Classic Bentleys in India

[speedy]

there are two 8 litre Bentleys i know off. one belonging to Mr.Bhogilal and the pictures are on the thread.
the other is of late Mr. Ronnie Khan. this is his car unrestored (this is the only picture i have), now it has been restored and like pointed out by Karl it is at Rishads Petrol Pump. will try and get the restored pictures of it.

[DKG]

A casual search on 8 litres revealed a lovely fact. Of the 100 cars produced two were modified by Mckenzie, one of which is the other Bentley in India!!!

This is stated in Wikipedia on the 8 litres ! Wow that makes Ronnie Khan's 8 litre a very special car. Apparently the modifications extended not just to the engine but involved lowering of the chassis too. Wow India has a killer machine I am thrilled.

It also explains how the car got a second engine. The original must've received the second Mckenzie modified unit apart from the chassis lowered. Did this happen in England before the car came to India or was the car sent back to England for this modification?

I think some research on Mckenzie would be in order

[DKG]

Some more interesting stuff on the Mckenzie modded 8 litres. The other 1931 8 litre to have been modified by McKenzie was YX 5125. Apparently YX 5125 was the last of the 8 litre chassis and was a short chassis of 12 feet (I thought the 8's had a 12 foot wheelbase) as ordered by the original owner Capt Vivian Hewitt. He apparently had a Le Man's racer style body commisioned for the car although no 8 litre ever ran the Le Man. Apparently Capt Hewitt never used YX 5125 and ironically it eventually passed onto another Hewett who in turn not only had a sporting body commisioned by Dottridge Brothers of London, he apparently also requested to make the car more interesting. A Mckenzie radiator 5 inches shorter was installed, the engine received a Mckenzie manifold with three carbs, lighter pistons, higher compression ratio of 6.25:1. These mods no doubt upped the performance and it was officially tested at 115 mph while the other 8 litres did 100 max. Hewett's son apparently claimed a 120 too!!

I got this info from ARTFACT.COM : Find, Price & Research Antiques and Fine Art. I gather this car was eventually sent to the US where it remains one of the most aweinspiring 8 litres.

Now guys, the Ronnie Khan 8 litre is also a Mckenzie special. So you can imagine what a beast it is.

Originally Posted by travancore

Bentley 8 Liter YR5083 in India

Does anyone know this car Chassis YR5083, Engine YR5083 (may now have Engine YM5050)
Registration GO 13
1st Body: A Mulliner Coupe; 2nd Body: India built tourer
1st Owner: CWC Wood

(source: http://www.vintagebentleys.org/carpages/go13.php)

Attachment 44972

Prem YR 5083 obviously preceded the Hewett Bentley YX 5125 which is the last 8 litre. So the above car is the first of the 2 Mckenzie modded 8 litres. I wonder how it received engine YM 5050. Was engine YM 5050 acquired in England while YR5083 remained in India and the Mckenzie modded engine sent to Bombay? Did YR 5083 receive the other mods like the lowered radiator? I am still unclear on the shortened chassis bit for YX 5125. How many of the 8 litres rode a 12 foot wheelbase chassis? Given YR 5083 is a coupe it too must be a short chassis 8 litre like YX 5125. So was YR 5083 with its original engine similar to YX 5125? Why did the engine get replaced?

Interesting, will need to do some more research

PS I just learnt that 8 litres came on 12 and 13 foot wheelbases. Bhogilal's car is on the 13 ft wb

Wow it gets even more interesting YR 5084 was a Binder coupe which was a Barclay demo and eventually broken up by Bentley Motors in 1938. Its engine YM 5050 ended up with the YR 5083 in India. Now since YR 5083 was also a 12 ft wb was the original engine a Mckenzie unit replaced by YM 5050? Is YM 5050 also a Mckenzie unit as in the lighter pistons etc? Hmmm a lot of questions!

Some more info. Of the 100 cars made only 3 were built as fixed head coupes on the shorter 12 ft WB chassis. YR 5083 is one of them, however sadly it had its top chopped off. So both the 8 litres in India had their tops chopped off. Sad

[DKG]

What we need to ascertain from the experts/further research is was YR 5083 (the Ronnie Khan car) originally a properly modded Mckenzie special with the lowered radiator, the lighter pistons, the higher compression, and the manifold with three carbs? If it were, then why did it receive YM 5050. Since the car presently has the Mckenzie manifold does it mean just the manifold was swapped from YR 5083 to YM 5050?

OR

Was YR 5083 never a proper Mckenzie special whereas YM5050, the Barclay demo was one, and when broken up its engine found its way to YR 5083.

We'd have to study the pictures of YR 5083 and compare with Bhogilal's car if it appears to have a shortened radiator too.

Guys I am not making any suggestions just thinking aloud and sharing my thoughts. We still need to state the facts clearly once ascertained. Perhaps the owners can clarify? How long have they had the car and do they know its full history? I'd think they would

[DKG]

Compare the following three pictures

YF 5014



YR 5083



YX5125



It is an acknowledged fact that YX5125 is a proper Mckenzie modded unit, with the lightened pistons, the three carb Mckenzie manifold and distinctly the 5 inch shorter radiator.

Now if you notice the pictures of YR 5083 and YF 5014 you see both to have a similar radiator height. Quite possibly in reality this may not be true but purely by judging from pictures this appears to be the case. Therefore is it appropriate to state that YR 5083 did not receive the lowered radiator?

Now take a look at YM 5050 from which YR 5083 received its engine



Clearly this car is with a lowered radiator and the vintage Bentley registry states it too.

Now the interesting bit is if YR 5083 presently having the engine of YM 5050 has the three carb manifold and YM 5050 is a lowered radiator car, is it fair to state that YM 5050 originally was a proper Mckenzie modded Bentley like YX 5125? And that YR 5083 was a regular 8 litre only to receive the Mckenzie modded engine from YM 5050 ?

I think so but then some more light thrown on the subject would clarify things better.

It would be nice to see YM 5050 get back its original engine and YR 5083 get the YR 5084 unit presently in YM 5050

Note: All pictures except the Bhogilal car are from Vintage Bentley cars (1919 to 1931) :: 3-litre, 6½-litre, 4½-litre, 4½-litre S/C, 8-litre & 4-litre :: Info & photographs

[DKG]

Originally Posted by DKG

Was YR 5083 never a proper Mckenzie special whereas YM5050, the Barclay demo was one, and when broken up its engine found its way to YR 5083.

Errata! The Barclay demo which was broken up was YR 5084, whose engine found its way into YM 5050. The engine from YM 5050 is now in YR 5083 which is the car in India. This is stated in the vintage Bentley registry

If you notice the Bentley records too many cars have had their engines swapped. My guess is owners may have pushed the cars requiring engine rebuild often. When cars came in for rebuilds possibly Bentley fitted rebuilt engines explaining why different engines found their way into different chassis? The old engine would be rebuilt again only to find its way into the next car requiring a rebuild? This appears to be the case. I can just visualise impatient wealthy owners wanting their cars back with rebuilt motors the very same day! allowing for this practice of swapping motors

On that score possibly YM 5050 may have required an engine rebuild. Bentley may have had the YR 5084 motor from the broken down demo and sent it for YM 5050 in exchange of YM 5050 engine. Later when YR 5083 in India required an engine rebuild the rebuilt YM 5050 motor found its way into the car? This could also have happened when YR 5083 was still in England. Seems logical but all these facts need to be confirmed. I could be horribly wrong about all that I've written. The record must be set straight for these most awesome machines. Unless it already has been and I am unable to source the proper history.

[karlosdeville]

Some comments from Harit.

Referring to the Rolls Bentley thread, some Bentley's intruded on the Rolls thread.
First, the 8 Litre Bentleys. There are two, Pranlal and Ronnie Khan. YR 5083 is the Ronnie Khan car. I am not so sure that this car was rebodied in India. I understand that she came in with an Englishman (perhaps a Scot) and was left behind. So who built the body? Cannot say 100% that the body is Indian. She was lying in Pune with Mallyas Bugatti and Pratabgarh's Lanchester, quite neglected. Believe she was once a part of Adenwalla collection. While in Pune, there was talk that brake drums were lost or damaged. Anyhow, there was some problem. Now she is being restored on Peddar Road and I think that it will be a great restoration.

Link 160 & 163. Sorry Speedy, you are on my radar again. Why these stories? Maybe Apte was your fathers friend, but he surely bought the car from Mysore. The car was lying in Woodlands at least since 1974 along with a black Rolls and a Bentley BMX 4472. That time I was still in school and a school mate was living in Woodlands. AND Mr. Rajneesh of the Ashram fame had just started his activities from Woodlands on the 1st floor. Just like your brother a few years later, we were watching, noting and spotting vintage cars in our very young days. Even then, if MRZ 7000 was with your family, it was could have been before 1974. So there is a 0.1% chance that you are correct. But I do not think so. But BMX 4472? To quote your words, " yes my father owned it for a brief period and since Apte's are family friends and uncle liked the car and pestered my father, so he gave it to him. the car was taken to their U.K. and then sold there itself. that time my father could only afford one car at a time and would use them for a brief period and give them to Mr.Bhogilal. one such example is BMX 4472" is sheer baloney. You see, Apte's son was with me in college, a few years senior to me. Till the very last day THEY sold it to Pranlal, THEY owned it. And drove it in Rally's. Apte also had a 2 seater sports Opel. Did you know? did that also pass through your family? The black Rolls with Apte was a smaller car, belonging to a friend of his who was a Maharaja and they returned it to him. If I do get a chance I will ask around. Really sorry to have to correct you like this, I have no grudge. But why?

Harit

[speedy]

Originally Posted by karlosdeville

Some comments from Harit.

Harit uncle this was told to me by my father itself. the pictures of the car is at Woodlands. So the next time you do speak to my father you could ask him. yes they were before i was born pre 78 and i am aware the car came from Mysore.
i dont mind you correcting me atall and being on your Radar, it would help me only.

[speedy]

Going through The AutoMobiles Of The Maharajas on page 284 i came across the Picture of the Bentley of The Holkars of Indore. There is no information regarding the car.
Here is a scanned copy of the page. The car looks stunning and beautiful. was hopeing if Julian and the other experts could shed some light on this car. Thank you.

[travancore]

Originally Posted by speedy

Going through The AutoMobiles Of The Maharajas on page 284 i came across the Picture of the Bentley of The Holkars of Indore. There is no information regarding the car.
Here is a scanned copy of the page. The car looks stunning and beautiful. was hopeing if Julian and the other experts could shed some light on this car. Thank you.

Speedy, think it is a 1936 going by the book, ...the car in front 3Q view (registration HSC-8) is also shown on centerspread page 282-283
Besides the Bentley, the car in the picture on the top left below is identified in the book as a Bugatti. Any ideas anyone on the idendity (T50 ?)

[Julian UK]

Originally Posted by speedy

Going through The AutoMobiles Of The Maharajas on page 284 i came across the Picture of the Bentley of The Holkars of Indore. There is no information regarding the car.
Here is a scanned copy of the page. The car looks stunning and beautiful. was hopeing if Julian and the other experts could shed some light on this car. Thank you.

Hi Speedy, I'm not an expert, they tend to concentrate on one marque or even model, but I do know this is the 4 1/4 litre 1936 Gurney Nutting Tourer, chassis number #B11 GP, engine number #N3BU and I understand it is still in Delhi and has not been exported. These photos were posted in post #19 by Karl.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

I understand it is still in Delhi and has not been exported

Can we confirm this please, as the last I heard of this car someone mentioned the owner had exchanged it for a Landcruiser belonging to a Middle Eastern Embassy staff and the car went out under the diplomatic immunity given to Embassy personal effects. The story also goes the owner crashed the Landcruiser and eventually ended up with a Innova. I hope this is all just a story and as you say the car remains in Delhi. I would be the happiest to hear that as I consider this the prettiest Bentley I've ever seen even.

[speedy]

Originally Posted by Julian UK

Hi Speedy, I'm not an expert, they tend to concentrate on one marque or even model, but I do know this is the 4 1/4 litre 1936 Gurney Nutting Tourer, chassis number #B11 GP, engine number #N3BU and I understand it is still in Delhi and has not been exported. These photos were posted in post #19 by Karl.

My first thought was that its could be the same car, but since it just mentioned "The Maharajas Bentley" i was in doubt.
The car used to stand at Defence Colony if i remember right and i am not sure of it being exported. Will confirm on the same.

[Ceylon]

Apart from the following, are there any other W O Bentleys remaining in India?

1. 1927 Bentley 3 litre (Currently in Indore)
2. Bentley 6.5 litre Registration no : CHN2 (Currently in Delhi)
3. 1931 Bentley 8 Litre Chassis no : YF 5014 Engine no : YF 5014 Registration no WBB 9206 (Owner Pranlal Bhogilal)
4. Bentley 8 Litre Chassis no : YR 5083 Engine no : YM 5050 (ex- Ronnie Khan)

[Julian UK]

Originally Posted by Ceylon

are there any other W O Bentleys remaining in India?

I sincerely hope so.



Not to be confused with WO Bentleys.

Here is another of the nicer Derby built Bentleys safe in a collection in Delhi. The least said the more can be posted.

This is 1939 Derby Bentley 4 1/4 litre chassis no. #B77 MX HJ Mulliner DHC (concealed hood) 1st Owner Maharajah of Bhopal.
Restored in India, I did about 10 days work on it a couple of years ago on a trip. It was in poor condition but has turned out well. Another lovely Derby Bentley. When the whole list of India Derby Bentleys is complete I will post them all together. Only a few to go.











Photos courtesy of the car owner's family.