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Old 4th March 2008, 19:45   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
V16, like you, there will be many who are satisfied with workmanship achieved so far in India and I respect your view. Perhaps the majority are extremely satisfied with the way cars are being restored here in India and I'm sure many feel its a subjective issue open to individual tastes and interpretation. I really don't think its my prerogative to question what people are comfortable with or pass judgement on their views.
Hello DKG,
I think you have grossly misunderstood my posts not to mention my intentions.
To clarify certain points;
I do not recall ever having said or even implied that a restoration job should not be according to concours level. I wonder why you are continously mentioning, that a quality job is not possible in India. I believe otherwise. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.
I believe you may have also restored your cars in India, please correct me if Im wrong. If you have not, tell us where you have. If you are still not satisfied than instead of complaining, get them restored in America by all means. Im sure you do not need anybody's permission to do that.

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If most people wish to leave standards open to interpretation then obviously we don't need any standards. We can always agree to doing that and close the discussion, rather than argue endlessly about wanting to freely interpret standards.
Let me explain this. Actually, most people are those who have suddenly acquired the whim of owning a classic/vintage car. These are a special breed who consider it fashionable to have a car like that parked in their driveway and to display at Vintage rallies without having an aorta of knowledge or affection towards the marque they own. These are exactly the kind of people whom you are referring to.
Then come those who have inherited such cars and are not in love with them as you and me are, neither are they in need of money to dispose it away.
Such are the breed who will allow their cars to be vandalized by prying thieves in the guise of mechanics.


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V16 hope you are not suggesting there's is a fourth view of Nationalistic Interpretation to restoration

As the car I have is American in my mind there is no debate personally about what standards I apply. I intend to follow the norms used in the US for returning a car made by Americans to its factory finish

I do, however, remain intrigued about the existence of Indian standards of restoration if you are suggesting I apply those. Please do enlighten. And for heaven's sake no one please interpret this as sarcasm.
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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Choosing colours to impress kids??? What's next a pink Cadillac?
Now I know where a well known collector got his inspiration to paint a car in tricolor. Wow I am beginning to understand what we mean by Indian Standards

Your above two posts are contradictory.
In one you have requested that your innocent query not be interpreted as sarcasm and immediately in the next post you have taken off on Indian standards with a truck load of sarcasm.
We can all argue about what is better but what prevails is, that each owner will employ the process of restoration exactly how he wants and odes not give a damn about what you or me think. We can only look at the deplorable job done and hate it and criticize it to kingdom come. We may at the most discuss amongst ourselves as to the level of restoration comment on it. Frankly thats all we can do.
I realize and understand your feeling frustrated at the level of restoration work carried out by certain owners, believe me, the feeling is mutual but it is wrong to comment that all such work done is of the same level. You seem to have generalized that.
I absolutely agree on your applying American standards for an American car.
No one is debating that you should not restore her to her original glory or how she was meant to be. Even I do not subscribe to changing colours and upholsteries to suit ones own whims.

Somewhere you mentioned about a deteriorating collection from Western India. I know which collection you are hinting at and I totally agree to it being in an appalling state. That is largely due to a total lack of interest by the kin after the original collector's increasing age and deteriorating health. But it is also wrong to treat his collection as a bench mark of restoration today. A few years ago it would be totally the opposite. I would suggest you to see the collection of the Hegdes and the Khodays of the South, to name a few (if you could arrange that) and then comment.
Lets not make this into a personal, politically correct verbal battle between us.
Let us drop the sarcasm and the pompous attitude and add serious content to this wonderful thread without getting into one and another's faces. If we can learn from each other and share our experiences, lets do that, as, that is the spirit of this forum.
And if might add, it would help if you would tone down your attitude and give your "I am the God of restorers" complex a rest. Please do not take offense to my post as it was not meant to be offensive in the first place and I am truly not trying to be sarcastic.
What you seem to have overlooked is that all of us are on the same side.

Last edited by V-16 : 4th March 2008 at 19:47.
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Old 4th March 2008, 20:08   #32
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Originally Posted by V-16 View Post
"I am the God of restorers"
Hey, I would be seriously offended if any of you even consider taking that title away from me -- don't even think about it.

Seriously though --> I would say that there is a dearth of well restored (as in painstakingly researched and detailed concours type restoration) cars that are easily seen by other enthusiasts or by the broader public -- and I believe if we had more of these, it would motivate and raise the bar for other enthusiasts and I think there would be more such examples. It's not that these don't exist, they are seldom seen, they are seldom written about, etc...

Perhaps this forum could have more articles on such restored cars that list the level of detail the restorer went to to get it "right".
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Old 4th March 2008, 23:06   #33
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Gentlemen, neither am I a professional restorer nor an automotive historian. I have no delusions to that effect and in no post of mine have I proclaimed my efforts in maintaining my cars as reflective of a 100 point restoration.

I sincerely hope some of you quit taking this so personally and realise that I speak not from a position of authority but merely as a proposer of a standard.

A standard proposed will always be very high. It DOES NOT reflect a complaining attitude. If the chroming in India is pathetic, why are you so rattled when someone points it out? Accept it and improve it.

If restorers cut corners and use plastic wiring instead of the correct cloth cover wiring, accept the compromise and work toward the ideal

If people in the name of restoration paint their cars in fanciful colours which never existed for that period, as much as it may appeal to the owner's taste accept its a huge compromise

For your kind information in the 40 odd years of attending rallies I have never once commented on anyone's car. Neither do I go about making people feel that I consider the cars with me as reflective of any standard

Organisers of rallies in Hyderabad always count on my unflinching support and fellow enthusiasts have never had occasion to feel I look down on their handiwork. I don't consider it my prerogative to judge anyone as I am not in a position to judge at all

In this thread I have merely proposed a standard for restoration. Standards don't make room for mediocrity or excuses for it. Nor does it mean the standard is something I claim to be my achievement or reflective of my work

I am amused that some of you are not able to see the merit of my proposal but instead choose to drag this dialogue to a meaningless level.

DKG is not important here, nor are his cars or his work. Discard him. He is of no consequence in the grand scheme of things. Look only at what he proposes:

Can we agree to restoration standards that are driven by the sole objective of returning a car to the condition it left the factory

For someone who considers himself a mere custodian of works of art this standard makes it an obligation on his part to return the cars to the state the original creator intended
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Old 4th March 2008, 23:35   #34
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Originally Posted by 71Convertible View Post

I would say that there is a dearth of well restored (as in painstakingly researched and detailed concours type restoration) cars that are easily seen by other enthusiasts or by the broader public -- and I believe if we had more of these, it would motivate and raise the bar for other enthusiasts and I think there would be more such examples. It's not that these don't exist, they are seldom seen, they are seldom written about, etc...

Perhaps this forum could have more articles on such restored cars that list the level of detail the restorer went to to get it "right".
Well said. This is exactly the problem, the bar is too low, so shoddy workmanship gets overlooked.

I've seen some stunning Rolls Royces and Bentleys in the possesion of some Delhi and Calcutta families and was told the parts were sent to the UK to get refurbished.

The so called well known resorers who claim they've restored hundreds of cars have either done cosmetic work and totally neglected the mechanicals or done the mechanicals and compromised the cosmetics.

Sadly many an article or book has been released for print with glaring mistakes on model /year identification. How do you accept all this? One shouldn't. One must set very high standards so the whole game moves up.

This is not about whining or maligning someone or his efforts. Its about fine tuning the game and meeting a common standard

I'll give you an example of just that in these forum threads. A member by the name RAM has done exquisite work in educating readers about model identification. His work was brilliant. Not that I know anything about the cars he was discussing but I felt his approach was so methodical,he drew his conclusion with properly backed research and shared the info. We need more of that. Precision and standards
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Old 4th March 2008, 23:49   #35
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Originally Posted by V-16 View Post

I wonder why you are continously mentioning, that a quality job is not possible in India
Looks like you enjoy ascribing opinions to others!!! Please help me notice where in my posts I ever concluded that we in India cannot do a quality job? I have always maintained we can improve provided we set high standards

Its easy to misunderstand people and easier to ascribe opinions to others and write them off. God of Restoration attitude??? where on earth do you cook such stuff up?

Far from offending me buddy you seem to be revealing stuff about yourself which perhaps is not doing you justice

If all of us stick to the point of discussing standards and not stoop to the level of veiled or direct attacks then perhaps we can eventually evolve a mutually agreeable standard
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Old 5th March 2008, 18:37   #36
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DKG,
If only you had started your post with #33 or posted your intentions as in the above mentioned post, this thread would have been a page or less. You seem to only say something and immediately jump to the contrary statement. Anyway this is not a yours versus mine thread. I do agree by most of your intentions as in post #33. If you will read my posts with a less aggressive attitude and not take them personally you would see that we are saying the same thing...well almost.
I am saying the exact thing that 71Convertible is with whom you surprisingly agree, i.e. there is a dearth of restorers and my lack of understanding as to why most people carry out mediocre restorations, if one can call them restorations at all. These and some other are the very points both you and me are discussing in the same flow.
If you find some area lacking, instead of brooding and complaining, why dont you improve it? If you cannot then it makes no sense complaining about it. Instead of advising others why don't you take the lead and start a chroming facility. I will be your first customer (if you would allow me in)
If restorers are carrying out shoddy jobs it because there is a lack of knowledge from the side of the owner or because the owner wants to cut corners. You cannot blatantly say the work done here is bad.
It all boils down to money my friend, and the amount one is willing to pay or for restoration is the question. This point either seems to have escaped you or else you are hell bent upon claiming that the "Standards" are inadequate.
If you allow a restorer to cut corners it is you who is to blame. I hope you remember the maxim, a bad carpenter blames his tools. That is the case with many an owner.
Like you, i too do not subscribe to mediocrity in restoration nor to excuses for unacceptable workmanship, only you for some reason choose to see my view as exactly the opposite of yours. What I do specify here, is, that it is possible to get such workmanship in India...only one has to spend money. I will take liberty to quote another aphorism..You pay peanuts...you get monkeys"
I totally agree to your "Standards" when you say that one must bring the vehicle back to the condition it first rolled out of the showroom, whenevr, at whatever era. I hope that rests the case.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Looks like you enjoy ascribing opinions to others!!!
On the contrary..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Far from offending me buddy you seem to be revealing stuff about yourself which perhaps is not doing you justice
So now we are also a psychiatrist.
Anyways I request you to not get personal

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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Looks like you enjoy ascribing opinions to others!!!

Far from offending me buddy you seem to be revealing stuff about yourself which perhaps is not doing you justice
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
If all of us stick to the point of discussing standards and not stoop to the level of veiled or direct attacks then perhaps we can eventually evolve a mutually agreeable standard
Whos all of us buddy?
Veiled or direct, attacks seem to be your domain entirely.
If you would take time to read my entire posts rather than eagerly wanting to go post bashing as soon as I make a post, you would realize that I am saying the exact same thing you are.
Anyways if you have noticed, there are hardly any informed people of the forum posting on this thread which I initially thought would be very informative, instead it had turned out to be a personal whim and fancy domain with no room for constructive criticism.
Well good luck to you my friend.
Hope you can find someone to stick on, on this thread whom you dont offend or who does not mind being offended. I am outta here
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Old 6th March 2008, 12:17   #37
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Criteria for restoration

Going by what it takes to achieve a 100 point restoration I thought it would be a good idea to create a simple ready reckoner for the benefit of budding restorers visiting TBHP.

Needless to say we can endlessly debate on the merits of standards proposed. In my opinion presently there are no uniform standards being applied in India. It is hoped all of us passionate about vintage and classic automobiles use the following atleast as a guide.

The primary source of this and other info to follow is the Judging Manual of the Classic Car Club of America. For a full transcript of the manual please visit the clubwebsite.

The following denote deductions that are made on failure to meet the standard.

Engine

Will Not Start -5
Slow or Difficult To Start -2
Electric pump required for starting and/or operation. -2
Rough, Ragged and Poor Idle -2
Poor Acceleration -- Coughs or Hesitates -1
Missing On One or More Cylinders -3
Light Slapping or Rapping Sounds Under Acceleration -1
Heavy and Obvious Knocking When Revved -3
Low Oil Pressure at Speed -3
Inoperative Generator -2
Valve Noises -1
Excessive smoke -1
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Old 6th March 2008, 12:25   #38
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Windshield wipers

Wiper on Driver's Side Inoperative -3
Wiper on Passenger's Side Inoperative -2
Both sides inoperative -4
Wipes Slowly or Hesitantly on Dry Windshield -2
Motor Missing -2
Arm or Blade Missing Pass.-1 ea., Driver-2 ea., max. -4
Washer not Work -2
Washer Works, only One Side or very Weak -1
Wiper Blade in Poor Condition -1 ea.
Appearance (w/o plating) -1 ea.

It may be noted that if your car belongs to a period where washers were not applicable then obviously no points are deducted
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Old 6th March 2008, 12:57   #39
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The following are deductions made on failure to meet the standard

Horn

Horn Fails to Sound -4
Horn Sounds Promptly, but not loud enough for adequate warning- -3
Horn Button Has to be Depressed Several Times to Sound -2
One Horn Silent on Car with Two or More Horns -2
Horns Sound loudly, but are out of adjustment -1
Appearance (w/o plating) -1 ea.

Lights - Brake, Turn signals and Accessories

Brake Light Inoperative center or right side -1 ea., -2 left (assume this is opposite for RHD cars)
Backup Light Inoperative (Accessory or Std. Equipment.) -1 ea.
Turn Signal Light Inoperative -1 ea.
Turn Signals Inoperative or Faulty -3 max.
Driving or Fog Light Inoperative -1 ea.
Accessory Lights Inoperative -1 ea.
Broken Lens -1 ea.
Dull Reflector -1 ea.
Dimly Lit -1 ea.
Appearance (w/o plating) -1 ea. max -4.

Not all lamp bodies were plated originally, I suppose the plating refers to bezels as applicable

Lights - Interior and Instrument

Any One Light Inoperative -1
Broken/cracked Lens -1
Appearance (including plating) -1
Maximum deduction for interior light non-operation -3
Maximum deduction for instrument light non-operation -3

Last edited by DKG : 6th March 2008 at 13:11.
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Old 6th March 2008, 13:32   #40
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The following are deductions made on failure to meet the standard

Lights - Head, Tail, License and Park

Sealed beam lights if not so equipped originally. Deduct for Exterior Authenticity

An additional deduction for appearance may be appropriate

Any One Head (high or low beam) or Tail light Inoperative -2 ea.
License Plate Light Inoperative -1 ea.
Parking Lights -1 ea.
Dimly Lit Head, Tail, License -1 ea.
Broken Lens -1 ea.
Dull Reflector or chrome reflector .-1 ea.
Appearance (w/o plating) -1 ea. max. -4

Brakes - Hand and Pedal operation

CAR IS AUTOMATICALLY DISQUALIFIED FROM JUDGING FOR NON-AUTHENTIC BRAKING SYSTEM. EXCEPTION: CLASSICS ORIGINALLY EQUIPPED WITH 2-WHEEL BRAKES MAY BE CONVERTED TO 4-WHEEL BRAKES IF DONE IN KEEPING WITH ORIGINAL SYSTEM.

No Pedal Pressure -5
Excessive Pedal Travel (More than 2/3 Travel when Pushed Hard) -3
Excessive Hand Brake Travel (2/3 or More Travel) -2
No Hand Brake -3
Pedal or Hand Brake Fails to Return (Slow Return ok) -1
Hand Brake Fails to Latch -1
Brake Pedal Drags or Squeaks -1
Power Booster not Operating -2

Instruments operation and appearance

Inoperative Engine Instruments -1 ea.
Instrument Faces -1 ea.
Appearance (including plating) -1 ea.

Clocks, Radios, Power Antenna

All applicable clocks, radios and power antenna must be checked

Clocks Inoperative -1
Radio(s) System Inoperative -2
Power Antenna Inoperative -1
Appearance (including plating) -1
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Old 6th March 2008, 14:46   #41
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The following are deductions made on failure to meet the standard

LIGHTERS, HEATERS, AIR CONDITIONING, INTERCOM AND ACCESSORIES -- OPERATION AND APPEARANCE INCLUDING PLATING

LIGHTERS ARE NOT TO BE OPERATED OR TESTED.

All applicable fans, heater & air conditioning blowers, intercom systems & accessories must be checked.

Accessories must be in good taste and available in the year the car was built.

Missing Cigar Lighters -1 ea.
Inoperative Heater System -2
Inoperative Air Conditioning System -2
Inoperative Intercom System -2
Miscellaneous Interior Accessories -1
Exterior Mirrors -1
General Appearance Poor-any of above -1
Plating on any of the above -1


WINDOWS AND CONVERTIBLE TOP -- OPERATION ONLY

Inoperative Window Mechanism -1ea.
Inoperative Power Top Mechanism -3
Inoperative Manual Top Mechanism -2

COOLING SYSTEM

RADIATOR CAP IS NOT TO BE REMOVED.

Modern stainless steel hose clamps. Deduct under Authenticity Category

Evidence of Rusty Or Dirty Water -1
Evidence of Overheating Or Clogged Radiator -2
Poor condition and/or leaking overflow tank -1
Cracked or Deteriorated Hoses -1
Leaking Water Pump -1 to -2
Leaking Water Connections -1
Leaking Radiator -1 to -2
Rusty or Deteriorated Hose Clamps -1
Rusty, dented, torn, etc. components for Air Cooled Engines -1 to -5
Noisy operation -1
Shutter operation -1

EXHAUST SYSTEM EXCEPT MANIFOLDS -- LEAKS, NOISE AND APPEARANCE

FLEXIBLE TUBING if not used originally. Deduct under Authenticity Category

Minor Muffler Leaks -1
Rusted Muffler with Audible Leak -3
Rusted or Leaking Tail Pipe -2
Noisy Exhaust, If Out of Keeping for Type of Car -1
Exhaust cutout not working (if originally so equipped) -1 Polished Stainless Components -1

ENGINE INCLUDING MANIFOLDS -- Leaks and Appearance including Plating

Non-authentic air conditioning and/or power steering are deducted under each under Authenticity Category

An additional deduction for appearance may be appropriate

Wrong year engine and/or components are Authenticity deductions (Incorrect era engine, type or make is an automatic disqualification.)

Cracked or Missing Porcelain on Exhaust Manifold -1
Exhaust Manifold Leak -1
Minor Oil Leaks -1
Major Oil Leaks -3
Gasoline Leak -3
Water leaks - deduct under cooling system Category

ENGINE ROOM AND SPLASH PANS - Appearance including Plating

Sheet Metal Condition -1
Extra Holes in Firewall, Inner Panels, Splash Pans -1
Chipped, Cracked or Faded Paint -1
Poor Plating -1
Rust or Corrosion -1
Dirt, Oil and Grease Accumulation -1 to-2
Splash Pans Missing -2
Splash Pan Dented, Rusted, etc. -1

UNDERCARRIAGE

Chipped, Cracked Paint -1
Rust Or Corrosion (Except Exhaust System) -1
Accumulated Dirt and Mud -1 to -2
Missing or Torn Rubber or Leather Boots Where Applicable -1
Missing Spring Covers where Applicable -1
Damaged or Modified Frame -1

Collectively, the frame, axle housings, springs, drive train, drums, steering components, floorboards, gas tank are considered the undercarriage. (It does not include the engine.) 2. Classics that have a Bijur oiling system will have oil "leaks" at each point of lubrication. No deduction for recent oiling.


WIRING

Plastic wire or plastic insulated crimp-on connectors, deduct under Exterior Authenticity Category

An additional deduction for appearance may be appropriate

Wiring Not Safely Installed -1
Corroded Terminals -1
Wires Installed Without Terminals -1
Wiring Not Properly Supported Where Passing Through Metal Holes or Over Sharp Metal Edges -2
Cracked or Frayed Insulation -3
Bare Wiring Showing -4
Loose wire ends -2

Wiring under the dash can be checked by one judge and the information conveyed to the other judges. No deduction for wire numbers left on new wiring under the dash.


DASH, STEERING WHEEL AND PEDALS

Damaged Finish on Dashboard -1
Plating on Dashboard items -1
Control Knobs or Handles Defaced or Missing; Must Match -1
Steering Wheel Assembly -1
All Pedal Pads, or Pedals Themselves -1

AUTHENTICITY - ENGINE AND CHASSIS - APPEARANCE

Painted or Porcelain Manifolds where originally bare -1
Manifolds not Porcelain when they should be -1
Wrong color or texture on components -1
Polished Stainless Exhaust components -1
Miscellaneous Appearance Calls -1


AUTHENTICITY - ENGINE AND CHASSIS - COMPONENTS

Power Steering -5
Air Conditioning (unless factory) -5
Modern Stainless Steel Hose Clamps -2
Modern Plastic Wire or Plastic Insulated Crimp-on Connectors -2
Wrong year engine and/or components including "speed" equipment -1 to -5
Flexible Exhaust Pipe Where Not Original Equipment -2
Brake Booster added where not originally offered -1 to -5
Universal Type Convoluted `Radiator Hoses -2
Wrong Voltage Battery -3

NOTE: There will be no deduction for an electric fuel pump, provided that the installation is in an inconspicuous place and the work done in a workmanlike manner. Further, the exhibitor is not allowed to use the electric fuel pump during judging or 2 points should be deducted

INTERIOR TRIM, HARDWARE AND WINDOW FRAMES INCLUDING PLATING

Wood Trim -1
Wood Graining -1
Hardware -1
Plating -1
Interior Mirrors -1

Plating. This includes window frames, handles, etc. Note: Handles would not warrant a one point deduction for each one with a problem. Chrome plating is acceptable in place of other types of plating (no deduction).

Also includes plating of wiper motor(s) if mounted in the interior of the car.

This would include the glass, "silver" reflector condition and the exterior finish

FLOOR COVERING AND SILL PLATES

Deduction for use of synthetic material (unless correct) Deduct under Authenticity Category

An additional deduction for appearance may be appropriate

Door Sill Plates -1 ea.
Crooked or Poorly Sewn Seams -1
Cuts or Tears -1 to -2
Unfinished Carpet Edge -2
Moth Holes and Stains -1 to -2

Unfinished Carpet Edge. Note: Not all carpets were bound. Some, like "moss tread" had rolled edges which are considered as bound. What is spoken to here is carpet exhibiting raw edges, as cut, without binding.

UPHOLSTERY -- SEATS INCLUDING RUMBLE SEAT CUSHIONS

Deduction for use of synthetic material (unless correct)under Authenticity Category

An additional deduction for appearance may be appropriate

Scuffing of Leather -1
Dye Worn Off of Leather -1
Worn Material, Cuts or Tears -1 to -2
Buttons Missing -1
Moth Holes and Stains -1 to -2
Crooked or Poorly Sewn Seams or sewn designs -1
Slip-On Seat Covers -5
Clear Slip-On Seat Covers .-2

UPHOLSTERY -- SIDES, HEADLINER, INSIDE OF CONVERTIBLE TOP, TOP WELL AND INTERIOR OF RUMBLE SEAT AREA w/o seat cushions

Deduction for use of synthetic material (unless correct)
under Authenticity Category

An additional deduction for appearance may be appropriate

Scuffing of Leather -1
Dye Worn Off of Leather -1
Worn Material, Cuts or Tears -1 to -2
Buttons Missing -1
Moth Holes and Stains -1 to -2
Crooked or Poorly Sewn Seams -1
Inside of Convertible Top -1 to -2
Top bows and Mechanism -2
Interior of Top well -1
Interior of Rumble Seat Compartment -1 to -2


Crooked or Poorly Sewn Seams. Stitching should be uniform. Flat seams should maintain same distance between rows of stitching. Includes stitching that creates a design on a panel.

Inside of Convertible Top. Includes inside of top, top liner, covering on bows, and top pads.

Top Bows and Mechanism. Includes condition of top bows, side rails and all mechanism including plating.
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Old 6th March 2008, 15:41   #42
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The following are deductions made on failure to meet the standard

WEATHER STRIPPING, WELTING, RUBBER, AND RUNNING BOARD COVER

Weather stripping -1 to -2
Welting -1 to -2
Running Board Cover Material -1 to -2

GLASS AND/OR SIDE CURTAINS, TOP BOOT

CAR IS AUTOMATICALLY DISQUALIFIED FROM JUDGING IF NOT EQUIPPED WITH SAFETY GLASS IN ALL WINDOWS. NOTE: SEE EXCEPTIONS BELOW

Tinted Glass if normally not factory equipment. Deduct under Exterior Authenticity Category

Synthetic Material to Replace Fabric Portion of Side Curtains - Deduct under Exterior Authenticity Category

Minor Cracks Or Chips -1
Large Crack -2
Discolored -2
Torn Or Stained Side Curtains -2
Missing Side Curtain -2
Side Curtains All Missing -3
Top Boot Missing (if Std. equipment) -2
Top Boot in Poor Condition (only if std equipment) -1

NOTE: Disqualify the car from judging if not equipped with safety glass in all windshield, side vent windows, and most rear windows. Safety glass is of three types: laminated, tempered and wired. Exceptions -- Interior glass and Beveled rear window and wind wing glass need not be safety glass if not so originally equipped (unless otherwise required by any state or other regulatory agency.)


CONVERTIBLE TOP, SOFT TOP, "INSERT TOP", PADDED TOP OR METAL ROOF - BELTLINE UP INCLUDING TRIM, PAINT AND CONDITION OF SHEET METAL

Deduction for modern plastic material on convertible tops, except as allowed. Deduct under Authenticity Category

An additional deduction for appearance may be appropriate

Stains -1
Cuts, Tears or Chipping -1 to -2
Sags or Wrinkles Not Consistent with Usage -1
Missing Top for Driver's Compartment of Town Car -2
Paint Condition Problems -1
Sheet Metal Condition -1

Notes: 1. If car has all metal top, it is scored in this Category 2. Modern, correct looking, vinyl material is acceptable to replace leather on large closed cars (large enough hides are no longer available for these) and selected open cars 3. If exhibitor does not raise top, deduct 5 points in this Category 4. Top boot is covered in Category #26



PAINT -- FENDERS, HOOD, RUNNING BOARDS, AND RELATED PANELS

PAINT -- BODY, DOORS, AND DECKLID, ETC. EXCEPT ROOF

Scratches or Chips -1 to -2
Orange Peel -1
Fading .-1
Rubbed Through -1
Lack of Color Uniformity -1
Checking or Cracking -1 to -2
Defects in Application of Paint -1 to -2

NOTES:1. No deductions for choice of color, even though improper colors and color schemes are discouraged 2. No deductions for metallic on Classics manufactured after November 1927.

NOTE: NO DEDUCTIONS FOR DAMAGE SUSTAINED WHILE CAR WAS EN ROUTE TO, OR AT THE MEET.


SHEET METAL CONDITION -- FENDERS, HOOD, AND RELATED PANELS

SHEET METAL CONDITION -- BODY, DOORS, RUNNING BOARDS, AND DECKLID

NOTE: NO DEDUCTIONS FOR DAMAGE SUSTAINED WHILE CAR WAS EN ROUTE TO, OR AT THE MEET.

Dents -1 to -2
Rust - Light Surface -1
Rust - Penetrating -2
Metal Cracks -1 to -2
Wavy Panels -1 to -2
Rotted or Broken Wood Members -2
Running Boards -1 to -2

FIT -- FENDERS, HOOD, RUNNING BOARDS, AND RELATED PANELS

Fit, Hood to Cowl -1
Gap, Grille to Hood and Fenders -1
Fit, Hood Doors -1
Running Boards Fit and Alignment -1 to -2

PLATING -- FORWARD OF COWL (EXCEPT WHEELS AND BUMPERS)

PLATING -- BUMPERS INCLUDING CONDITION, FIT AND ALIGNMENT

PLATING -- BALANCE OF EXTERIOR (EXCEPT WHEELS AND BUMPERS)

Scratched, Pitted Or Peeling . -1 to -2
Rusted -1 to -2
Blistered . -1 to -2
Worn Through -1 to -2
Nickel Showing In Concave Area -1
Alignment and fit of bumpers -1

NOTES:1. No deduction will be made when chrome is substituted for nickel 2. No deduction to be made in this Category for overplating. See Authenticity 3. Some Classics had the backside of the bumpers painted.

FIT -- DOORS AND DECKLID (RUMBLE AND TRUNK)(INCLUDES ALL EXTERIOR DOORS EXCEPT HOOD DOORS)

Gap, doors to body -1
Doors drop when open -1
Doors in/out -1
Uneven Gap -1
Lid in/out . -1

WHEELS INCLUDING PAINT, PLATING AND HUBCAPS (BUT NOT TIRES)

Paint Chipped, Scratched, etc. -1
Plating of Wheel Itself (if applicable) -1
Plating and Condition of Hubcap -1
Emblem Condition -1

TIRES -- CONDITION AND APPEARANCE

Heavy Tread Wear but Tread depth is 1/16" to 3/16" -2
Less than 1/16" -3
Cupping or Uneven Wear -2
Hairline Cracks or Small Non-hazardous Cut -1
Serious Cuts, Lumps, Bumps, Blisters or Cord Showing -5
Breaks in Tread Grooves (but not in the cord) -2

NOTES:1. No deductions for blackwalls or whitewalls or the aesthetic appearance per se 2. No deductions in this Category for wrong size, mixed brands, designs or colour. See authenticity 3. Judge all exposed tires including spares unless they are covered or in the trunk 4. Rubber and metal valve stems may be used in tubes for Classic tires. However, all five (or six) wheels should have the same type. If not, deduct under Authenticity Category

DEGREE OF AUTHENTICITY OF RESTORATION -- EXTERIOR INCLUDING LIGHTS AND TIRE SIZE

Sealed Beam Headlights, if Not Factory Equipment -2
Directional Signals if Modern or Commercial in Design -2
Modern Plastic Material on Convertible Tops (Except as Allowed) -2

Note: An additional deduction for appearance may be appropriate.

Wrong Type of Head, Park, Tail, etc., Light Lenses -1
Tinted Glass if not factory equipped -2
Plastic Material to Replace Fabric in Side Curtains -2
Improper Accessory -1
Overplating -1
Phillips Head Screws on Automobiles Prior to 1936 -1
Miscellaneous Appearance Calls -1
Truck Tires -3
Radial Tires -3
Tire Size Incorrect, including mismatched sizes -2 to -4
Tire Size - later replacement size -2
Tire - Mixed Brands -2
Mismatched Tube Stems -1
Valve Stem caps -1

NOTES: 1.No deductions unless judge is absolutely sure. The Classic and the exhibitor are always given the benefit of any doubt 2. No deduction will be made when chrome is substituted for nickel 3. No deductions for choice of body color 4. No deductions for rubber or metal valve stems. However, all five (or six) wheels should have the same type.



DEGREE OF AUTHENTICITY OF RESTORATION -- INTERIOR

Synthetic Materials Used for Upholstery (Including Carpets) -2 (unless car was originally so equipped)

Note: An additional deduction for appearance may be appropriate.

Improper Accessory or Instrument -1
Overplating -1
Phillips Head Screws on Automobiles Prior to 1936 -1
Lack of Woodgraining or incorrect grain -1 to -3 max.
Miscellaneous Appearance Calls -1

NOTES: 1.No deductions unless judge is absolutely sure. The Classic and the exhibitor are always given the benefit of any doubt 2. No deduction will be made when chrome is substituted for nickel
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Old 6th March 2008, 16:01   #43
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Apart from the elements that constitute a comprehensive coverage of key standards that may be followed during restorations, the following may also be kept in mind

ITEMS THAT AUTOMATICALLY DISQUALIFY A CLASSIC

Non-safety glass in exterior windows.

Non-authentic braking system.Exceptions: The conversion of a Classic from two to four wheel brakes is allowed if the added brakes are of the same type and system as the original equipment (no deduction). The addition of a booster to an otherwise authentic system is an authenticity deduction

Non-authentic automatic transmission.

Non-authentic engine.

Replica body

Finally an extremely relevant point to note is that restoration of automobiles to these standards does not imply they are never driven. Apparently nomal tyre wear (specs mentioned later) and normal wear on porcelainised exhausts do not add up for deductions.

The standards if followed to the T would enable a restorer to compete at a Concours and stand a strong chance of winning.

If winning at concours is not a criteria then perhaps this standard will atleast ensure a restoration to an impeccable standard, which an owner may value as being authentic and doing justice to his prized possession

Hope this info will be useful.

Once again the primary source of the data presented here is drawn from the Judging Manual of the Classic Car Club of America.

Enjoy!!!
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Old 12th February 2009, 20:37   #44
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Originally Posted by DKG View Post
I was reading some interesting posts on a debate elsewhere at Team-BHP about what a restoration should be. I think it deserves a debate on its own and hence a dedicated thread.

Lets start the discussion with a thought.

My personal view is that a vintage car is more like a painting. So much of the creator's vision, his personality, his character gets reflected in the automobile he created. This explains why no two marques are similar and every automobile manufactured reflects an individual character.

This implies that many years later when an owner embarks on the project of restoring a vintage or classic automobile he must always strive to achieve what the original creator intended. The colours, the mechanicals, the interiors, everything gets dictated by what the creator intended for the marque. After all its his creation.

Deviation on this is about as absurd as someone taking a Picasso and painting it different colours or changing the vista itself as he wants to

The big question though is do all vintage and classic cars in existence require such attention to detail and must go through such a restoration? The answer in my opinion is NO.

Authentic restoration, or returning an automobile to a state like when it was brand new is an extremely expensive, time consuming affair and calls for phenomenal research, quality parts, expert workmanship with an eye for unstinting detailing. Today such a restoration to say the least will run into several lakhs.

On cars produced for the masses I feel the authentic restoration attempt must be applied only if the car is complete and not missing much by way of trim and mechanicals. If the car is a rust bucket totally vandalised its insane to try to source parts and complete the job authentically.

In the US such cars get classed as parts cars and rarely subjected to a restoration.

However when you come to the exclusive luxury or rare breeds of cars they certainly require a full restoration.

An interesting question asked by a fellow memeber here was should one stop a restoration if the correct part is not available.

Here again I feel if its one of the expensive/rarer breed of cars it does deserve your patience and time and effort to source the correct part. Please don't modify the component rendering it permanently altered.

Not being able to afford the money or the time to source correct parts is no excuse for alterations of an automobile. The car is better off sitting on stilts till you can afford it.

Recently when I visited a vast collection of cars on display in a museum in western India I was horrified to see scores of rare and expensive marques totally messed up in the name of restoration. I had the eerie feeling the owner in the name of artistic license had actually damaged them permanently by redoing some bodies, not to mention the horrendous colours used and the shoddy workmanship.

It was a sad sight and I came away appalled at the man's audacity to tamper with such a rich heritage.


Karl, thanks for letting me know about this threat that I had missed.

I've been reading through all the comments and find it exhilarating to find such dedicated, passionate and concerned enthusiast struggling with these issues that all of us share through out the world.

"Through the clash of differing opinions comes the spark of truth" and where "Offense should not be given or taken"; this is the spirit of Consultation which we should strive for!

India has its own uniqueness and to find the right expression, we must explore what is happening elsewhere and then through venues such as this develop an appropriate set of "Judging Guide Lines" that is relevant to what is happening here. In N.A. we have been living cars since their beginning with Car Clubs to suit everyone. Here with the recent influx of so many cars it will be a while before the appreciation of the older models will develop.

The BOTTOM LINE is to encourage as many people as possible to cherish and enjoy our automobile heritage, from those whose pockets are shallow, like Pickloo Das in Guwahati who has saved so many cars and bikes for prosperity at considerable sacrifice and his dream of opening a museum to the big collectors who have the resources to acquire and restore them to world concours standards and admire their trophies. While they both share the same passion, they live in different worlds.

One of my greatest pleasures has been being a judge at The Statesman Rallies where these two worlds come together, a few cars worthy of any Concourse be it in America or anywhere else, to the daily drivers dusty and dirty, fresh of the streets, but nevertheless are all One in their love for their cars.

What has amazed me is with relatively primitive facilities, equipment and tradesmen I have seen some cars that would be welcome at the best of the Worlds Concours. The worlds largest vintage and classic publication Hemmings Motor News published an article on The Statesman Rally that can be found googling "hemmings motor news calcutta concours". It's worth a read to help put what's happening here into a World perspective.

My wife and I have a 1968 Jaguar MK11-340 that we been competing with these past 30 years in the Jaguar Clubs of North America, JCNA Concours where they have a "Driven Class" with the cars being marked out 100 pts and a "Championship Class" where the cars are marked out of 1000 pts. They introduced a "Preservation Class 18" a few years back to encourage owners who had cars in good original condition to keep the cars "as is."
In 2002 we placed 4th in Championship Class #9 with 99.54 pts and 2nd in Preservation Class #18 with 99.78 pts. I would suggest you check out their web-site "JCNA" and you should be able to down load their scoring forms. I will double check it and if I can't find it I will contact them to email me the forms.

I am pleased to see you have taken the "First Step" in establishing Judging Guidelines that hopefully can of use throughout India. Proper Guidelines are the first step, the other is finding the right Judges!

I will make sure that I check this tread out regularly and I appreciate all the thought and consideration being given by the Team Members.
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Old 12th February 2009, 22:22   #45
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John as you may have gleaned through the posts the real intention is to improve the sport through standards, as has been followed to brilliant results elsewhere in the world.

My friends here in Hyderabad seem to agree that we could slowly introduce the rating system so there is not just some system to judging but one that will help owners improve their cars over the years.
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