Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > Vintage Cars & Classics in India


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 6th May 2008, 20:28   #76
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 928 Times
Default

Here's an interesting extract from Wikipedia that truly demonstrates Packard's legendary engineering abilities. Enjoy

"When the first of the Packard-built Merlins arrived in Britain, the engineers at Rolls-Royce stripped it down and were amazed to find the production-line built Packard engine, far from being as bad as they expected it to be for component tolerances, was actually better.[citation needed] Up until then, R-R Merlins were hand built, every face being finished off by hand, and this time-consuming process placed great strain on the production capability of the skilled workforce involved in the manufacture of these engines. The Packard engine changed many minds, although there were still some at R-R who remained unconvinced of the quality of the American engine, produced as it was by a largely unskilled and semi-skilled female workforce. In the end, the engine's performance removed any doubts about its quality and workmanship."
DKG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2008, 20:52   #77
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London UK
Posts: 700
Thanked: 125 Times
Default

OK OK DKG. Packards are the world's most wonderful creation since the wheel was invented, the sun shines from their exhaust pipes, all cars should revert to side valves and everybody should go out and buy one today
Regarding the Packard V12
Extract from “History of the 1932-1939 Packard Twelve”
“Van Ranst then left, though Paton later solved the valve problem and incorporated Cornelius's hydraulics in the production Twelve. The valve gear owed much to General Motors, being similar to that of the Oakland and Oldsmobile V-8s, and the valve silencers were adapted from the Cadillac V-16 the moment Packard got its hands on one in 1930.”

I find all pre war large cars tend to be rather truck like, the pleasantest one I have encountered was the Hispano Suiza H6B. I agree with Manwender about the 20hp Rolls being a pleasant car to drive. All things considered Packards were wonderful quality cars.
Julian UK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2008, 21:21   #78
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 928 Times
Default

You see its a case of frog in the Packard well syndrome. You must understand I am totally in love with this marque and obviously blind to the virtues of other "Best Cars in the World" Its the same with Ferraris. No one can convince me a Skyline GTR is a better option or an NSX

Jokes aside, having grown up hearing tales of RR's legendary silence in movement etc etc my only exposure to RR's was the Shadow and later a Corniche and they were a huge disappointment. I would love to believe/learn about what made these cars so special. As I have never driven a prewar RR or Bentley I am obviously not qualified to even attempt an opinion.

Ironically a few noblemen of yesteryear here in Hyderabad spent more time using their convertible Packards while their garages housed Ghosts too. Which always made me wonder. Here in India I believe the Packards cost almost as much as the RR's. Interestingly a fellow enthusiast has a lovely 1921 Ghost and when I excitedly asked him about its famed silent engine he smiled and said it had to be viewed in light of raucous clattering engines of the era

Invariably the name and its aura often gets in the way and few would make an objective evaluation, but it would be an interesting exercise all the same. Anyone for a RR, Bentley, Packard, Cadillac road test shootout? Now wouldn't that be great!

PS A bit off topic but if silence in motion was the yardstick to be applied to today's cars then there's only one car that earns it, the Lexus LS400 - period. Everything else is almost agricultural compared to the refinement levels Toyota has achieved.

Last edited by DKG : 6th May 2008 at 21:31.
DKG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2008, 22:28   #79
Team-BHP Support
 
karlosdeville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pune
Posts: 9,628
Thanked: 8,110 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
PS A bit off topic but if silence in motion was the yardstick to be applied to today's cars then there's only one car that earns it, the Lexus LS400 - period. Everything else is almost agricultural compared to the refinement levels Toyota has achieved.
Oh absolutely. I had a spin in one when she was just launched, and promptly attempted to crank a running car. I was immedeately yelled at and told to look at the RPM meter. Truly marvelous.
karlosdeville is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2008, 23:26   #80
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London UK
Posts: 700
Thanked: 125 Times
Default

Whats this all about DKG, is this for pedestrians?
Name:  No stopping.jpg
Views: 1071
Size:  120.3 KB
Julian UK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2008, 23:26   #81
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 496
Thanked: 261 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKG View Post
Interestingly a fellow enthusiast has a lovely 1921 Ghost and when I excitedly asked him about its famed silent engine he smiled and said it had to be viewed in light of raucous clattering engines of the era

PS A bit off topic but if silence in motion was the yardstick to be applied to today's cars then there's only one car that earns it, the Lexus LS400 - period. Everything else is almost agricultural compared to the refinement levels Toyota has achieved.
the quietest and the smoothest prewar car i have seen in India is the ex darbangha 25/30, BRG 1, especially when the caretaker Sharif drives it. the car seems as if its coasting with the engine off. i hate to admit it, for i don't care much for rolls royces, but its the best iv experienced.
i have even been in a Bentley MX, and like it much better because of the throttle response and the ride. in comparison, the V12 lagonda is a rocket, but, too fragile to really enjoy full throttle, but it drives like an early fifties American car, rather than one from the thirties, and its not quiet.. which is a good thing, because it sounds lovely, especially with the exhaust cutouts open

as modern cars go, i agree, the japs have beaten everyone else with the Lexus, the new one even parks itself. a car that is bloody good, AND reliable!!
awini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2008, 23:39   #82
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London UK
Posts: 700
Thanked: 125 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by awini View Post
especially when the caretaker Sharif drives it. the car seems as if its coasting with the engine off.
Maybe it was

I've seen him drive off in that car having forgotten to advance the ignition lever and in other cars also. Great for red hot exhaust manifolds and engine damage. His latest exploit is to have a Ghost gearbox removed in order to send the perfectly useable clutch to the UK for relining because he couldn't engage 1st gear easily (crash gearbox) and now they can't get the gearbox back in. Oh dear. I was asked to do it but I just can't at the moment. Sharif and I go back a long time, far too long.....

Last edited by Julian UK : 6th May 2008 at 23:41.
Julian UK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2008, 23:55   #83
BHPian
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 496
Thanked: 261 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian UK View Post
Maybe it was

I've seen him drive off in that car having forgotten to advance the ignition lever and in other cars also. Great for red hot exhaust manifolds and engine damage. His latest exploit is to have a Ghost gearbox removed in order to send the perfectly useable clutch to the UK for relining because he couldn't engage 1st gear easily (crash gearbox) and now they can't get the gearbox back in. Oh dear. I was asked to do it but I just can't at the moment. Sharif and I go back a long time, far too long.....
you of course would know better... but BRG 1 is smooth and silent (with engine on) even without sharif around, isnt it?
awini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2008, 00:39   #84
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London UK
Posts: 700
Thanked: 125 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by awini View Post
but BRG 1 is smooth and silent (with engine on) even without sharif around, isnt it?
Absolutely, and it has the privilege of being stored properly and is even surviving its chameleon like changes of colour. At least the beauty of modern 2 pack fillers is that the denters don't have to file the metal down to nothing.
As this car's photos aren't present in the Rolls Royce thread I shall take the liberty of posting them now. After all it is a lovely car and a pleasure to drive.

Last edited by Rehaan : 7th May 2008 at 02:03. Reason: wrong images removed as per request.
Julian UK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2008, 02:50   #85
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: London UK
Posts: 700
Thanked: 125 Times
Default

DKG, we must apologise for polluting this Packard worship only thread with such unseemly references to Royal Rubbish trucks.
We might banter but that is a seperate amusement. Jokes aside...

Your workmanship and attention to detail in restoring this car deserves great admiration, I spent 20 years battling with the extra difficulties of achieving a good result in India, especially in summer and monsoon and alll the parts importation problems and I offer my sincere admiration of your tenacity and determination in pursuit of preserving a lovely car. Great stuff!

Last edited by Julian UK : 7th May 2008 at 02:52.
Julian UK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2008, 10:42   #86
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 928 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian UK View Post
DKG, we must apologise for polluting this Packard worship only thread with such unseemly references to Royal Rubbish trucks.

Now now Sir Julian, you really don't need to apologise.
With Karlos, Awini, Travancore, Alvis, Chhyanat you and me we have a great bunch of guys here and hope you realise I was trying to pull your leg on the RR's. Some carefree banter should be allowed.

I have worked closely with a genious of a mechanic and have had countless sessions where he explained with passion what made RR such phenomenal cars. The attention to detail, the focus on ensuring reliability is to say the least phenomenal. The human element in RR manufacture is what made those cars most impressive. I have seen a Phantom II engine start in a quarter turn and idle silently. Like you correctly put it perhaps not a design but an engineering masterpiece for sure the old RR's were. Not to mention the oil filled final drive etc. Its a pity I never recorded all those crazy details he used to ramble on about how the cylinders were slightly conical?? (did I hear him correct) and some special honing done for improved compression and holding. I forget all those details and was hoping I'd egg you to give us a discourse. But alas you gave in easily and accepted Packard supremacy (smile)

Packards are lovely cars but so are Cadillacs and Pierce Arrows and not to mention the mighty Duesenbergs, well the list is too long. I think if we start a discussion about Duesenbergs its enough to fill an entire thread.

Of all the people I have met (in person and online) only you and Manvendra seem to have had such a rich exposure. With Manvendra not being too interested on the mechanical front that makes you about as precious as the REAL Bentleys. So may I take this opportunity to request you to educate us all on all those finer details of RR mechanicals which made that car so legendary. Lets do this in the RR thread. The same we must in the Bentley thread, and Awini I was hoping you'd do justice to the Lagonda thread. I will attempt to do justice to Packards here (to the best of my limited abilities)

People do need to understand the little details about these marques that made them so special. Could we start first with the Ghost engine and details of manufacture and design, the casting of the two cylinder blocks with head etc. Its plus points and negatives, why they then advanced to separate heads etc. If you could do this with pictures that would be fantastic.

Then perhaps suspension issues, the change that allowed bodies to sit lower, the exhaust systems with free flow etc. So much to learn. Beyond the pictures we have so wonderfully gathered we need to start capturing engineering details also which would make each thread a phenomenal archive of material.

Already when you do a search on Google for some cars, our threads are popping up. So lets shift into second gear now and make these threads more educational.

PS You are being too generous with your praise as regards my handiwork. I am only a budding student of restoration and at best a sincere and hardworking one. But there's a lot more to learn and I hope in future if I get stuck (as I don't have my old mentor around anymore) hope I can pick your highly experienced brain!
DKG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2008, 10:54   #87
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 928 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian UK View Post
Whats this all about DKG, is this for pedestrians?
Attachment 13468
Surely some VIP visit requiring such absurd orders?? Our politicians are too scared they'll get blown up! So police ensure no vehicles are parked along roads. Just a minor hazard of being a politician in India
DKG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2008, 11:26   #88
DKG
Senior - BHPian
 
DKG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 3,706
Thanked: 928 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karlosdeville View Post
Oh absolutely. I had a spin in one when she was just launched, and promptly attempted to crank a running car. I was immedeately yelled at and told to look at the RPM meter. Truly marvelous.
You know Karlos the first time I drove an LS400 I actually did have to look at the RPM meter to see if the engine had started. It simply blew me away. And the way it surged ahead it almost seemed to have an electric motor. What Toyota has done with this car is truly mindboggling. Their NVH research and achievements should go into the hall of fame for this car

What is most astonishing is that in engine configurations its the inline six which is supposed to be the ideal config for balancing of primary and secondary vibrations of the crank. V12's are the other config. V8's are inherently unbalanced and crude in terms of vibration. That Toyota achieved their silksmoothness with a V8 is to say the least going against what everyone ever believed. They seemed to have re-written the rule book on engine config for smoothness.

Last edited by DKG : 7th May 2008 at 11:32.
DKG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2008, 17:27   #89
BHPian
 
vintagepoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Jeddah/Hyd
Posts: 411
Thanked: 40 Times
Default

Hi DKG,

Hope your Packard restoration is in final stages, please update us if possible. Also share with us your experience of engine, piston, tune-up. timing setup, Carb. setting, you refer manuals. etc, Do you need to
custom made any spare parts if not available.

Also I wish to see list of owners who has Packards in Hyderabad and in India as well if possible. Perhaps you can start a thread Packard cars in India, if mods agree.

Please write about your friends cars if possible, I am also interested to know who has Humber Hawk cars in Hyd or in India.

Thanks!
vintagepoint5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2008, 04:59   #90
BHPian
 
superavi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Posts: 283
Thanked: 11 Times
Default

Hey DKG,

How's the car restoration going? Where have you reached? Put up some pics if possible and do update us on the status of the Packard.

Superavi
superavi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A tribute to a Vintage Man : similar to a vintage car or vintage wine StarVegabond Shifting gears 3 12th October 2009 14:49
Pics: Haig Vintage and Classic Car and Bike Rally, Mumbai 24th Feb 08 karlosdeville Vintage Cars & Classics in India 112 16th March 2009 16:16
26th Jan 2007 Vintage/Classic bike/car show, Hyderabad Stanher Vintage Cars & Classics in India 18 26th March 2007 11:45


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 17:49.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks