survive. Help us in that. Dont point to an already existing problem and elaborate on how the West does not have it. We dont need it. If you can show the path of solution
We are all ardent fans of cars, Vintage and classic and always look forward to advise from knowledgeable sources such as yourself.
We all know there is a problem. We want to find a solution. Allow your posts to spread knowledge and information about the above aspect. This shows your passion. Complaining only shows your disgust.
I hope I have been eloquent enough to get my point of view through.
|2nd March 2008, 00:35||#20|
Senior - BHPian
Vintageman, I think you are taking this too personally.
Contrary to what you believe I have read with interest your views on what the criteria should be for restorations. "To each his own" doesn't quite cut it as criteria for restoration standards
Neither does the other view that returning a car to states other than factory fresh apply in all cases.
The third view put forth is of returning a car to factory finish. I personally feel this view has the most objective base for a common standard and would prove to be a cohesive factor in this hobby. That I personally subscribe to this view should not have any bearing on the discussion.
With regards to your specific comments about the origin of my cars or the calibre of my efforts in maintaining them or choice of restoration methods or materials, frankly, they don't merit any reaction from my side.
|2nd March 2008, 00:56||#21|
Senior - BHPian
V16, like you, there will be many who are satisfied with workmanship achieved so far in India and I respect your view. Perhaps the majority are extremely satisfied with the way cars are being restored here in India and I'm sure many feel its a subjective issue open to individual tastes and interpretation. I really don't think its my prerogative to question what people are comfortable with or pass judgement on their views.
If most people wish to leave standards open to interpretation then obviously we don't need any standards. We can always agree to doing that and close the discussion, rather than argue endlessly about wanting to freely interpret standards.
|2nd March 2008, 01:28||#22|
Senior - BHPian
As the car I have is American in my mind there is no debate personally about what standards I apply. I intend to follow the norms used in the US for returning a car made by Americans to its factory finish
I do, however, remain intrigued about the existence of Indian standards of restoration if you are suggesting I apply those. Please do enlighten. And for heaven's sake no one please interpret this as sarcasm.
|2nd March 2008, 09:25||#23|
Senior - BHPian
Now I know where a well known collector got his inspiration to paint a car in tricolor. Wow I am beginning to understand what we mean by Indian Standards
|2nd March 2008, 11:42||#24|
Senior - BHPian
Join Date: Oct 2007
Thanked: 976 Times
I agree with DKG's views regarding Perfect/CONCOURS restorations.
My understanding of a CONCOURS restoration is to get a car back to what it was when it came out of the showroom at the time of Delivery.
That means using NOS/Genuine(Refurbished) parts to the extent possible.USE Repros(reproduction/ substitutes ) only when there is no other alternative.
For eg: if the Original HEALAMP lens was LUCAS (made in England) use it for the restoration, resort to TVS LUCAS/other brands only if it is not available anywhere).
But unfortunately many restorers are not concerned/appreciate this aspect and use cheap substitutes ,repros so that the restoration cost remains less.
Another,regarding a Modern car like 1984 MARUTISS80 came with TOKAI DENSO(JAPAN) lenses but how many restorers will source for these lenses, they will just put in a LUMAX/ALPHA TOYO or even a NON-OE brand like NEOLITE lens and claim for MINT status.
I dont intend to offend anyone in this forum, but I have come across many guys in this forum,asking qns like whether TATA Aces, ..cable will replace......classic cars...
and so one. , whether ambassadors shocks will replace MORRIS MINOR shocks,etc.
DKG, the craze for "ORIGINALITY" cannot be thrust into the minds of all enthusiasts. It has to come from oneself.
Unfortunately in INDIA, it seems like DKG,JayD
, peeve, vintageman, 71 convertible, etc seem to be a MINORITY at least for the time being
But I am sure these guys will sooner than later will wake up to its IMPORTANCE
|2nd March 2008, 11:58||#25|
Distinguished - BHPian
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hyderabad, AP
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1960 Triumph Herald Coupe ( rare ) star buy !!! For Sale on Car And Classic UK
My Herald was originally green & white...I thought of putting on a removable orange camouflage on the roof alone & drive it down for one of the 15th Aug. rallies here!
|2nd March 2008, 13:39||#26|
Senior - BHPian
Gentlemen in the interests of upholding the spirit of this wonderful forum where civility rules and points/opinions are voiced without having to stoop to the level of making veiled or direct attacks on the credibility of an individual may I suggest a simple poll to bring this discussion to a fruitful close.
The different standards proposed by respected participants are:
1. To each his own. An open standard where for all as long as the people involved are having fun the restoration is valid
2. Return car to its last iteration of modification. Factory finish is not the standard but what subsequent owners modify a car to
3. Develop an independent Indian Standard. Here we don't need to follow what the west does, we develop processes to suit Indian workmanship/resources as we go along
4. Return the car to factory finish, as the original creator intended the vehicle to be
As I have no clue as to how a poll is started will need help from senior BHpians to start this poll and conclude the discussion
I think it will be fun to see what the majority desire. Democracy rules!!!
|2nd March 2008, 19:15||#27|
Hello DKG and others ,
My apologies for getting carried away by Saturday Night euphoria, made me more verbose than was required.
" To each his own " - standard
Gives me freedom to restore a car to concours status - if I think it is required , but at the same time permits me to paint another car red and and have a white interior if the kids want it that way as long as the mechanicals and bodyline are true to the original.
In short have fun at whatever I am doing.
I expect an invite whenever the concours event is arranged , I will be sure to drive down with a perfect concours standard car and then we will discuss the originality of the cars.
For All ,
I am surprised the thread did not elicit a response from Speedy - is he off the forum ??
|2nd March 2008, 21:46||#28|
Senior - BHPian
It was a real pleasure seeing the pictures you have posted of the Packard being restored. That car will look awesome on the road once its done.
Thanks for sharing
|3rd March 2008, 00:05||#29|
Distinguished - BHPian
Join Date: May 2005
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|3rd March 2008, 18:49||#30|
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Restoration of Vintage Cars
I am a collector & restore my own cars. My benchmark has been originality. My cars have won Concours in Chennai Shows.Having said that, I would leave the "Level" of restoration to the owner. First -
1)what is the objective-Concours or just well restored
2) How much is the budget? If budget is tight, restoration to be done to suit budget.This means cutting some corners.
3) Whether Concours or budget restoration, originality should not be lost; like maintaining almost the same paint shades, original engine, gear box and wheels, upholstery colors & design.
4) Carbs, electricals can be substituted for budget restoration
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