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Old 10th August 2008, 17:25   #16
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Originally Posted by vcash View Post

Anjan,
I am confused here - Are you stating these as facts or is this a wish list? I.E. Can classic and vintage cars be exported right now?

To play devil's advocate - what happens if a classic car lover has to relocate to another country and wants to take his classics with him?

Or alternatively, what if someone wants to send their rusted car to an overseas restorer for a high quality job?
There is a law banning their exports right now. The Commerce Ministry and the Customs oversee the implementation of this law.No for restoration too the car cannot be taken away to some foreign land unless some loopholes are exploited.
And taking away the classic/vintage or any older car to suit one's transfer of residency is also not permissible.
But despite these laws cars are dismantled and packed in some mode or the other and are shipped for export abroad, hoodwinking the authorities.This is how the fully restored Rolls Royces have surfaced in old car showrooms in the west. "The Rolls Royces in India" thread shows many such examples that were taken away for a pittance here from old garages.
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Old 16th August 2008, 14:24   #17
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An article that appeared in SUN magazine sometime in March 1979
SOPs for Vintage and Classic Cars and Bikes-dharias-gift.jpg
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Old 16th August 2008, 16:19   #18
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Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
Thanks V16 for your support. As I have recorded I had emailed to the VCCCI some months back sounding them about these proposals but there has been no response from them.
Typical. I would be surprised if you got a response, ever.
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Old 18th August 2008, 16:42   #19
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Some comments from Harit.

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About sops. Well, who cares about our heritage. In India we generally do not care about our heritage, whatever it is, monuments, antiques, cars, bikes whatever. Let me explain.
Today, the Chinese are all over the world attending auctions to buy back their heritage lost over the centuries. But we in India have the beaurocracy and customs under some disinterested ministry blocking all attempt by any citizen to do something to preserve Indian heritage. Look at what happened to Vijay Mallya when he purchased Tipu Sultans Sword. First he brought it into the country, the customs asked HOW? (DARE YOU), then he took it out and again the customs asked HOW? End result, now it is not in India. So you see, the ministry and the beaurocrats do not apply their mind and do not push for suitable amendments or changes in the existing laws. If you go strictly as per law, then you are an idiot if you wish to purchase and preserve an old and rare car. Perhaps this is the reason why so many have left the country. And so many got scrapped. You can never import old parts legally and I know of so many who did and got into trouble.
There was a strong attempt by certain influencial collectors to get the ban on import of vintage cars lifted. There were to be certain restrictions like these will be only for display (museum/tourism) purpose, special registration numbers, only very limited road use. What is the point? We all know that unused cars tend to deteriorate.
There are many car clubs and associations in India but they are not united. If they were, they could perhaps make a strong representation to the government to change rules. Many politicians do have cars, others are very enthusiastic at least in the speeches which they give when they attend a rally and so we have to get a movement going. We cannot fabricate all the required parts, one-off engine blocks are uneconomical to make.
We need some sensible changes in the import of used spares for vintage and classic cars.
We need some changes in the registration of cars having no book papers or having unpaid taxes over the years. At one time there was a provision in Mumbai to get things in order by giving an undertaking but I know of only one prominent example where this worked. There was even a notification for getting cars with lost books registered but the local club did not support, maybe there were legal complications.
Lastly, there should be some rationale in the ban of old imported cars. It is fine to say that the car should be right hand drive and not older than 3 years, and the model should have been tested at Ahmednagar but we are effectively banning all vintage and classic cars. Such cars would anyway come in limited numbers to India and not creat a big imbalance to our trade and pollution balance. However, they would help to keep the high and climbing prices in check and would help get some fresh stock into the country.
So we can keep on writing but no Babu in the government seems to be able to move things for us. Must keep on trying.
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Old 18th August 2008, 19:28   #20
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Originally Posted by karlosdeville View Post
Some comments from Harit.
Thanks a lot Karl. Nice comments by Harit which are most practical and cannot be ignored.
Yes the bureaucracy and babudom are hidebound. But lets see- if I get some VIP response I shall be glad to post it right here.
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Old 20th August 2008, 00:07   #21
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More comments from Harit.

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This is an interesting thread for another reason. Never mind, there is no interest by authorities to help the vintage car owners and it is every man for himself. So some get away with imports while others get stranded. Every item cannot be hand carried and for larger collections this would take years.
To be clear, vintage and classic cars have come to India on custom carnets. Sometime in 1975, give or take a year, a steam truck from UK being driven by students was in Mumbai, coincidently during a rally and took part. Now to get the details, one would have to contact IARC who organised rally's at that time and find Mr. Pandit who left IARC ages ago. I wonder where is he now. In the 1970's 1000's of vehicles came by road to India, supposedly driven by Hippies. End destinateion was almost everytime Goa, some were shuttling between Khatmandu and Goa on German customs licence plates (the oval ones). The most common were the VW Vans of all ages, Land Rovers, Ford Transit vans, 2CV's, Beetles (actually saw a used yellow Deutsch Post beetle with the insignia scratched off) and a few others. All were from Europe only. So that time comming in with a vehicle was easier. This stopped with Iran and Afghanistan troubles. But cars were also exported. Legally there was a provision that if you could prove family ownership and long provenance, a car could go. The 8 cylinder Pratapgarh Lanchester in one, the SS Jag Karl has put in a thread is another. Then a few cars did go out for restoration. How it was managed and how the customs did valuation on reimport I do not know but the Rolls thread has a few Indian cars which were restored abroad.
Now interesting is link 17, about cars smuggled out. Many cars did go out, some before the ban and some after and many were saved. This could be a new thread.
Following the article in Link 17, it omits one of the most prominent cars sent out, the Duesenberg by Sheikh Mukhtar. The Patiala Maybach was sent to the US and advertised for sale/auction about 3 to 4 years ago. It was an open tourer, now red in colour. I alwys wondered what had happened to the Isotta Fraschini, at one time it was standing on a petrol pump in Mumbai Kemps Corner.
About cars saved, the Hispano of Alwar was saved at the Nepal border, caught while an attempt was made to take her out and suffered gunshots. Pranlal bought the car from Kolkotta customs.
Another car saved was a Rolls which came from a collection being disbanded in Gujrat. Here the "bluebook" was altered to show a later year. Somehow this was noticed in the nick of time and the car returned to the dealer in Juhu. The car had engine problems, is supposed to have been sold on to Hyderabad but I have never seen her again. Dark tinted glasses and a sedan. This dealer also bought cars for a Delhi based guy. A Standard Avon was bought, but something went wrong and now she is with a high official of VCCCI. But an XK 150 and an SS tourer did get away. Similarly more cars must have been saved.
The cars that got away were plenty, but I know of a few stories. The Swan car all know about, but what about the Rolls's that went with it? In around 1980 a Kolkotta restorer brought a rare Sunbeam Talbot for a rally to Mumbai. She was yellowish, and had a peculiar non-original pair of horns fitted. From the Rally she went to this Juhu dealer for a ridiculous sum at that time. After a few months, she appeared in a magazine under 'discovery' as a car having belonged to a Maharaja in Indonesia. This was a very rare car with only few left in the world. The restorer had even shown pictures of the car as discovered unrestored and being rolled out of its garage.
Then there was the Farman. Bought by a Rolls expert from UK along with some other Rolls. He is a Rolls authority, owns some ex-India Rolls's and was entertained by the vintage fraternity of higher level in Mumbai. The car was stored in Byculla for some time and I had got a word about her going out from a friend in London. And she left our shores.
Many owners just did not want to sell locally. It was never that there was no customer for these cars in India. Many old collectors were there who even today have magnificient collections and they did pay good money. But some of our esteemed owners were charmed by the foreign buyers and let go. There was no need for the Swan car to go out so late, by that time the tribe of Indian collectors had already swollen and they could have bought it.
Just a few thought released by this link 17.
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Old 21st August 2008, 13:55   #22
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1935 Duesenberg Speedster roadster belonging to Maharaja Holkar of Indore,considered to be one of its kind, went out of the country and appeared in U.S in 1959, Was that in similar manner( smuggled)?
Any idea....

Last edited by agspins : 21st August 2008 at 13:59.
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Old 16th October 2008, 19:08   #23
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This post here is related to the thread which I had started. Since I am taking the matter to its logical conclusion, I would like to apprise members that the matter was discussed in detail by me with Mr Vijay Babu Darda , Member of Parliament and Chairman, Lokmat Group, who gave me a very patient hearing. He is himself an automobile lover and quickly grasped the points. He agreed with whatever my contention was and the letter attached below addressed to Mr Chandrashaker, Cabinet Secretary, Govt of India, New Delhi, was sent on 29th Sept 2008.
I personally take this opportunity to thank Mr Darda for his kind initiative in this matter. I am sure no politician will like to even touch such issues that do not involve vote bank politics or any populist measure even with a bargepole. Mr Darda is a breed apart. I will keep everyone posted with the developments through this thread.

SOPs for Vintage and Classic Cars and Bikes-vijaybabu-darda.jpg

Last edited by GTO : 17th October 2008 at 11:09. Reason: Lets keep personal discussions off the public forum. Thanks
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Old 16th October 2008, 23:11   #24
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That is a remarkable effort made Anjan. Thanks a ton and lets hope something comes of it.
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Old 17th October 2008, 03:19   #25
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Thank you Anjan. I really wish all the vintage clubs get together for this cause. Thank you again.
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Old 17th October 2008, 21:16   #26
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Kindly accept my hearty congratulations for your commendable efforts. It would help us follow up with the Government of India, if the note mentioned in the letter is made available, based on which Heritage Motoring Club of India, can follow up the matter.

Thank you for your efforts.

S.B.Jatti
Vice president
Heritage Motoring Club of India
New Delhi.



Quote:
Originally Posted by anjan_c2007 View Post
This post here is related to the thread which I had started. Since I am taking the matter to its logical conclusion, I would like to apprise members that the matter was discussed in detail by me with Mr Vijay Babu Darda , Member of Parliament and Chairman, Lokmat Group, who gave me a very patient hearing. He is himself an automobile lover and quickly grasped the points. He agreed with whatever my contention was and the letter attached below addressed to Mr Chandrashaker, Cabinet Secretary, Govt of India, New Delhi, was sent on 29th Sept 2008.
I personally take this opportunity to thank Mr Darda for his kind initiative in this matter. I am sure no politician will like to even touch such issues that do not involve vote bank politics or any populist measure even with a bargepole. Mr Darda is a breed apart. I will keep everyone posted with the developments through this thread.
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Old 17th October 2008, 22:59   #27
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Congratulations, Anjan. You have made a beginning where most of us would fear to tread. Wish you all the best, and we're all available for any help / follow ups / mails required to be sent, to further the cause.
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Old 17th October 2008, 23:24   #28
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Congratulations Anjan for an astounding effort. A step like this is always needed to start a movement.
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Old 18th October 2008, 19:17   #29
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Thanks DKG,TuffRyder,S BJatti,SuperSelect, V-16 lets hope something good happens. I am on the job.
S.B.Jatti I will pm the note to you soon for follow up.
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Old 18th October 2008, 21:07   #30
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I disagree with preventing export. What if someone wanted to take part at pebble beach or wanted in the Mille Miglia or... etc. And I just recently came across an extremely rare car 9one of only about 20 ever made and fewer remaining -- with handbeaten aluminum body. the only way this will be really well restored is to take it back to italy.

I think all cars prior to 60 (or 40 years or older or... chose your cut-off) should be made duty free for import and exportable as well. Then let free market prevail. I think india's economics will be strong enough that there will be more of these special cars in india as many more will be imported than exported. A more developed restoration industry may even develop which would benefit both local as well as foreign cars.

in the long term I think protectionism will be counter-productive as people will somhow figure out a way to get it out, while fewer would bother with the hassle of smuggling in with the net result of fewer cars over time.

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