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Old 10th March 2012, 09:59   #61
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Default Judging Score Sheets & Guidelines

There have been many comments over the past few years that I have been a member of Team BHP concerning the need for more open and detailed Judging at various Concours and Rally events through out India.

Having been a judge at the Calcutta Statesman Rally and having competed successfully in many JCNA, (Jaguar Clubs of North America) I am hoping to post the Judging Guidelines for both these events once I can reduce their size for posting on this dedicated Thread.

Until then, if any one would like a copy, please contact me and I will forward them to you.

I've noticed some postings on this subject on various Threads and would ask that this information be posted again on this Thread so we can develop a reference from which to create a Standard Guideline and Scoring information for use.

This will take some considered thought and time, but with such dedicated and resourceful members, I'm sure that our efforts will be rewarded and appreciated.

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Old 10th March 2012, 15:02   #62
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Originally Posted by john a milne View Post
There have been many comments over the past few years that I have been a member of Team BHP concerning the need for more open and detailed Judging at various Concours and Rally events through out India.....
Hi John,

I would like to thank you for your efforts, but this is not the problem. Everyone knows judging rules, I read pages of them at Mumbai about how Cadillac and LaSalle clubs go about it. The problems lies with the intentions of the organisers, and transparancy has to do with informing all about judging, venue, judges, dates and times. In the recent Mumbai event we had a judge of integrity, he did not judge a car which he restored. But the owner was so hungry for a prize that another judge was called on Sunday, air fare paid, and he awarded the car with the postwar concourse d'elegance.

Not many know about this, this was done at the instance of the young owner who insisted on this extra judicial judging. Effectively the participants and the public were taken for a ride. This was blatent highhandedness, and devalued the work of participants and the judge. Now when such practices are going on, no manual can help here as no manual says "Do not cheat".

The VCCCI awards tend to become of utter insignificance due to these practices, few are even aware who has won what prize for which category. And not many really care.

No Cheers harit
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Old 10th March 2012, 16:29   #63
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Default Re: Creating Guidelines for Judging at our Vintage and Classic Concours

Till now i thought i was one of the only few people who had heard of this Rumor but i guess i am not the only one and if theres so much smoke there ought to be a fire somewhere. What you have bought to our notice is nothing short of preposterous Harit. Im even appalled that such a last minute Judge was included, accepted and even judged for the event. Well, if this has happened, then its shameful and one must be careful the next time.

Leaving malpractices aside and owing to the fact that this unpleasant story has got out, will only make the organizers more watertight with their judging requirements and norms in the coming years. Remember,its always the doing of a few people, the organization and all those who are part of such organizations are sometimes, not even aware of these things.

I look forward to the more such events with great gusto, if not for judging norms, at least for the quality and pedigree of cars showcased therein.
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Old 10th March 2012, 17:24   #64
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Default Re: Creating Guidelines for Judging at our Vintage and Classic Concours

Personally speaking, I feel judging creates more ill will than good will. The losers are never happy about the results and there is always the feeling "that the judging could have been better". We enjoy our cars. To us,these are priceless possessions. We are proud of them. Just showcase them now & then to the public & enjoy the adulations received. No judging No prizes. Leave it at that. This is my opinion & has nothing to do with what happened at Mumbai.
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Old 10th March 2012, 18:08   #65
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Default Re: Creating Guidelines for Judging at our Vintage and Classic Concours

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.... We enjoy our cars. To us,these are priceless possessions. We are proud of them. Just showcase them now & then to the public & enjoy the adulations received. No judging No prizes. Leave it at that. This is my opinion & has nothing to do with what happened at Mumbai.
I fully agree with you, and have suggested this to Nitin Dossa when a few enthusiasts had gathered at the condolence meet for Pranlal at WIAA. We suggested that all participants be given a memento. Any left over memento's can be taken home by those prize hungry officials and claim them to be awards.

Also, no need to have a rally where the route is "secret" and so public will not be aware as to where to stand and watch the cars go by. The most successful, enjoyable and 'having most public response seen' at a rally which I ever participated in was a few years ago in Pune, thousands of spectators stood and cheered the cars, giving us participants a high. VCCCI sacrifices this public participation for their selfish interests.

Unfortunately these ideas were rejected. Probably because the organisers would lose some imaginary power. Today judges are a bit strict and don't allow much fooling around with their decisions, but the "rally" results can be fine tuned, and special prizes can be awarded like resurrection which no one can really challenge. Just tell the public that your car was a junk, and what they now see is a resurrection.I don't want to say that the rally results were manipulated this time, but I have once won a prize which was questionable.

So you see, sincerity and integrity should be a part of organising an event to give a benefit to all, the participants, the organisers and the general public. The events should be shared by all, not hogged by the organisers. And then we can read judging manuals.

Again no Cheers harit

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Old 10th March 2012, 18:50   #66
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Default Re: Creating Guidelines for Judging at our Vintage and Classic Concours

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Originally Posted by john a milne View Post
I've noticed some postings on this subject on various Threads and would ask that this information be posted again on this Thread so we can develop a reference from which to create a Standard Guideline and Scoring information for use.
Here is the link to Plymouth Owner's Club Judging guidelines

Judging Guides

Cheers

KPS
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File Type: doc PLY Awards.doc (38.0 KB, 171 views)

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Old 10th March 2012, 20:47   #67
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Default Re: Judging Score Sheets & Guidelines

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Originally Posted by harit View Post
....But the owner was so hungry for a prize that another judge was called on Sunday, air fare paid, and he awarded the car with the postwar concourse d'elegance.

Not many know about this, this was done at the instance of the young owner who insisted on this extra judicial judging.
Sorry guys, but that is completely out of line - let us please not get into personal attacks. This is a thread on how to correctly judge a car, let us stick to that. This is not for discussion of mismanagement of any event.


Thanks for your understanding.
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Old 11th March 2012, 23:18   #68
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Default Re: Creating Guidelines for Judging at our Vintage and Classic Concours

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Here is the link to Plymouth Owner's Club Judging guidelines

Cheers

KPS
Thanks for this useful piece of judging format. I went through it in detail and the guidelines are clear and very specific. But the thing is that these guidelines are only for 1 marque an their sister marques so the rules can be made so specific. Now in the Statesman Rally in Kolkata and any other rally in India, there are so many marques that the judging guidelines cannot be so specific.

However, the Kolkata rally always gives out a sheet with general guidelines in advance, with the no. of points to be awarded in each criteria eg.authencity, coachwork and maintenance.

What would possibly improve the judging is if a knowledgeable person (and there are many on this forum that qualify) could be brought in from another town as a judge and see the cars for the first time, with no prior relation whatsoever of the owners of the cars. I think this would satisfy a lot of owners, even if they don't win anything.

Now Karl, I don't mean this as an attack on anyone, but I should mention that adkol's Citroen was not looked at for more than a minute by 2 judges and the other set was happy to sign the score card without seeing anything about the car. This after I went to the top judge who said he'll see the car in detail. As it happened, he didn't see it at all because he was "very busy" with other cars.

Everyone can't win awards, but to not have your car even looked at by judges is sad. The Plymouth guidelines are a eye opener for me, thanks KPS.

Best Regards
mbz180
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Old 12th March 2012, 11:36   #69
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Default Re: Creating Guidelines for Judging at our Vintage and Classic Concours

Harit, are you sure? The reason I ask is because both the Ruia Rolls and Lancia according to young Ruia himself were not brought for judging, and on sunday morning not only did they come a bit late,being interested in the resto of the rolls I was minutely inspecting the car to get a few pointers and no one came forward to judge the car . I left soon after she moved for the line up prior to flag off.I am not privy to the official winners list, but one paper has reported that the Rolls in question won the concours and the Lancia for being the best maintained.Both not having been judged as they were restored by this years judge. What mbz180 said they do in calcutta makes sense. Give each entrant a list of judging criteria . Of course the best would be no judging, only participating and having fun.
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Old 19th March 2012, 20:12   #70
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Default Re: Creating Guidelines for Judging at our Vintage and Classic Concours

Having read this thread quickly, one thought springs to my mind.

Regardless of how a "concours" car is defined or what it is meant to be, the fact is that a concours ready car, let alone a concours winning car is in near perfect mechanical and cosmetic order. Needless to say that there are various classes and categories and therefore "originality" is not the be all and end all.

With respect to all the owners in India, I have yet to see a car that I believe would satisfy an international judge at something like Pebble Beach, etc. The pictures I have seen of the Cartier events do not serve to change my mind. The fact that the event was described as a concours and not a car show, was misleading in my opinion.

The vintage car movement here, and indeed the quality of the restorations performed here are still in their infancy. I have seen a number of cars that have been touted as being the pinnacle of the process and in a condition that would merit a showing at a concours, but I personally think they are not of that standard or the standard I continually see abroad. This applies not least of all to the chrome work I have seen.

I think the word "concours" is bandied about quite lightly on this forum upon occassion.

This is entirely my own opinion and is not meant to cause any offence to anyone.
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Old 23rd March 2012, 21:24   #71
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Default Re: Creating Guidelines for Judging at our Vintage and Classic Concours

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Having read this thread quickly, one thought springs to my mind.

Regardless of how a "concours" car is defined or what it is meant to be, the fact is that a concours ready car, let alone a concours winning car is in near perfect mechanical and cosmetic order. Needless to say that there are various classes and categories and therefore "originality" is not the be all and end all.

With respect to all the owners in India, I have yet to see a car that I believe would satisfy an international judge at something like Pebble Beach, etc. The pictures I have seen of the Cartier events do not serve to change my mind. The fact that the event was described as a concours and not a car show, was misleading in my opinion..

The vintage car movement here, and indeed the quality of the restorations performed here are still in their infancy. I have seen a number of cars that have been touted as being the pinnacle of the process and in a condition that would merit a showing at a concours, but I personally think they are not of that standard or the standard I continually see abroad. This applies not least of all to the chrome work I have seen.

I think the word "concours" is bandied about quite lightly on this forum upon occassion.

This is entirely my own opinion and is not meant to cause any offence to anyone.
I think one should keep in mind the limitations that we have when restoring a car. First is the budget itself.One can spend even 10 million for restoration. It depends on how deep the pockets are. Second is the chrome work. All these platers in India are small units & hence do not obtain Pollution Control clearance. Hence they are never in a position to follow the right process.As against this,Platers abroad have Pollution control systems & customers pay for the costs. Here in India, many will not be prepared to pay this high cost if Pollution control costs were to be included. Thirdly, we do not have access to several minor items.Finally it is the Customs Law which prohibits used items & high duties as well.One should compare Apples to Apples. If we had the same conditions, we could have turned out cars as good as the ones abroad;if not even better
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Old 24th March 2012, 18:07   #72
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Default Re: Creating Guidelines for Judging at our Vintage and Classic Concours

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Sorry guys, but that is completely out of line - let us please not get into personal attacks. This is a thread on how to correctly judge a car, let us stick to that. This is not for discussion of mismanagement of any event. Thanks for your understanding.
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Originally Posted by john a milne View Post
There have been many comments over the past few years that I have been a member of Team BHP concerning the need for more open and detailed Judging at various Concours and Rally events through out India...............

.
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Hi John,..........The problems lies with the intentions of the organisers, and transparancy No Cheers harit
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........... both the Ruia Rolls and Lancia according to young Ruia himself were not brought for judging, .
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Originally Posted by Faster789 View Post
........, the fact is that a concours ready car, let alone a concours winning car is in near perfect mechanical and cosmetic order....
We are to talk about judging, but there basically has to be a well organised transparent event where one judges cars.

Below are photos of a Silver Wraith which won a concourse in Jaipur. The judges were all men of integrity, two are on tbhp, how could they give this car such a prize? Look at the alignment of the door handles, look at the rear glass rubber, maybe the car should have been in the preservation class, so old was the rubber, cracked and all. Then check the door gaps and alignment. I believe that the paint on the bonnet sides was also faded. In such a case the judges should have declared that there is no suitable car for this category. I did discuss this with some judge, the reply was that the prizes were there to be given and had to be given away, irrespective. So one can comment that if there is no suitable candidate, then the trophy goes home unawarded. I was told that during the last VCCCI event, there were extra prizes for two wheeler categories left over because there were not enough competitors. So they had to take them home, could not adjust with some car.

About comments on the prizes awarded during the VCCCI event, I beg to differ, I did not get into a personal attack, and I have not used the word mismanagement. At the prize distribution ceremony Nitin Dossa clearly announced that the Rolls was not judged by Sanjay Ghosh, the official judge, then who did, and how did that happen. The sequence of events in judging leading to top prize for a non-judged car left the sincere participants bewildered, and I just explained for them the VCCCI system, it is all about the intricacies of judging, which is complex, was a part of the event and of this thread. If I have said something that did not happen, please let me know, I would improve my research and put up corrections.

Faster789's comments on concourse can be seen in the pics below, but for sure we are improving, restorations are getting better and better. I still hope for fairness at all events, that will surelycome about.

Cheers harit
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Old 26th March 2012, 14:57   #73
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Default Re: Creating Guidelines for Judging at our Vintage and Classic Concours

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The sequence of events in judging leading to top prize for a non-judged car left the sincere participants bewildered, and I just explained for them the VCCCI system, it is all about the intricacies of judging, which is complex, was a part of the event and of this thread. If I have said something that did not happen, please let me know, I would improve my research and put up corrections.

Faster789's comments on concourse can be seen in the pics below, but for sure we are improving, restorations are getting better and better. I still hope for fairness at all events, that will surelycome about.

Cheers harit
I don't want to get into any controversy, but it is a fact that after the normal judging, a 'special' judge was flown in to judge only the RR who awarded the trophy to the car.


Faster789, with due respect to you, I agree and disagree. Yes, you can say that Indian standards are not upto International resto standards. But remember, atleast in the US, most of the cars are in good condition to start with because:

1) The roads are great

2) The weather in most states treat the car well

3) New spares are a plenty at reasonable prices, manufactured either in Europe or in the US and it's cheap to import.

4) And most importantly you have several types specialized equipment for restoration that we don't have here.

With our restrictive import laws, duties and basic facilities and the sometimes horrible condition of the cars that are restored, I think we do a damn good job, not concourse, but good nonetheless.

mbz180

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Old 26th March 2012, 15:22   #74
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Default Re: Creating Guidelines for Judging at our Vintage and Classic Concours

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Originally Posted by mbz180 View Post
Faster789, with due respect to you, I agree and disagree. Yes, you can say that Indian standards are not upto International resto standards. But remember, atleast in the US, most of the cars are in good condition to start with because:

1) The roads are great

2) The weather in most states treat the car well

3) New spares are a plenty at reasonable prices, manufactured either in Europe or in the US and it's cheap to import.

4) And most importantly you have several types specialized equipment for restoration that we don't have here.

With our restrictive import laws, duties and basic facilities and the sometimes horrible condition of the cars that are restored, I think we do a damn good job, not concourse, but good nonetheless.

mbz180
Hi MBZ

I do take your points on board, but they are mitigating factors only and do not change the fact. Turning to your points above.

1. The roads are far superior, but a true concours car sees about as much mileage as a snail in a calendar year. Jokes aside, the cars I know probably see less. They are trailered to events, unless some events (rightly in my view) require them to be driven and prepared there if necessary.

2. In central India, the dry climate is the best for storing cars. The only areas where there are issues are in the coastal regions which I why I moved my cars inland many, many years ago.

3. The price of spares abroad is many things, but I'd contend that for many a pretige marque, "reasonable" is not something that always come to mind. I have certainly felt that pain myself!

4. Absolutely right. But we also lack the knowledge that comes from experience. Reading manuals, etc is well and good but nothing can count for experience. The "big names" in restoring in India have not been restoring cars for that long (to this standard) and furthermore, they see something like a top quality Rolls or Benz one or twice in a career, not consistently as is the case abroad.

At the end of the day, my post was not meant as a criticism. It is good to see the movement growing.

My point is that in typical style, owners and organisers are only too happy to pat themselves on the back and say what a wonderful job they have done. The movement here is growing and the cars have a long way to go before they can be described as "concours". I'll stand by what I have said that I have not seen a single car that I would describe as "concours" in India. However, I am confident that this will change sooner rather than later.

Motorshows abound and prizes can be given out for all kind of categories like best car in show, best restoration, crowd favourite, judge's favourite, etc. This removes the term concours and takes the focus off condition and focusses it on the CAR, which is what the movement needs.

If you call a zircon a diamond, then the diamond loses it value. By calling a good/nice car "concours", you do two things in my opinion - (1) you lower the standard required for achievement and (2) you open yourself to ridicule from the more established events.

It is important to walk before you run.
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Old 26th March 2012, 16:16   #75
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Default Re: Creating Guidelines for Judging at our Vintage and Classic Concours

Hi Faster, I didn't consider your post as criticism. You raised a valid point. I was just trying to say that the platforms are not really level for comparison. All your points are true. I haven't seen all that many cars in India, but out of all of those that I have, except maybe for one Jaguar XK140 which resides in Calcutta, no car in my opinion is a true concours condition car.

But we are getting there. Better research, the internet which has given access to international forums for specific marques, the increasing desire for accuracy are all part of this.

What I think we require, and it will be upto us to do it, is to organize smaller events (which need not involve any judging) regularly with focus on more interaction between owners to exchange info, share restoration processes and alongside maybe even have a technical session where those who have restored cars themselves can exchange their experience in sourcing parts, repairs, DIY maintenance etc.

This I think will eventually raise standards of restoration as owners themselves, through this kind of interaction, will strive for more accuracy and expect professional restorers to do the same.

Oh, and how about sharing details of your collection of cars with us

Regards
mbz180

Last edited by Vid6639 : 27th March 2012 at 12:40. Reason: Removing the improper quote tags.
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